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San Francisco, CA - OTA - Page 321

post #9601 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

I wonder how much arguing went on at KGO between marketing and engineering about returning to the VHF channel 7 frequency after years of successful HD broadcasting on UHF?

 

Hi,

 

Very little, the financial people dictated AFAIK because of the lower cost of VHF and the resulting coverage. (PG&E ongoing costs for electricity!)

 

Larry of course can say much more if he can or wishes.

 

SHF

 

------------------

 

Look at Eureka, CA

 

3 KIEM City: Eureka, CA (NBC)
Owner: Pollack/Belz Broadcasting
Web Site: http://www.kiem-tv.com/
Station Info: Digital Full-Power


9 KUVU-LP ID: "Eureka's CW"
City: Eureka, CA
Owner: Sainte
Web Site: http://yourcwtv.com/partners/eureka/
Station Info: Low-Power - 3 kW


13
(11) KEET City: Eureka, CA
Owner: Redwood Empire Public Television
Web Site: http://www.keet.org/
Station Info: Digital Educational Full-Power - 38.4 kW
Subchannels: 13.1 KEET/PBS HD, 13.2 PBS World


Edited by SFischer1 - 10/3/13 at 12:54pm
post #9602 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

I wonder how much arguing went on at KGO between marketing and engineering about returning to the VHF channel 7 frequency after years of successful HD broadcasting on UHF?

None. KGO management and engineering had no choice in the matter. The decision was made by ABC/Disney corporate in New York. They decided that all of their ABC owned stations would return to their original channels. In Philadelphia the ABC station is on channel 6 today. Being on low VHF, they have all kinds of reception problems.

Larry
Edited by Larry Kenney - 10/3/13 at 4:37pm
post #9603 of 10423
WJLA ABC-7 in Wash DC reportedly has a strong signal on RF7 after they increased power. Reaching into Va, Md, and Pa. And in Atlanta, WXIA-11 on RF10 has a high power signal for NBC. So the issue with some digital VHF reception was more power was needed. Although UHF more resistant to noise and interference.
post #9604 of 10423
Is Sutro running on Aux antennas now?
post #9605 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by iitywygms View Post

Is Sutro running on Aux antennas now?

 

Hi,

 

Looking at Toast0's charts I would say no. Last week they clearly showed a difference.

 

Remember, Sutro has ONE (1) employee, (Vice President & General Manager) and he is very slow reporting to the neighbors about unplanned shifts to the Aux antennas.

 

I would not expect an e-mail before Monday if there was use of the Aux antennas.

 

Looking at my weather station the humidity is staying low so the weather is changing as the weather persons said it would. I think the wind has shifted off shore but having no wind direction and speed (Illegal due to HOA rules) a look at other weather stations would be necessary.

 

KEMO to the North of you (97 Miles) is poor but KRCB is fine. I need more time with my reinstalled CM4228HD to better judge KEMO.

 

So, normal weather changes are in effect, a Low leaves and a High comes in and HDTV gets better or worse or no difference.

 

SHF


Edited by SFischer1 - 10/3/13 at 9:04pm
post #9606 of 10423
The Terk is both UHF and VHF.

I get about 50 channels with rabbit ears, so this should be similar. I need to check the rabbit ears on the other TV and see how strong ch. 7 is there.


[edit 10/4/13] I moved the Terk up a bit so it wasn't between the TV and the wall, rescanned, and got KGO and KTVU this time. So it's working well now.
Edited by wintertime - 10/4/13 at 8:18pm
post #9607 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

None. KGO management and engineering had no choice in the matter. The decision was made by ABC/Disney corporate in New York. They decided that all of their ABC owned stations would return to their original channels. In Philadelphia the ABC station is on channel 6 today. Being on low VHF, they have all kinds of reception problems.

Larry

Has KGO boosted the power since the transition?

I've recently moved here from Raleigh NC, where WTVD returned to RF11 after the transition, after broadcasting digital much more successfully in the upper 40s UHF for years. There were a lot of issues after the transition, and they eventually boosted their power eliminating most of them. Post transition, many of us just forgot about WTVD & aimed our antennas to the neighboring market (Greensboro, ~50 miles away) where they have a non-O&O ABC station still broadcasting on UHF. We got better reception AND avoided the picture quality killing livewell channel. (Greensboro's ABC had ~15Mbs/s vs WTVD's 10Mb/s typical bitrates for ABC-HD in primetime).

