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post #6601 of 10449
My story- have about 60 channels except 7.1!

I recently lost reception with Channel 7.1. I am in SSF and i receive everything at the F range indicated by http://www.antennaweb.org
except 7.1. I can get 2.1, 4.1, 5.1 9.1 but just not 7.1

The only problems I can think of now are:

* Antenna booster too weak (The power gain is supposed to be 12db on the booster. ) Can I get a 25db booster or get another inline 12db booster? Would a 25 DB booster on ebay for 25 dollars work?
http://cgi.ebay.com/25dB-UHF-VHF-Vid...item2c54ecea96
Or would any radio shack booster work?
http://www.radioshack.com/family/ind...=Amplifiers&s=
* My antenna can not receive RED VHF signal (whatever that means, it is from tvantenna.com)
* My tuner is bad
* Tower signal is weak

Here is my setup and location:

I have a terk hdtva antenna which can receive UHF and VHF.
http://www.amazon.com/Audiovox-HDTVa...6041720&sr=1-1
I am in South San Francisco and is on 6.9 miles away from the tower.
I can receive 60 channels but just not 7.1. My tv shows 7.1 as very very low signal but there is something there.
I have tried double scanning with the receiver already. Thanks!

The following list is from tvantenna.com. Ch 7.1 is the only "red vhf" channel.
A: 11.1
B: 26.1, 65.1
C: 14.1, 28, 36.1, 48.1, 54.1
D: 22
E: 36.1
F: 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 20.1, 32.1, 38.1, 44.1, 60.1, 66.1
post #6602 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdozer View Post

The following list is from tvantenna.com. Ch 7.1 is the only "red vhf" channel.
A: 11.1
B: 26.1, 65.1
C: 14.1, 28, 36.1, 48.1, 54.1
D: 22
E: 36.1
F: 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 20.1, 32.1, 38.1, 44.1, 60.1, 66.1

You must be be severely shadowed to Mt. Sutro for the predicted signal strengths to be so weak at only 6.9 miles. VHF has shown itself to be very poor in penetrating buildings which is probably what your problem is. The only real solution is an outdoor antenna.

Chuck
post #6603 of 10449
yep, i cant believe it.... i can get channels that are like nearly 20 miles away but i cant get this darn channel at 7 miles away.

in addition, last night i put the antenna out the window too and it didnt seem to help.

seem like the RED VHF signal is really weak, wonder why they even use it

so a booster wont work?

i found two that can boost it up to 25db
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...mplifiers&sku=

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...mplifiers&sku=
post #6604 of 10449
Here's what will happen if you add another "booster". Do this math: Start with a signal that is crap. Amplify it by 20 dB (100X). What do you have?

Answer: Crap that is 100X stronger. It's bigger, but still smells the same.

Your existing antenna already has an amplifier in it. Between it and your proximity to the local FM radio transmitters and your location, high-VHF is fighting a loosing battle.

You'd be much better served with a passive antenna (loop and rabbit ears to start with) and an FM filter.

Go to www.tvfool.com and do an exact address evaluation. Post the shareable link back here so we can see it. Once we see that, we will be better able to evaluate your situation.
post #6605 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by navajo View Post

... So what do you all think is a good antenna for my situation? I know that it will vary per exact location, but I am concerned with having to worry about the network channels that are VHF (ABC and NBC). In Phoenix, I think they were all UHF. Also since I know I might need to try different antennas, if you could recommend a store with a good return policy.

Here is my TV Signal Analysis results from TV Fool (had to add the '----' since I'm not allowed to post URLs yet):

----http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe3461c63732----

I appreciate any help and advice you could give me. Thanks in advance.

An antenna that covers high VHF, channels 7 to 13, and UHF, channels 14 and up, is what you need. Since you're not that far from the transmitter sites, something like the Winegard HD7694P VHF HI-UHF Antenna should work perfectly for you... if you have the space. ( See http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/HD7694P.htm )
It has a boom length of 65 inches, the maximum width is 35 inches and it needs 13 inches of space for height, so it might not be suitable for a balcony.

