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post #4861 of 10451
I see a couple of new items on the FCC page for KGO:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&slon2=&size=9

They now have a construction permit for 72 KW on the auxiliary antenna.

They filed an application to install a circular polarized antenna (not elliptical) as the new main antenna. I guess that's why they think they'll have a better indoor signal. Time will tell. They had to decrease their ERP by 200 watts because the center of radiation on the new antenna is slightly higher.

I noticed that KNTV's nightlight service went off yesterday.

Chuck
post #4862 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by kev4321 View Post

San Francisco, California
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=6
click KRON-TV

says 4.1 is 480i
says 4.2 is 720p

So much for conventional wisdom saying that the HD channel will be on .1.

I've only been getting digital TV for 7 months or so. But in that time I've yet to see a non-HD subchannel come in when an adjacent HD subchannel isn't. It is either all are fine or none are.

Except yesterday I did notice my reception of KMTP was breaking up on all subchannels except the one that was running a low resolution rebroadcast of NASA's live feed of activity in space. Some guy floating around doing some task...

update1(
KMTP doesn't have any HD subchannels, of course. I just meant this was the first instance of experiencing something like this. I would've thought I would have seen it more often on the other channels by now.
)

I am located in Santa Rosa, about 60 miles from the transmitters and am using a 4221 clone. Both prior to June 12 and post June 12 I have had a problem on marginal stations receiving HD subchannels while receiving the adjacent non-HD subchannel. This has occurred recently on both UHF and VHF channels - KTVU2(RF44), KGO7 and KNTV11(RF12). 2.2, 7.2,7.3,11.2 and 11.3 are often clear when the HD channels are not clear. I am waiting until the dust clears in October to upgrade from my antenna and expect reception to significantly improve.

Has anyone else experienced a problem on marginal stations receiving HD subchannels while receiving the adjacent non-HD subchannel?
post #4863 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by kev4321 View Post

San Francisco, California
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=6
...

Except yesterday I did notice my reception of KMTP was breaking up on all subchannels except the one that was running a low resolution rebroadcast of NASA's live feed of activity in space. Some guy floating around doing some task...

update1(
KMTP doesn't have any HD subchannels, of course. I just meant this was the first instance of experiencing something like this. I would've thought I would have seen it more often on the other channels by now.
)

Do not trust KMTP for anything at all. Nobody is watching the store.

I am getting poor reception, somewhat strange in that in the Summer I can park my UHF antenna in one direction and get all the stations I really want, KMTP included. That is not the case currently.

With all the work being done on SUTRO, while Larry may disagree, I suspect that KMTP is the loser in any decisions as to what stations to insure are being sent passably. Their viewer ship is so very very low that nobody complains I suspect.

Clocks being set wrong, channels with "Choose Sat Channel", "Video Source not connected", wrong programs being sent, Sat pointed in the wrong direction so the signal is breaking up, looks similar to your receiving 33 poorly, all have been seen. Program Listings are incorrect since PDT started, ~ 3 Months so far. The list goes on and on, that is just a small sample.

Do not trust KMTP for anything at all. Nobody is watching the store.

SHF
post #4864 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by wm_tell1 View Post

I have had a problem on marginal stations receiving HD subchannels while receiving the adjacent non-HD subchannel....Has anyone else experienced a problem on marginal stations receiving HD subchannels while receiving the adjacent non-HD subchannel?

Bill, there is nothing "adjacent" about DTV subchannels. All subchannels are transmitted on the same carrier in data packets that carry information about which packet belongs to which program, as well as a bunch of other data such as what programs are coming up in the next day or so, etc. If you can receive any one of those subchannels you can receive all of them. If your receiver doesn't display all subchannels of a particular station, you (or the station) have a software/firmware problem--not an antenna problem.
post #4865 of 10451
I've had the same experience as the other fellow. In other words, if I have reception problems on any sub-channel in a series; all subchannels are always affected the same way.
post #4866 of 10451
Exactly. There can be no difference in physical reception of different subchannels on a single channel, since they're all the same! Differences between them can only arise because of programming errors in either the receiver's or the sender's equipment such that the data are not properly interpreted even though they are received. IOW, it is senseless to look for a solution to such a problem at the antenna.
post #4867 of 10451
Hi,

Further thoughts about KMTP.

