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post #8671 of 9309
5/29/12 at 7:30am
I checked signals last night at 10 pm and they were all good. This morning at 7:30 am they're all bad, all of them from every direction. I would think my antennas were broken except KMMW LOS is normal.

Chuck
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post #8672 of 9309
5/29/12 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I checked signals last night at 10 pm and they were all good. This morning at 7:30 am they're all bad, all of them from every direction. I would think my antennas were broken except KMMW LOS is normal.

Chuck

How bad is bad?
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post #8673 of 9309
5/30/12 at 12:09am
I did a quick look around the band three times today and signals were about normal level every time. I haven't seen any drastic changes here in quite some time. I'll keep looking.

Larry
SF
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post #8674 of 9309
5/30/12 at 1:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

KEMO is always stronger than KRCB here. I have a nice clear shot across the bay and up through the Napa Valley to Mt. St. Helena, a distance of 65 miles.

To get the signal as well as you did at the 5 foot elevation in Hayward, conditions must have been really good tonight. Since Chuck expects unusual reception in the next few days, I'll have to do an occasional check to see what's happening.
Larry
SF

UHF reception here is like looking through mini-blinds. Meter says zero,... move the antenna 1 foot left,... meter says 25.... Move again ... zero
Then comes what I call a tidal wave. Signal rolls up, peaks for 5 seconds, then rolls down, with no "Normal" level.
There are sweet spots on the property too. The approx 15 foot VHF circle that pulls walnut grove in. At any elevation, but 12 feet seems optimized.
For KSBW, Tilting the antenna works best.

I'm not sure how a 4228 antenna would work here because of the multipath "Mini-blind" effect. The 4 bowties on the left could cancel out signal from the 4 bowties on the right.
I built a home-made 4 bowtie antenna, it worked similar to a single or double bowtie in the same spot.
Putting a 8 bay bowtie antenna in a spot with poor signal doesn't seem to work any better than a single bowtie in the sweet spot.

I will see if KFTY comes in again ... in the same spot... or it was just a chance event.
I checked for UHF from Walnut Grove that night ... zero ... not a trace
I see signal sometimes from 42, 13, 25 but never a lock.. too low levels.
I quickly tested RF-3 but not finished with that one.
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post #8675 of 9309
5/30/12 at 3:28pm
I just received the June 2012 edition of the "VHF-UHF Digest", the monthly publication of the Worldwide TV-FM-DX Association. In the Station Activity section of the "TV News" column there's an interest item for this area:

KEMO-TV, Santa Rosa, channel 50 (RF 32) has applied for a 2 site Distributed Transmission System on channel 32:
DTS 1: 50 kw/930 m/3051' Mt. St. Helena
DTS 2: 200 kw/472 m/1549' Sutro Tower, San Francisco

Larry
SF
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post #8676 of 9309
5/30/12 at 3:40pm
FYI... KEMO presently transmits 20 kw at 3045 feet on Mt. St. Helena, so they'd be increasing their power by 2.5 times and going up 6 feet higher on the tower.

Larry
SF
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post #8677 of 9309
5/30/12 at 4:58pm
Any chance the kemo (32) signal will cause problems for other channels reception?
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post #8678 of 9309
5/30/12 at 9:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I checked signals last night at 10 pm and they were all good. This morning at 7:30 am they're all bad, all of them from every direction. I would think my antennas were broken except KMMW LOS is normal.

Chuck

almost sounds like a cold solder joint type problem.
once it warms up it is OK.
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post #8679 of 9309
5/31/12 at 7:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

FYI... KEMO presently transmits 20 kw at 3045 feet on Mt. St. Helena, so they'd be increasing their power by 2.5 times and going up 6 feet higher on the tower.

Larry
SF

That 3045' is Height Above Average Terrain which makes sense in some parts of the country but not around here where the majority of people live close to sea level. Their transmitter is at 4418' Above Mean Sea Level.

Chuck
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post #8680 of 9309
5/31/12 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eaamon View Post

almost sounds like a cold solder joint type problem.
once it warms up it is OK.

One might think that if I didn't have KMMW LOS at 14 miles as reference signal. It varies at most +/- 1 dB and was unchanged on the bad morning. The next morning all was normal again.