Another possibility is the Channel Master 4228. It's designed for UHF, but works for High VHF where signals are strong. Signals in Oakland should be strong enough for it to work. ( See http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228HD.htm )
It's 41 x 33 x 5-1/2 inches. I have two of them and am very happy with their performance, but I live in SF, so the two VHF channels are very strong here. It also receives stations up in Marin and Sonoma Counties, and some of the UHF stations from Sacramento, but not the VHF stations.

If at all possible, avoid the use of an indoor antenna. People moving about your home and your neighbors home, and cars and buses passing by, cause multipath signal reflections and can cause signal disruptions. You will get signals from both Sutro Tower and Mt. San Bruno using an indoor antenna, but you'll get tired of the break up and need to adjust it all the time. Stick with something on your balcony or the roof if you can.

The only store that sells antennas around here is Frys, and I don't know what their return policy is. I suggest buying your antenna on line. You'll receive it in just a few days. Solid Signal, Stark and Warren are all reputable stores. See Antennas on my Broadcast page linked below for links to these and other stores.

Larry
SF
post #6606 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdozer View Post

yep, i cant believe it.... i can get channels that are like nearly 20 miles away but i cant get this darn channel at 7 miles away.

I suspect that your Terk antenna is not designed to work well for VHF signals and you don't have a direct shot at Sutro Tower. All of the other stations in your "red list" are on UHF. 2 transmits on 44, 4 on 38, 5 on 29, 9 on 30, etc., while 7 actually transmits on channel 7. You need a decent VHF antenna. Something like the AntennaCraft Y-5-7-13 coupled to your existing antenna should fix you up. You'll just need to find a place to mount the antenna though, as it's 60 inches long, and 36 inches wide. ( See http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...u=716079000987 )

If you don't have room for that, go to Radio Shack and buy a "Rabbit Ears" antenna for about $12. I don't know how well it will work but you might be able to find a location and the right length for the two adjustable "ears" to get a decent signal on channel 7.

Good luck!

Larry
SF
post #6607 of 10449
Larry Kenney you seem to be pretty knowledgable. Do you have any comments on the following post:

Quote:


Can someone give me some recommendations related to which antenna to purchase and where to locate it? I live in Los Altos and my TV Fool url is http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbea1525b9e4e. I am replacing comcast with OTA tv. I have the a dual tuner HD Home Run http://www.silicondust.com/products/hdhomerun_atsc and am interested knowing what kind of antenna(s) to purchase and how to set it up.

My thoughts were around the following alternatives:
- connect to one multi directional antenna and split the signal so the same signal goes in to both inputs in the hd home run
- connect to HE HomeRun two multi directional antennas, one for each input in the HD HomeRun.
- connect HD HomeRun to two uni directional antennas (58 degrees and 324 degrees)
- Attic versus roof installation . Attic is easier but roof is possible as well.
- Do I need to amplify the signal if I split it? What products do this and where would I get one?

I have a limited opportunity to purchase a second hand Antennas Direct ClearStream4 HDTV Antenna for $60 that expires tomorrow.

Thanks for all your help.
post #6608 of 10449
where do you buy the FM trap? it seems radio shack has discontinued carrying the item. i can't find a local store that carries them. target? bestbuy??? thanks

looking at the chart from tvfools. 7 is 1 EDGE which explains the poor quality BUT channel 5 is on 1EDGE and a weaker signal too. so there is no reason line of sight should be an issue here.

on the note of passive antenna, i have switched the poweroff on the amp before but should i completely remove it to see if it works better?
is there a possiblity that i am overpowering the signal? see this from KGO:

# If you are close to Sutro and have a power or amplified antenna (one that plugs in) you may need to unplug the power source. Some of these antennas are overamplifing the signals. Keep your antenna attached to your TV but unplug your antenna from the wall.


could the real cause be FM interfering with the signal? i just cant see how I can't get the signal being only 7 miles away!


sharable tvfool report! http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe4de2e22b7c

channel 7

Transmitter Profile Detail
KGO-DT (Digital)
Channel: 7 (7.1)
Network: ABC
Maximum ERP: 23.800 kW
Coordinates: 37.755208 -122.452748