Drew
post #9608 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by wintertime View Post

So KGO is dicey for folks in the South Bay all the time, or just when they're on an alternate antenna?



Patty

We've never noticed anything different with KGO in San Jose, and we watch it all of the time.
post #9609 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

We've never noticed anything different with KGO in San Jose, and we watch it all of the time.

Finally got around to setting up an antenna on my Brother's roof (in 'Old' Mountain View) — using a chimney mount from Fry's — using the CM4220 that was in the garage intially. In the attic of the garage we could get KGO-35 by tilting it up, but, with it outside on the chimney I couldn't get both KGO-35 and the rest of the Sutro channels. So, off to my parents house for the CM4228 and using my iPhone to aim towards Sutro (~321) all comes in including the VHF stations: KGO-7 and KNTV-11 (12). Now my Sister in-law is able to record all her channels.
post #9610 of 10423
I'm in the South Bay near Foothill Expressway and Google says I'm 35 miles from Sutro. Picked up an RCA 1450BR from Frys and have had no luck at all with KNTV or KGO-7. KGO-35 is kind of iffy and KPIX is in and out. KTVU seems to be the only major I can rely on. Anyone down here have luck with an attic mount or outdoor unit? If so, which one? I've got a few trees blocking line of sight and I'm in a 1-story house so I can't go too high. I'd hate to have to upgrade my HDHR to a Prime and pay Comcast for CableCards.
post #9611 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by wintertime View Post

The Terk is both UHF and VHF.

I get about 50 channels with rabbit ears, so this should be similar. I need to check the rabbit ears on the other TV and see how strong ch. 7 is there.


[edit 10/4/13] I moved the Terk up a bit so it wasn't between the TV and the wall, rescanned, and got KGO and KTVU this time. So it's working well now.

Maybe they've improved the Terk. Yours seems to be working well. Sounds like you've found the sweet spot.

Larry
post #9612 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewwho View Post

Has KGO boosted the power since the transition?
Drew

No... they're running with the same 23.8 kW that they've been using since they switched from analog to digital on channel 7. The KGO antenna is at 1703 feet on Sutro Tower's southeast mast.

They did add the translator on channel 35 on Mt. Allison in the South Bay since then.

Larry
post #9613 of 10423
Quote:
Picked up an RCA 1450BR from Frys and have had no luck at all with KNTV or KGO-7.

You're going to need something with larger elements, about 28-34" wide for better odds on those VHF stations.
post #9614 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlou99 View Post

Anyone down here have luck with an attic mount or outdoor unit? If so, which one? I've got a few trees blocking line of sight and I'm in a 1-story house so I can't go too high. I'd hate to have to upgrade my HDHR to a Prime and pay Comcast for CableCards.
I'm in Livermore, 36 miles from Sutro with no line-of-sight according to TV fool.com. With comcast encrypting limited basic, I've just put up a Winegard 7698P with a pre-amp. My HDHR's tune everything from Sutro quite well, plus KRCB from the north bay, and on occasion, KKPX from San Bruno.
post #9615 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

You're going to need something with larger elements, about 28-34" wide for better odds on those VHF stations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scram View Post

I'm in Livermore, 36 miles from Sutro with no line-of-sight according to TV fool.com. With comcast encrypting limited basic, I've just put up a Winegard 7698P with a pre-amp. My HDHR's tune everything from Sutro quite well, plus KRCB from the north bay, and on occasion, KKPX from San Bruno.

Thanks. I was hoping to avoid mounting on to the roof itself. I've got a gable that kind of faces towards Sutro/San Bruno, so I was hoping for something small enough to mount to the fascia boards (RCA ANT751 or ANT800, maybe?). I have a feeling I have more than a couple of back-and-forth trips to various antenna retailers until I find something that works.
post #9616 of 10423
The ANT751 or the ClearStream 2V would be the ones I'd choose from.
post #9617 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

The ANT751 or the ClearStream 2V would be the ones I'd choose from.