First, I wish to clarify that when I say "Nobody is watching the store.", I mean Palo Alto not Sutro.

They started with as gift from KQED, you can look that up in :

http://www.search.com/reference/KMTP

I have long wondered where their money was coming from.

They put up a slide for "World Channel COMING soon" and it was there for a very long time but a couple of months ago real programming started.

With the inattention given to KMTP, I just realized that the "World Channel" may now be their main product, not the KMTP DTV station.

Can anyone find another carrier for the "World Channel", on a SAT transponder or a cable network in a different market?

Their money may now be coming in just like other programming on cable networks, paid for by the cable subscribers.

This may be a hard thing to find out about as the "World Channel" is not in English and the cable networks may be overseas.

The staff, if they have any, are working on the "World Channel" and volunteers who can keep KMTP operating, may not be able to come in and fix problems quickly.

This matches up with why problems are not fixed during normal business hours, when you would expect them to be corrected.

SHF
post #4868 of 10451
Ever since KGO started to broadcast their digital signal on VHF 7, my ATSC tuner card will not pick it up. Prior to June 12th, they were on UHF 56 and my ATSC signal was great! I'm only 3 miles line of sight to Sutro, and use a stripped RG-6 coax cable as my indoor antenna. It was fine, before, and all the other locals are coming in fine. Just can't get KGO as of this past week.

Immediatly after the switchover, I was able to pick up the signal, but as of the last few days, nothing. Any word if anything is going on with KGO as of late?
post #4869 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Further thoughts about KMTP.

They started with as gift from KQED

"Gift" is not the word I would use for the FCC yanking a license from one owner and giving it to another.

Quote:


They put up a slide for "World Channel COMING soon" and it was there for a very long time but a couple of months ago real programming started.

Weren't they running that programming part time on KMTP analog before they had a digital channel available, or am I misremembering?

Quote:


Can anyone find another carrier for the "World Channel", on a SAT transponder or a cable network in a different market?

Well, WC's website (http://www.worldchannelus.com/index.html) says they're also on KBTV, a low-power station in Sacto. Can anyone there verify that?


Patty
post #4870 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by wintertime View Post

"Gift" is not the word I would use for the FCC yanking a license from one owner and giving it to another.

Well, WC's website (http://www.worldchannelus.com/index.html) says they're also on KBTV, a low-power station in Sacto. Can anyone there verify that?


Patty

The FCC give and the FCC take away. KQED I am sure had the money but chose to not stop their actions.

Look at all the programming KQED, KTEH and KQET have now as part of NCPB.

I did not watch KMTP until I found "In Focus" and that is all that interests me.

> Weren't they running that programming part time on KMTP analog before they had a digital channel available, or am I misremembering?

As long as it took from I first saw the slide to when actual programming started was a very long time. I do not think anything like the current programming on "World Channel" ever was on analog.

KMTP had "ARTS", German "DV", that's all I remember from before KMTP-DT started. Some "DV" was in German, that I think has stopped now.

Did you enjoy the Wedding Channel on KMTP-DT?

When I looked up why they had to pay the FCC penalty money, I could not understand why the same thing could not be applied to all of NCPB, KCSM and KRCB.

What I see on my brief looks at the "World Channel" make me think that another penalty is in order unless they have changed their license type.

SHF
post #4871 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzy View Post

Ever since KGO started to broadcast their digital signal on VHF 7, my ATSC tuner card will not pick it up. Prior to June 12th, they were on UHF 56 and my ATSC signal was great! I'm only 3 miles line of sight to Sutro, and use a stripped RG-6 coax cable as my indoor antenna. It was fine, before, and all the other locals are coming in fine. Just can't get KGO as of this past week.

Immediatly after the switchover, I was able to pick up the signal, but as of the last few days, nothing. Any word if anything is going on with KGO as of late?

I was watching it this morning. I'm 40+ miles away. It's a very low signal, right now, for me. Did you try moving your piece of coax around a little? Did you try a re-scan?
post #4872 of 10451
I stripped off more of the jacket from the RG-6 and now have about 12 inches of copper exposed, did a rescan and 7.1 came in a little better. But no way nearly as strong as it used to be when KGO was broadcasting on channel 56. When they went to "7" that's when my problems started.
BTW, using a Dvico fusion 5 RT ATSC HD tuner card. Also my Vizio tunes KGO ok, but I get some pixelating at times. Never used to prior to 6/12.