NOTE: The vertical dimensions in this profile have been exaggerated in order to make the terrain features more visible. This is merely an approximation based on the information available from the FCC database.
KGO-DT
Effective ERP: 23.800 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 6.9 miles Azimuth: 354 degrees Compass: 340 degrees
post #6609 of 10449
[quote=vdozer;18752283]yep, i cant believe it.... i can get channels that are like nearly 20 miles away but i cant get this darn channel at 7 miles away.

in addition, last night i put the antenna out the window too and it didnt seem to help.

seem like the RED VHF signal is really weak, wonder why they even use it

so a booster wont work?

Looking at your signal readings, plus I used to live near there.
NO
Do not use any amps or boosters.
Do not use any fm traps.
You are in an "Overload" Zone on kntv
Any amp will boost kntv to every channel. Wiping them all out.
A better antenna will work.
Try the $4 dollar UHF Bow-tie loop from radio shack.
The twin-lead ribbon cable will pass VHF into it.
Don't be fooled by the low-cost.
This is one of the higher-rated indoor types.

The Red box listed in your tv fool report for KNTV is a "Warning-signal" of an overload condition.
Think of it as sunlight in your eye blocking your vision. It's that powerful.
That could be blocking KGO too.
Ben
post #6610 of 10449
Unplugging a powered amplifier doesn't remove the amplifier - it turns it into an almost open switch.

I would not be so quick dismiss FM interference. Run an FMFool for 37.654335,-122.438679 which should be very close to vdozer's location. There are 7 stations on Bruno (which is in his LOS to Sutro) each laying -3 (KQED at 110 kW) to -16 dBm of signal power at his location. That puts KQED about 40 dB hotter than KGO. If you think that is going to be not important, I'd suggest re-evaluating.

You will likely not find an FM filter in any retail store. You do not want the Radio Shack one, anyway since it doesn't attenuate very much at the low end of the FM band which is where the channel 7 interferer (KQED) resides. The one from Antennas Direct or Tin Lee sells is the kind you want. You can also use an HLSJ as a high-pass filter.

While this is counter-intuitive, I'd start with a basic loop and rabbit ears, about 20-30 dB of attenuation, and at least one FM filter.
post #6611 of 10449
My first indoor antenna pick is the bowtie alone. If there's a possibility of vhf reception, why not start with it? If I slide a bowtie adaptor onto a Zenith converter box, I get a signal sitting under the g of "good" on the signal meter for both vhf stations here. I can get to the second o of "good" with a combo antenna, but don't really need those extra two letters of signal. On a Panasonic tuner, I get 95% signal on these same channels. A combo antenna gets me 100%, but who needs it? Since these channels are vhf, it doesn't matter how fast the delta breeze is blowing.

If you don't have to hoist a pair of rabbit ears, don't. Just make sure the twin-lead flat-wire doesn't touch anything metal. This is a little antenna that can.
post #6612 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdozer View Post

sharable tvfool report! http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9fbe4de2e22b7c

From that table KGO is your strongest signal from Sutro. As pointed out elsewhere, the signals from San Bruno are actually too strong. You definitely don't want any kind of amplified antenna.

What your TV is giving you is Signal Quality, not signal strength. It's most likely you have plenty of signal but severe multipath on KGO which is giving you a low Signal Quality. This why you need an outside antenna, not something held out the window, but a roof mounted directional antenna high enough to clear local obstructions like trees and buildings.

Chuck
post #6613 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

You will likely not find an FM filter in any retail store. You do not want the Radio Shack one, anyway since it doesn't attenuate very much at the low end of the FM band which is where the channel 7 interferer (KQED) resides. The one from Antennas Direct or Tin Lee sells is the kind you want. You can also use an HLSJ as a high-pass filter.

I'm wondering how you determined that KQED-FM is interfering with KGO Channel 7 in his situation?

What is an HLSJ?

I have all Tin Lee components here and I can attest that they make good stuff.

Chuck
post #6614 of 10449
OK, more results last night, ranking best to worst.