I'm renting a house Mountain View, about 30 miles from the Sutro towers. According to TV Fool, I have LOS for everything, but the LOS is blocked by several bushy, mature, overgrown pines at the back of the property. I just put up an ANT751 replacing a dish abandoned by a previous tenant. So far, I am underwhelmed. I get many UHF stations well, but I have very low SS for the VHFs -- KGO and KNTV. This is disappointing, since the main reason I got this ANT-751 was for its VHF performance.

Oddly, UHF KPIX is the worst though -- its SS is in the low 60s, with multipath causing tons of breakups. But KQED (one UHF channel higher) is totally fine -- rock solid, with SS in the 90s. I wish I'd have brought my original CM-4228 from my house back east. Right now, I have one port of a Gen2 HDHR hooked to the outdoor ANT-751, and the other port hooked to a Zenith Silver Sensor (indoor) antenna sitting on a shelf near my HTPC. The VHF reception is roughly the same as the outdoor ANT-751! But the total surprise is that KPIX is rock solid with SS in the upper 80s off the indoor antenna!! As I'd expect, everything else is either worse, or far worse on the indoor antenna. For example, I get KRCB from the ANT-751, but not the Silver Sensor. I plan to dedicate one tuner to KPIX, and and use my other tuners for everything else.

BTW, kudos to KPIX for not having lots of sidecar channels. I haven't seen that sort of bitrate from a CBS affiliate since the early days of WRAL and they'd shut off their subchannels for big sports events,

Drew
post #9618 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewwho View Post

I'm renting a house Mountain View, about 30 miles from the Sutro towers. According to TV Fool, I have LOS for everything, but the LOS is blocked by several bushy, mature, overgrown pines at the back of the property. I just put up an ANT751 So far, I am underwhelmed.

Drew

Bushy , overgrown pines have almost no measurable impact on tv reception. Tv is UHF, and your cell phone is UHF. So any landscape impact would be dropped calls, no service, etc, and spotty cell service. Same goes for tv.
That antenna is way to small.
RCA ant751 is a metro antenna for strong signal areas. ....... Not a suburban antenna for a community like Mountain View ...... 40 minutes from San Francisco.
The 4228 bowtie is a good suburban type model.
....... Or any antenna 6 feet or longer should work just fine.
post #9619 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlou99 View Post


Thanks. I was hoping to avoid mounting on to the roof itself. I've got a gable that kind of faces towards Sutro/San Bruno, so I was hoping for something small enough to mount to the fascia boards (RCA ANT751 or ANT800, maybe?). I have a feeling I have more than a couple of back-and-forth trips to various antenna retailers until I find something that works.

For attics in San Jose ?, .... nothing less than a winegard 7698 pointed towards sutro tower. ......... 30% to 50% less signal in attic installs = 50% bigger antenna required.
post #9620 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post

Bushy , overgrown pines have almost no measurable impact on tv reception. Tv is UHF, and your cell phone is UHF. So any landscape impact would be dropped calls, no service, etc, and spotty cell service. Same goes for tv.
That antenna is way to small.
RCA ant751 is a metro antenna for strong signal areas. ....... Not a suburban antenna for a community like Mountain View ...... 40 minutes from San Francisco.
The 4228 bowtie is a good suburban type model.
....... Or any antenna 6 feet or longer should work just fine.

The ANT-751 is small enough to easily retrofit to the abandoned sat dish mast, its supposedly rated for 40mi, and I'm 30mi from the towers, and its purported VHF strength is why I got it. I'm used to using the 4228 in an attic behind heavy (deciduous) tree cover in the rolling hills back east to pick up stations that were 50+ miles away without issue. I (mistakenly) thought that between the closer channels, the flat terrain near the house, and using an antenna outdoors, it would be a piece of cake here. Boy. was I wrong.