Currently receiving KGO ok, but still not pleased. And to remind all, I can see Sutro out my window, which is maybe 3 miles away.
post #4873 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by wintertime View Post

Well, WC's website (http://www.worldchannelus.com/index.html) says they're also on KBTV, a low-power station in Sacto. Can anyone there verify that?

Patty

KBTV is analog 8 which I can now see a little since KSBW analog went off. I've seen programming in various languages on there but I cannot receive KMTP on 33 for a comparison because I have an LP 33 just 14 miles from here. Once KSBW gets on their omni antenna KBTV will disappear again.

Chuck
post #4874 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzy View Post

use a stripped RG-6 coax cable as my indoor antenna. I stripped off more of the jacket from the RG-6 and now have about 12 inches of copper exposed.

As a wild experiment, try using a pair of rabbit ears. Your reception will improve.
post #4875 of 10451
Hrm. Someone mentioned before there was some NASA stuff on KMTP. I just looked, and it looks like KMTP 32-4, which shows as WTV (World TV?) is carrying NASA Select (or one of the other NASA channels). This is pretty cool. I remember getting that channel when I lived in Daytona Beach, FL. Most the cable systems there carried it I presume because of the proximity to Cape Canaveral. Of course, here we have NASA Ames. Seems to be identifying itself simply as "NASA Television".
post #4876 of 10451
Googling kmtp wtv wedding presently gets 9 matches. Here are a few of the matches:

http://www.rabbitears.info/search.ph...ork=Wedding+TV

WTV - Wedding Television
http://www.wtvweddingtelevision.com/

(I knew to include "wedding" in the search because there was a time when they showed boring wedding shows over and over. Okay... boring to me. Maybe someone loves watching wedding preparation stuff)

Today no more weddings take place. NASA has effectively taken over. You will be assimilated.

update2(
On the cover of today's San Jose Mercury newspaper:

Life in a Year: Wedding Day, a life-changing event like no other
http://www.mercurynews.com/peninsula/ci_12689762

"$86 billion wedding industry more than resilient in the grimmest of economic times."

"In the United States, where there were 2.2 million weddings in 2008, the average cost was $21,814, according to The Wedding Report."

Kind of goes against what I was saying...
)

I've never had access to NASA TV other than in small snippets. NASA coverage of live activity is interesting, to a degree. But their show and tell productions had the worst presentation and narration I've ever seen. It really was painful to watch.

Engineering is in my family. So the potential to be something interesting to watch is there. But bad production is bad production.

update1(
Googling kmtp wtv nasa presently gets 6 matches. The most relevant of which is the same page of this thread that we are now on.
)
post #4877 of 10451
Ah it was meant to be Wedding TV. I see. Yeah, you're not going to see much slick production from NASA. But the Live coverage of launches and missions is great to have.

But even without slick production, some of their presentations are pretty interesting to watch. Or maybe I'm just a bit geeky. I subscribe to the Nasa TV youtube channel and regularly watch the more interesting videos. For instance, recently they put up a video of the LRO/LCROSS launch which had some amazing onboard camera shots of the entire launch. You basically got to ride into space on the side of a rocket with really good quality pictures.

There are definitely issues with KMTP though. It went off the air twice this morning as I was watching it. I don't know if it was just temporary reception issues, but if it was it didn't affect any other channel. The image started breaking up badly, then froze. Then my TV put "No video or audio" in the screen. Then "No Signal" a minute later. "No one minding the store" I guess. :P
post #4878 of 10451
NASA: Destination Tomorrow
8:00am to 8:30am on 2.2

And this one isn't a live feed of space activity. But a non-boring production. Imagine that.

http://destination.larc.nasa.gov/ appeared along the bottom edge a few times.

update1(
I just searched zap2it.com for NASA and found:

Code:
Destination Tomorrow on 2.2:
Sun  7/ 5  8:00-8:30am
Sun  7/12  8:00-8:30am

NASA Connection on 2.2:
Sat  7/ 4  8:00-8:30am
Sat  7/11  8:00-8:30am

NASA Connect on 28 KFTL-CA:
Sat  7/ 4  5:00-5:30am

NASA SCI Files on 28 KFTL-CA:
Fri  7/ 3  5:00-5:30pm
Fri  7/10  5:00-5:30pm

NASA Education File on 32.1:
Mon  6/29  5:00-5:30pm
... every day of the week ...
Fri  7/10  5:00-5:30pm
I'd guess the KFTL-CA on 28 will now be on 28.1 as well.