Chuck
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post #8681 of 9309
5/31/12 at 7:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

KEMO-TV, Santa Rosa, channel 50 (RF 32) has applied for a 2 site Distributed Transmission System on channel 32:
DTS 1: 50 kw/930 m/3051' Mt. St. Helena
DTS 2: 200 kw/472 m/1549' Sutro Tower, San Francisco

Maybe I'm just cynical but I've seen other stations play this game. Sounds to me like their goal is to become a mainstream Bay Area station. If they get on Sutro Tower the next step would be shutting down the North Bay transmitter. The final step would be increasing to 1 MW ERP if KION didn't complain.

Chuck
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post #8682 of 9309
5/31/12 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iitywygms View Post

Any chance the kemo (32) signal will cause problems for other channels reception?

No... it will be an adjacent channel to KMTP which transmits on channel 33, but there are a lot of adjacent channel stations already transmitting from Sutro Tower:
KPIX 29 - KQED 30
KMTP 33 - KFSF 34
KRON 38 - KCNS 39
KCSM 43 - KTVU 44 - KBCW 45

Larry
SF
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post #8683 of 9309
6/4/12 at 1:21pm
Hi,

Last fall I lost KPIX (RF 29) and KQED (RF 30) for ~ 2-3 months after the early rain when the leaves were still on the trees. (The very tall tree in my path to Sutro did not lose it's leaves until January.) Reception slowly improved.

I now am having problems with KMTP (RF 33) after the rain today.

It has been previously stated that rain does not affect ATSC reception.

I was alerted to the tall trees in the path to Sutro one Noon when both KPIX (RF 29) and KTVU (RF 44) were breaking up very badly during the big windstorm we had.

----------------------------------------

I am interested in any reports of bad reception starting with the rain Monday June 4, 2012 that slowly improve in the days as the leaves dry out. No more rain is expected.

SHF
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post #8684 of 9309
6/4/12 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

It has been previously stated that rain does not affect ATSC reception.

I was alerted to the tall trees in the path to Sutro one Noon when both KPIX (RF 29) and KTVU (RF 44) were breaking up very badly during the big windstorm we had.

----------------------------------------

I am interested in any reports of bad reception starting with the rain Monday June 4, 2012 that slowly improve in the days as the leaves dry out. No more rain is expected.

SHF

Rain does not attenuate signals at VHF or UHF but that's not to say that if you look through trees that signals can't change when they get wet.

Trees are a real problem especially on UHF.

I just checked all my stations after .70" of rain here and they're all good. Even KGO is good this afternoon.

Chuck
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post #8685 of 9309
6/4/12 at 5:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,

Last fall I lost KPIX (RF 29) and KQED (RF 30) for ~ 2-3 months after the early rain when the leaves were still on the trees. (The very tall tree in my path to Sutro did not lose it's leaves until January.) Reception slowly improved.

I now am having problems with KMTP (RF 33) after the rain today.

It has been previously stated that rain does not affect ATSC reception.

I was alerted to the tall trees in the path to Sutro one Noon when both KPIX (RF 29) and KTVU (RF 44) were breaking up very badly during the big windstorm we had.

----------------------------------------

I am interested in any reports of bad reception starting with the rain Monday June 4, 2012 that slowly improve in the days as the leaves dry out. No more rain is expected.

SHF


Howdy SHF

i readjusted my antenna set up in the attic last week so i've been in the habit of checking the signal strengths since, and KMTP was "on the edge of the cliff" all weekend, before any signs of rain. their signal has otherwise been very reliable down here, and the poor reception was unique to KMTPs signal, all the other stations i normally get were normal to above average signal strength.

might could be the problems on their end not ours.
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post #8686 of 9309
6/4/12 at 8:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTEL08 View Post

Howdy SHF

i readjusted my antenna set up in the attic last week so i've been in the habit of checking the signal strengths since, and KMTP was "on the edge of the cliff" all weekend, before any signs of rain. their signal has otherwise been very reliable down here, and the poor reception was unique to KMTPs signal, all the other stations i normally get were normal to above average signal strength.

might could be the problems on their end not ours.

Hi,

{KMTP Bashing on}

Well, given their track record of operating the station so very well. NOT!!!

I am only capturing "In Focus" from Germany and looking at them later.