1)With Terk HDTVa & amp- Got a little bit of intermittent ABC reception, if i touch the VHF rabbit ears on the antenna i get ABC.
2) With Terk HDTVa amp removed- Completely removed amp - lost a lot of channles, went form 60 to like 14, cant even get ABC
3) Radio Shack DA 5200 outdoor antenna with amp - indoor- Couldnt nearly as many channels as the Terk HDTVa. Only got like 20 indoor and it was very choppy. Since it was so bad I didnt even try to put it outside.
4) Radio Shack amp removed- hardly got any channel

This is kinda werid... the amp seems to be the only thing helping the signal. It is crazy since KRON4 CBS5, NBC11, KQED 9 are super sharp, never any signal problem.

Is there a way to boost the VHF capability of the Terk? What is the bowtie adapter? Can I add a booster?
Furhtermore, what is the best configuraiton for rabbit ears? The Terk manual said the rabbit ears should be lowered and put in v shape for ch 7 to ch 13 and fully extended for ch2 to ch 6.

SIDE QUESTION- i did find a way to get SD ABC. somehow my internet cable had SD channels on them. However, tuner only accepts one source, anyway I can merge the signal? Else I need to get another tuner to use the SD feed. Thanks
post #6615 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdozer View Post

Is there a way to boost the VHF capability of the Terk?
Furhtermore, what is the best configuraiton for rabbit ears? The Terk manual said the rabbit ears should be lowered and put in v shape for ch 7 to ch 13 and fully extended for ch2 to ch 6.

I have a Terk HDTVa and it performs very well on VHF. The caveats are that in the Dallas-Ft. Worth market where terrain is ideal for television RF. All of our stations transmit from the same antenna farm with high power levels and tall towers.

That disclaimer aside, here's how I peaked the VHF performance on the HDTVa for high VHF (RF channels 8, 9, 11 and 12) in this market.

1). Extend the dipoles to 14.25 inches on each side.

2). Lay them flat -- NOT using the V shape as recommended by the manual.

3). The following ugly modification was simple but effective.

a). From an ancient set of old rabbit hears, remove the two dipole elements. Extend one to 34.5 inches and attach it on a small block of wood at the center (for a reflector). Extend the other to 24 inches and attach it to a small block of wood at the center (this is the director). The block of wood should be 1.5 inches high, matching the distance of the Terk's dipoles from the base.

b). Place the reflector block to the rear of the HDTVa at a distance of 11 inches and the director block 8 inches in front of the Terk's dipoles.

This little hack changes the basic dipole of the Terk HDTVa's elements to one enhanced by a reflector and director, increasing the gain and giving it a front-to-back ratio, making it more directional (as is already the case with the UHF portion).

Here's crude ASCII art (looking from overhead) at the configuration. Hope it survives your display font and the
spacing of AVS Forum:

<-----------------> [Front director]

<-----------------------> [Terk HDTVa]


<----------------------------> [Rear reflector]
post #6616 of 10449
awesome. i think the terk hdtva is actualyl a pretty good antenna. esepically given that the radio shack one didnt get nearly the channels i had with the terk.

anyhow, can u post a pic when u get a chance.

i get what u are saying, i think i did this type of ghetto rigging before with alumimum foil. bounce the signal back to the VHF side but a pic would help. thannks!
post #6617 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdozer View Post

awesome. i think the terk hdtva is actualyl a pretty good antenna. esepically given that the radio shack one didnt get nearly the channels i had with the terk.

anyhow, can u post a pic when u get a chance.

A lot of the experts dismiss products from Terk, perhaps based on some of their earlier offerings. Results will vary, of course, but the HDTVa has proven to be a good performer for me. I also take it along on road trips and its works well from various motel and hotel rooms for OTA especially given its small footprint.

I don't have a way to post a picture of my antenna hack. But this page should give you an idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yagi_antenna

Look at the figure showing the reflector, driven and director elements. The dipoles of the Terk HDTVa would be the line shown in green. The homebrew elements described in my initial message are those in a purplish tint.