I wonder if there is any real differene between "NASA Connect" and "NASA Connection".
)
post #4879 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xn0r View Post

...you're not going to see much slick production from NASA. But the Live coverage of launches and missions is great to have.

But even without slick production, some of their presentations are pretty interesting to watch. ... :P

Hi,

I caught NASA TV on the web when it was showing, for several hours, the painting of a wall.

I just rotated my UHF antenna to get KMTP and it looks like 32.4 is showing a view inside the Space Station.

> Then "No Signal" a minute later. "No one minding the store" I guess. :P

I suspect the Hot Weather we are currently having effect on the temperature inversion if all of KMTP sub channels were bad at the same time.

If the other sub channels were OK at the same time, then Master Control in Palo Alto is not blessed by human attendance which I believe is most of the time.

The best "In Focus" show was about removing a sunken ship from the middle of the English Channel.

It had to be sawed apart with a set of diamond encrusted metal beads strung on a wire. The salvage contractor was required to insure that none, no parts at all, of the autos onboard, could never have ended up in any place except a blast furnace.

SHF
post #4880 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzy View Post

Ever since KGO started to broadcast their digital signal on VHF 7, my ATSC tuner card will not pick it up. Prior to June 12th, they were on UHF 56 and my ATSC signal was great! I'm only 3 miles line of sight to Sutro, and use a stripped RG-6 coax cable as my indoor antenna. It was fine, before, and all the other locals are coming in fine. Just can't get KGO as of this past week.

Immediatly after the switchover, I was able to pick up the signal, but as of the last few days, nothing. Any word if anything is going on with KGO as of late?

KGO is presently using their auxiliary antenna located at Level 1 of Sutro Tower while the tower leg that their main antenna is on is being worked on. Maybe Level 1 is behind a hill for you, so that's why you're not receiving the station. They are getting a new circularly polarized antenna atop the tower and its supposed to be ready for use in mid-July, around July 15.

The wavelength for channel 7 is much longer than the wavelength for channel 24. (KGO was on 24, KTVU was on 56.) You will need a much longer receiving element for a channel 7 signal than for a channel 24 signal. That's why removing more of the shielding helped.

Larry
SF
post #4881 of 10451
Anyone know what is happening with KTVJ-LP? TVFool is listing them as remapping to 20.1, Another website is listing them as remapping to 36.1 All agree their actual channel will be 4 when they start digital broadcasting.

Problem is that all of those channel numbers are in use by other channels. KICU maps to 36, KRON maps to 4, and KOFY maps to 20.

I don't believe my tuners can handle multiple channels remapped to the same number.
post #4882 of 10451
They started with as gift from KQED, you can look that up in :
the gift from KQED was a ch 32 transmitter, feed line to transmitting antenna, and the transmitting antenna.
milt
post #4883 of 10451
Quote:


The wavelength for channel 7 is much longer than the wavelength for channel 24. (KGO was on 24, KTVU was on 56.) You will need a much longer receiving element for a channel 7 signal than for a channel 24 signal. That's why removing more of the shielding helped.

Thanks for the explanation about why when KGO was on "24", vs their current "7" my reception was better. I knew there had to be a reason why.
post #4884 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by kev4321 View Post

Today no more weddings take place. NASA has effectively taken over.

Wedding channel... NASA channel... seems a bit redundant. Why would we need two channels dedicated to watching people either go to the stars, or go down in flames?
post #4885 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAP View Post

Anyone know what is happening with KTVJ-LP?

I don't think the owner has gotten that far yet as to have thought about the mapping.

- Trip
post #4886 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAP View Post

Anyone know what is happening with KTVJ-LP? TVFool is listing them as remapping to 20.1, Another website is listing them as remapping to 36.1 All agree their actual channel will be 4 when they start digital broadcasting.