They have had a very poor record with program listings and since Germany changed their USA feed "In Focus" now appears five times a day and suprisingly four are "In Focus", but mainly repeats.

I just looked at KMTP (RF33) with HDHomerun live and it is breaking up a lot.

So, KMTP may be the exception to Larry's statement to consider Sutro to be perfect!

Their addition of another stream might have broken something. KPOP, that sounds like a disaster.

At least the were rejected by KCSM due to no money, so their disaster will not be spread.

I had fogotten how so much fun KMTP bashing is, I need to do more.

{KMTP Bashing off}

I will be watching KPIX (RF 29) and KQED (RF 30) closely, the wet leaves idea sounds so good.

SHF
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post #8687 of 9309
6/5/12 at 12:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post


So, KMTP may be the exception to Larry's statement to consider Sutro to be perfect!

SHF

Would you explain further, please? I don't know what you're referring to.

Larry
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post #8688 of 9309
6/6/12 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post


Would you explain further, please? I don't know what you're referring to.


Larry

Hi,

It's the sum of your many statements about how Sutro is to be considered to never be at fault. biggrin.gif

It has been true 99 + 44/100 % of the time but there have been two exceptions in the last few weeks. KCSM had a problem which was quickly fixed and KMTP's current problems. They are on the air right now AFAIK. tongue.gif

Trying hard to not quote what you said in private, we all must look first to problems with our reception equipment first, second, third and only consider Sutro when multiple reports come in.

It is hard for many people to have a reception problem, not be able to fix it, to not ask "Is Sutro xxxx down".

The answer almost always will be, NO, there are no problems. That will be yours and mine first answers.

I now will make a post saying that I was wrong to say that for KMTP, but they {KMTP Bashing ON} run such a rotten operation {KMTP Bashing OFF}. redface.gif

SHF
Edited by SFischer1 - 6/6/12 at 1:58pm
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post #8689 of 9309
6/6/12 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Quote:
Quote:
Hi,
Thanks again for an important report.
Shucks, with KEMO now producing a lock some of the time and KMTP getting stronger, I really was convinced.
It goes to show that the real experts are the ones at the other end of the transmitted signal from me.
I need to get back to the fun mode of "KMTP Bashing", they deserve it oh so much.
ADDITION: Wednesday June 6, 2012 KTMP at 1:45 PM is back on the air but not solid. KEMO is also producing a lock some of the time
SHF
Quote:
Original Message
From: Don Hackler
To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] KTVU fill in transmittor up on RF 48

KMTP is having exciter problems, which could be causing somewhat degraded signal quality and signal level.
Quote:
On 6/5/2012 4:55 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
Hi,
KTVU RF 48 now has PSIP and I get a great HD picture.
So try it again.
KMTP is back, well more of the time.
I am starting to see KEMO, but no lock yet.
Unless we get a good report that KMTP has problems at the transmitter, I am declaring that my reception problems are due to the weather or wet leaves. (See AVS posts when it comes back, I really miss AVS!)
KMTP RF 33 and KEMO RF 32 having problems at the same time for me says it is my problem. (And others near me with the same path to Sutro.)
SHF
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post #8690 of 9309
6/6/12 at 3:07pm
Hi,

I discovered yesterday that KTVU RF 48 is on the air from Monument Pk.

When I first saw it the PSIP was included and I was able to get a great HD picture, the same as on RF 44 from Sutro.

Then ~ Noon the PSIP disappeared not to return for several hours. (Transmitter was on.)

I have been checking often and it appears to be up for good, PSIP returned late Tuesday afternoon.

That's good news for some, perhaps bad news for others. It all depends on how your HDTV was programmed.

When two RF channels have identical PSIP:

If the set starts scanning at RF 2 and goes up, or if it starts at RF 51 and goes down may make a difference.

It would be valuable if any ATSC sets that select the stronger / clearer signal can be identified.

1. First one seen wins.

2. Last one seen wins.

3. Both wins.

4. Neither wins.

I have ATSC tuners of all four types, #4 is only suspected as the set has Alpha software and I have not and do not plan to test it with a full scan.

Of my four tuner types three display the RF channel. Most DTV sets do not show the RF channel so it is hard to tell.

So we now have two stations transmitting on two RF channels displaying the same PSIP.

KGO PSIP 7 on RF 7 and RF 35.