What's fascinating about this admittedly crude arrangement is to observe the signal quality meter on your ATSC receiver as you arrange the reflector and director into place.

For example, the Terk HDTVa ``as is'' measures 72% on KTVT/RF-11. When I add the rear reflector, that increases to 88%. Then, adding the front director auses the signal quality indicator to reach full scale.
post #6618 of 10449
so all i have to do is place them there? i dont have to connect the director reflectors? thanks! i will let u know how it goes
post #6619 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdozer View Post

OK, more results last night, ranking best to worst.

1)With Terk HDTVa & amp- Got a little bit of intermittent ABC reception, if i touch the VHF rabbit ears on the antenna i get ABC.
2) With Terk HDTVa amp removed- Completely removed amp - lost a lot of channles, went form 60 to like 14, cant even get ABC
3) Radio Shack DA 5200 outdoor antenna with amp - indoor- Couldnt nearly as many channels as the Terk HDTVa. Only got like 20 indoor and it was very choppy. Since it was so bad I didnt even try to put it outside.
4) Radio Shack amp removed- hardly got any channel

This is kinda werid... the amp seems to be the only thing helping the signal. It is crazy since KRON4 CBS5, NBC11, KQED 9 are super sharp, never any signal problem.

Is there a way to boost the VHF capability of the Terk? What is the bowtie adapter? Can I add a booster?
Furhtermore, what is the best configuraiton for rabbit ears? The Terk manual said the rabbit ears should be lowered and put in v shape for ch 7 to ch 13 and fully extended for ch2 to ch 6.

SIDE QUESTION- i did find a way to get SD ABC. somehow my internet cable had SD channels on them. However, tuner only accepts one source, anyway I can merge the signal? Else I need to get another tuner to use the SD feed. Thanks


Have you tried the simple $4 bow-tie UHF antenna from radio shack ?
That antenna has been sold for decades.... Because it works.
Your testing garbage models with amps.
And your results are confirming they are garbage.
Ben

Buy it and let us know, It's only 4 bucks,
Pin it to the wall facing sutro tower, make sure you also get the 300ohm to 75ohm push-on transformer.
Problem solved.
post #6620 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I'm wondering how you determined that KQED-FM is interfering with KGO Channel 7 in his situation?

It's an educated guess. I don't "know" it's the problem, but the circumstances are such that I'd be very surprised if it was not the problem (or a major contributor).

The transmit frequency of KQED is 88.5 MHz. The 2nd harmonic (created in the first active electronic device - tuner or amp) is 177 MHZ which falls directly into channel 7. With a ERP of 110 kW at under 3 miles and with KGO shadowed by San Bruno, the calculated differential is, as I noted above, approximately 40 dB.

I'd suggest the following two articles by a respected expert be read by anyone seeking to understand the effects that FM radio has on DTV reception, most prominently on channels 7-13.

http://tvtechnology.com/article/82716
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/88282

Here's the money quote:
Quote:


FMI may result when the DTV receiver is near one or more FM stations, hence receiving strong undesired signals while either at a distance from the desired DTV transmitter site, or where there is no direct ray path as behind a hill or large building.


Quote:


What is an HLSJ?

High/Low Signal Joiner ala http://www.hollandelectronics.com/ca...-Diplexers.pdf or http://yhst-18278607509093.stores.ya...pico-0144.html Capping the "Low" port with a 75 ohm terminator makes it a high-pass filter with a Ft somewhere around 130 to 160 MHz and an attenuation of at least 25 dB below channel 7.
post #6621 of 10449
yep thats part of the plan... but i will be combining the the bow tie signal with the terk. i have to stay on this path since ch7 is not the only channel i want

going to get a combiner and merge the bow tie and terk. or might just try the yagi method
post #6622 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdozer View Post

yep thats part of the plan... but i will be combining the the bow tie signal with the terk. i have to stay on this path since ch7 is not the only channel i want

going to get a combiner and merge the bow tie and terk. or might just try the yagi method

Use the bow-tie by itself.
Place the terk out for garbage pickup.