Problem is that all of those channel numbers are in use by other channels. KICU maps to 36, KRON maps to 4, and KOFY maps to 20.

I don't believe my tuners can handle multiple channels remapped to the same number.

I had an interesting conversation with the KTVJ Chief Engineer a while back about this exact subject. They aren't sure yet what they're going to do. They will be ready to come on the air sometime in November, the last I heard. Channel 3 at the same site on Mt. Tam will be coming on about the same time.

In our discussion the CE said that if they followed proper protocol, they should probably use 57. Since they'll be on 4, but can't use 4, 20 or 36, they need to refer back to the station that was on 4 and is using that channel number now. He thinks the appropriate choice will be the previous channel number that KRON used. Their lawyers are going to find out the proper number they should use before the time comes.

Larry
SF
post #4887 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEEPFRINGEGUY View Post

Well, ground clutter has a lot to do with it. Remember, TVfool doesn't know about ground clutter and buildings, etc. By the way, when I key in my address at TVfool the results I get are so inaccurate it's not even funny.

I'd go with the 4228HD if I were you. You probably don't need a pre-amp either. I'd start without it and see what you get.

The Novato story continues...

I think you're right about tvfool... I plugged a spare Channel Master Spartan 3 preamp into the attic-mounted 4228, connected the antenna to just one tuner, and got this channel list.

Where tvfool said KGO should be one of the strongest signals, I found it to be the weakest. And KTVU (at -92 dBm according to tvfool) had a more than adequate signal.

I'm still not getting KPIX (which my mom really wants) but KPIX is on a temporary, lower location on Sutro tower until October.

The problem is that a preamp doesn't really work well for more than one tuner AFAIK, and my dad wants to connect to four tuners. I still think outside on the roof is still the best option for them. I'm wearing him down.
post #4888 of 10451
1. Outside on the roof is better.
2. If you put the amplifier close to the antenna it will improve signal to noise ratio at the far end of the down lead.
3. You can use a splitter to send the amplified signal to several tuners (just make sure that your splitter doesn't cut the power to the amplifier by blocking the dc path from its power supply).
4. It's likely that TVFool's data base is not up to the second w.r.t. transmitter antenna relocations and temporary powers.
post #4889 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by rackerby View Post

The Novato story continues...

I think you're right about tvfool... I plugged a spare Channel Master Spartan 3 preamp into the attic-mounted 4228, connected the antenna to just one tuner, and got this channel list.

Where tvfool said KGO should be one of the strongest signals, I found it to be the weakest. And KTVU (at -92 dBm according to tvfool) had a more than adequate signal.

I'm still not getting KPIX (which my mom really wants) but KPIX is on a temporary, lower location on Sutro tower until October.

The problem is that a preamp doesn't really work well for more than one tuner AFAIK, and my dad wants to connect to four tuners. I still think outside on the roof is still the best option for them. I'm wearing him down.

It looks like you're doing pretty well now. Should be a lot better after Sutro is finished. I'll bet your mom will get her KPIX back then. What's "AFAIK?"

If you're going to put a splitter in, put it in after the pre-amp power supply; ie. between the pre-amp powersupply unit and the TV's; not between the antenna and the pre-amp powersupply unit. Also, the monster splitters are noticably better than the radio-shack models. I think monster makes a 4:1 splitter. They're worth the extra money.

There used to be a more accurate version of that analysis software at Antennaweb.org; but, they've changed something on that site since last year; it's not as good as TVfool now, for my address. In fact, it's totally useless to me now.
post #4890 of 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by rackerby View Post

... I'm still not getting KPIX (which my mom really wants) but KPIX is on a temporary, lower location on Sutro tower until October.

The problem is that a preamp doesn't really work well for more than one tuner AFAIK, and my dad wants to connect to four tuners. I still think outside on the roof is still the best option for them. I'm wearing him down.

Interstingly KPIX29 is the strongest signal from Sutro for me here in Fair Oaks followed closely by KQED30 and KMTP33. I figured KPIX must be at their final power and antenna height. I can hardly wait until they're done.

I am running more tuners here that I can count; easily above 4. I am not running a pre-amp at the antenna, but I am running an amplifier as soon as the signal gets into the house. Of course, then that signal is split many times.
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