KTVU PSIP 2 on RF 44 and RF 48.

And more to come!.

SHF
Edited by SFischer1 - 6/6/12 at 8:11pm
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post #8691 of 9309
6/7/12 at 12:07pm
Hi,

As the KGO engineer sometimes reads this thread, here is one of the posts from [HDTV-in-SFbay].

KGO RF 35 is a hard catch for me as my antenna is pointing in the wrong direction, but looking at it I see reception breakups just like I have seen due to weather and wet leaves on trees on other stations. But then KMTP looked the same lately.

SHF
Quote:
In our area, it's more likely you are currently receiving KGO 7.1 from Mt Allison (UHF-35), which is the stronger signal (if you recently scanned with a smaller and/or non-directional antenna).

Lately, the 'programming' on this repeater, 35-UHF, has been frequently going off and on (at least it has on my tuner/system: black screen, but still a 90-100% signal strength???).

I'm nearby at 95129 (Lawrence & 280). Since KGO 7.1 started also transmitting on the nearby Mt. Allison RF channel 35 repeater a year or so ago, my KGO signal strength has gone from ~10-35% to 90-100% here just using an indoor UHF antennas....

However lately, the problem with the channel 35 repeater is the programming will suddenly quit (black screen), but the signal strength indicator will still be close to 100% (this happens during prime time, news time, etc, - usually for an hour to a few hours - next day, 7 programming is back).

In the past (before the mount allison repeater was turned on), we were able to receive KGO from Sutro on VHF 7 (which was do-able, but required a lot of antenna repositioning).

Unfortunately, my tuner automatically picks up the stronger signal when rescanning. In the past, when 35UHF was down (no signal or carrier), I could rescan and go back to receiving the 7-VHF at Sutro.

Maybe it's a format-software thing... I'm using a CM7000 converter box.

....Brian
Quote:
--- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Hong" wrote:
>
> Since the regular season is over some weeks ago, I haven't been paying too much on TV, and I didn't realize that I have completely lost KGO on 7.1.
>
> I looked at the messages on this group, and it seems KGO is supposed to be on 35.1. I tried that and it seems I can't get that either. I also noticed that on Larry's page, it seems KGO from both Sutro and Mt. Allison have fairly low power. Is there some work going on?
>
> Any help would be appreciated. FYI, I am located in 95124 (San Jose / Campbell), close to the intersection of freeway 85 & 17.
>
> Hong.
>
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post #8692 of 9309
6/8/12 at 6:07pm
I forwarded a copy of the above post to the KGO transmitter engineer. He replied that he would go down to check out the translator today to see if he can find the problem.

Larry
SF
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post #8693 of 9309
6/8/12 at 7:31pm
Atta boy Larry!
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post #8694 of 9309
6/10/12 at 3:43pm
Is there anything wrong with KTVU on RF 44?

Its always been a bit of a problem for me, but currently I'm getting a totally unusable signal, its only getting a varying strength of 0-20 on the TiVo, the rest of the usual stations are coming in around 70 and stable. The TiVo doesn't seem to know about the new RF48, I might have more luck with that,
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post #8695 of 9309
6/10/12 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by btwyx View Post

Is there anything wrong with KTVU on RF 44?

Its always been a bit of a problem for me, but currently I'm getting a totally unusable signal, its only getting a varying strength of 0-20 on the TiVo, the rest of the usual stations are coming in around 70 and stable. The TiVo doesn't seem to know about the new RF48, I might have more luck with that,

Hi,

do you really know which one you are receiving? I can directly select RF channels so what one I am looking at is known. (HDHomeRun)

KTVU RF 44 looks real good just like it has always.

KTVU RF 48 looks to me like the hot weather is affecting it, but my antenna is pointed in the wrong direction.

RF 48 when it came up has been much better than RF 35, RF 35 is bad and RF 48 just a little bit better.

I would blame the hot weather for RF 48 problems, but with all the possible transmitter problems in the last month, I am gun shy. confused.gif

I am near the Sunnyvale Community Center with a great antenna system.