All indoor terk models .... do not meet "CEA performance specifications" for indoor antennas that work in city grade A signal zones.
.... do not carry the red checkmark of approval ...www.antennaweb.org by the CEA
post #6623 of 10449
If you combine antennas, signal cancellation occurs,
that is,
The good signal gets washed with bad signal 5+ 5- = 0

Place the terk out for garbage pickup.
post #6624 of 10449
so what are the combiners used for?

orginialy i was going to combine it with the cable service. somehow i am getting analog over the cable modem

will that wash out too?
post #6625 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

It's an educated guess. I don't "know" it's the problem, but the circumstances are such that I'd be very surprised if it was not the problem (or a major contributor).

The transmit frequency of KQED is 88.5 MHz. The 2nd harmonic (created in the first active electronic device - tuner or amp) is 177 MHZ which falls directly into channel 7. With a ERP of 110 kW at under 3 miles and with KGO shadowed by San Bruno, the calculated differential is, as I noted above, approximately 40 dB.

If that is his problem and he cannot find an FM trap, or at least not a cheap one, he could try a 1/4 wave stub tuned to 88.5 MHz as an experiment. It's pretty simple to make.

Buy a F-type T connector if you can find one. Otherwise, get a 2-way splitter, take off the back and replace the transformer with wire to make a T connector. Cut a piece of RG-6 to 28.5". I'm assuming foam polyethylene dielectric with a velocity factor of 83%. That's standard. Put an F connector on one end and leave the other end open. Using the T connector, connect the antenna to one port, the TV to another port, and the stub to the last port. That should give decent attenuation at 88.5 MHz. I think this will impact UHF so it's only good for a test. If it works then he can buy an expensive Tin Lee filter.

Quote:


HLSJ
High/Low Signal Joiner

Acronym overload. What's wrong with VHF/UHF diplexer?

Chuck
post #6626 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post


Acronym overload. What's wrong with VHF/UHF diplexer?

Chuck


'Cos a UVSJ is also a VHF/UHF Diplexer... The term "VHF/UHF Diplexer" by itself isn't explicit enough in this case due to the transition frequency. Calling it a "Low VHF/High VHF Diplexer would be closer to accurate.

The OP isn't listening anyway. He's bent on using crappy amplifiers regardless of the consequences.
post #6627 of 10449
Here is a bowtie adapter: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062054

If you can slide that onto a digital tuner of some kind with a bowtie attached, you have the best chance of getting vhf with the antenna. Adding coax significantly reduces the bowties vhf capabilities.
post #6628 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by lloydus View Post

Larry Kenney you seem to be pretty knowledgable. Do you have any comments on the following post:

I think the advise you got from Toast0 is excellent. The CM4228 seems to work well for Hi-VHF and all of UHF, so you should have excellent results if you go with one of them.

I have two on my roof and am very pleased with them. Toast0 has had good luck with his, too, as have many others.

Forget the Clearstream4. It's UHF only so you won't get KGO or KNTV with it. You need an antenna that receives both Hi-VHF and UHF channels.

Larry
SF
post #6629 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

'Cos a UVSJ is also a VHF/UHF Diplexer... The term "VHF/UHF Diplexer" by itself isn't explicit enough in this case due to the transition frequency. Calling it a "Low VHF/High VHF Diplexer would be closer to accurate.

Sorry, I forgot we were discussing hi/lo VHF. It is confusing though to refer to a device by a particular company's model number.

Quote:


The OP isn't listening anyway. He's bent on using crappy amplifiers regardless of the consequences.

People equate not being able to receive a station with it being too weak, especially if the TV shows a low signal quality. It's difficult to overcome that mindset. I'm not aware of a basic tutorial that explains DTV reception issues. It would be nice to be able to point the many people who come here to something they could read instead of explaining it over and over.

Chuck
post #6630 of 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post

Have you tried the simple $4 bow-tie UHF antenna from radio shack ? ...

I'm confused by this comment, 888. He says that his Terk is working fine for UHF. It's channel 7 where he's having problems. How will a UHF bow-tie help pull in channel 7?

Larry
SF
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