SHF
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post #8696 of 9309
6/10/12 at 5:39pm
hey btwyx

hearing you talk about the how ktvu is often problematic for you, its not surprising youre having problems with it on a hot afternoon like today.

kgo 7 is the exact same thing for me. ill lose it in early afternoon, then the signal will finally be viewable again an hour or two before sunset


SHF, tivos signal strength software doesnt list every single physical channel, empty or not, like the hd homerun does, only the channels with live broadcast signals in the area. i doubt his tivo will be showing anything in regards to rf 48, in my experience it takes them a few weeks to get new digital channel info updated for their users.
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post #8697 of 9309
6/11/12 at 12:44pm
There were reports last week of problems with KGO's translator on channel 35. I forwarded your comments to the Transmitter Engineer at KGO.

This morning I received the following email back from him:

Larry,

Here is the latest information regarding D-35 in San Jose.

There is a defective exciter "A" that may have caused the intermittent video drop-out problem. I will be going back to San Jose tomorrow to remove the defective exciter and will be sending it back to Harris for warranty service. Now, there is only one exciter online, so it is even more important for viewers in San Jose to post any problems with D-35 until the remote monitoring system is installed. Please ask viewers if the signal is stable now. Thanks!

Regards,
Rich


Is the KGO translator working okay now? I'll pass on your comments to Rich, and if you see any further problems with the translator, please post them here and I'll pass them on as well.

Larry
SF
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post #8698 of 9309
6/11/12 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTEL08 View Post

hey btwyx
hearing you talk about the how ktvu is often problematic for you, its not surprising youre having problems with it on a hot afternoon like today.
kgo 7 is the exact same thing for me. ill lose it in early afternoon, then the signal will finally be viewable again an hour or two before sunset
SHF, tivos signal strength software doesnt list every single physical channel, empty or not, like the hd homerun does, only the channels with live broadcast signals in the area. i doubt his tivo will be showing anything in regards to rf 48, in my experience it takes them a few weeks to get new digital channel info updated for their users.

If you keep losing the signal of a station or stations, that indicates just one thing: You need a better antenna, one with more gain. You need to have an antenna that makes normal signals strong enough to be able to handle dips in signal strength when conditions aren't so good. Leaves on trees, atmospheric conditions such as fog and inversion layers, and other situations can cause large swings in signal strength. If they go up, no problem, but if they go down you need to have enough signal coming in so that when they dip to the low side they're still strong enough to produce a picture. Often, just moving the antenna higher or in a horizontal plane can make a big difference in signal strength. You just have to be careful that when improving the signal of one station you don't lose the signal from another. That's why a higher gain antenna is usually the better fix.

Larry
SF
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post #8699 of 9309
6/11/12 at 2:58pm
It's very hard for me to imagine how anyone in the south bay could have a problem receiving KGO 35 or KTVU 48 unless you're hiding behind one of the few hills. That transmitter location is LOS to almost everywhere in the south and west bay regions and less than 20 miles in nearly all cases. Even with only 3.5 KW ERP KTVU should be very strong. As I've mentioned before I have KMMW-LD 14 miles away and I'm off the back of their antenna so I get only 385 watts ERP. They are the second strongest UHF station with 40 dB of noise margin and the signal varies by no more than +/- 1 dB. If you're getting dropouts on these two stations then there is something else going on.

Chuck
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post #8700 of 9309
6/11/12 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

It's very hard for me to imagine how anyone in the south bay could have a problem receiving KGO 35 or KTVU 48 unless you're hiding behind one of the few hills. That transmitter location is LOS to almost everywhere in the south and west bay regions and less than 20 miles in nearly all cases. Even with only 3.5 KW ERP KTVU should be very strong. As I've mentioned before I have KMMW-LD 14 miles away and I'm off the back of their antenna so I get only 385 watts ERP. They are the second strongest UHF station with 40 dB of noise margin and the signal varies by no more than +/- 1 dB. If you're getting dropouts on these two stations then there is something else going on.
Chuck


Howdy Chuck

you might be surprised then. im a mile or so east of santa teresa county park, and as the profile of my view to KGO-LD shows im 2 edge to mt allison. trying to tune my antenna set up to receive its signal costs me too many other channels, and given the dodgy nature of its signal for me here its in no way worth the trouble. that second egde in the profile is the hills above silver creek. the neighborhoods tucked into those hills are probably worse locations than mine.

at least kicu is strong enough for the 91xg to pick it up, despite bring pointed toward SF.

140
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