As to cell reception, etc, that depends on what direction the TV & Cell towers are from you. The only trees directly in my path cover about 90 degrees of visibility. Looking any other direction but towards Sutro, it is clear skies. I aimed NW towards Sutro rather than towards the east towards the KGO repeater because I also want all the other channels smile.gif

Drew
post #9621 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewwho View Post

The ANT-751 its supposedly rated for 40mi, and I'm 30mi from the towers, and its purported VHF strength is why I got it.
I (mistakenly) thought that between the closer channels, the flat terrain near the house, and using an antenna outdoors, it would be a piece of cake here. Boy. was I wrong.
Drew

Mountain View has a busy freeway ... (Moving "metal" multipath) plus the SFO airport is also on your path to San Francisco.
Antenna ratings are for ideal, .... picture perfect locations..... with no local issues.
So it should work perfectly on a hilltop facing ... 40 miles from SF.
post #9622 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post

Mountain View has a busy freeway ... (Moving "metal" multipath) plus the SFO airport is also on your path to San Francisco.
Antenna ratings are for ideal, .... picture perfect locations..... with no local issues.
So it should work perfectly on a hilltop facing ... 40 miles from SF.

I've read a couple of "moving metal multipath" theories posted on the forums. I'm not sure about that. All of my indoor antennas are no higher than 8 feet where they are located. A garbage truck can make a pickup only yards away from them, and it never amounts to anything reception-wise. Why?

I've seen several RCA751 in my area. It is about 30 miles from Walnut Grove. They must be working for some.
post #9623 of 10423
This afternoon I found an ANT751 on clearance for 38% off (there's one left at the El Camino Real Best Buy in Sunnyvale if anyone's in the market for one). When put on a test stand (i.e. 5 foot wooden ladder) at about the same elevation as the ANT1450BR indoor flat panel it did no better in that I still couldn't get VHF. When I rested it on the roof ridge (~15 feet above ground level), KNTV and KGO7 started coming in nice and strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewwho View Post

I'm renting a house Mountain View, about 30 miles from the Sutro towers. According to TV Fool, I have LOS for everything, but the LOS is blocked by several bushy, mature, overgrown pines at the back of the property. I just put up an ANT751 replacing a dish abandoned by a previous tenant. So far, I am underwhelmed. I get many UHF stations well, but I have very low SS for the VHFs -- KGO and KNTV. This is disappointing, since the main reason I got this ANT-751 was for its VHF performance.

Oddly, UHF KPIX is the worst though -- its SS is in the low 60s, with multipath causing tons of breakups. But KQED (one UHF channel higher) is totally fine -- rock solid, with SS in the 90s.

I'm about 5 miles due south of your location. While my VHF experience is better than yours, I've noticed the exact same thing regarding KPIX with the ANT751 on the roof ridge. KQED which is 6Mhz away and supposedly on the same tower is solid but I can't get anything decent on KPIX.

After doing the roof ridge experiment, I moved it to the rafters above my garage (~10 feet above ground level and indoors) and KPIX starts coming in nice and strong. KNTV is a bit weaker but still in the 80's and KGO-7 is still in the 90's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post

For attics in San Jose ?, .... nothing less than a winegard 7698 pointed towards sutro tower. ......... 30% to 50% less signal in attic installs = 50% bigger antenna required.

A six footer is going to have to go into the attic. I feel pretty good about an ANT751 or smaller outdoors on the fascia boards of my gable, though.
post #9624 of 10423
Quote:
Bushy , overgrown pines have almost no measurable impact on tv reception. Tv is UHF, and your cell phone is UHF. So any landscape impact would be dropped calls, no service, etc, and spotty cell service. Same goes for tv.

I'd have to roundly disagree with your assessment and comparison.

Trees have plaqued UHF reception for a long time. Here's an article describing one English aerial guy's travails with trees back in the analog days. www.wrightsaerials.co.uk/reference/resources/trees-and-uhf-reception.pdf It's the moisture content that causes the problem. At least deciduous trees will give you a break for a few months in the winter.

Yes, cellular reception is UHF and is pretty reliable, even in trees. It's also very narrow-band and uses substantial error correction routines plus a far lower allowable power levesl (-105 dBm) and lesser SNR requirements while digital TV requires a full 6MHz bandwidth to be received with a much higher power level (-85 dBm) an much higher SNR (15+) in order for it to work.. If you've ever seen a spectrum analyzer display of a signal coming off an antenna behind trees on a windy day, you'd easily recognize why putting an antenna behind trees is an invitation to failure. I've got one on my cell phone I took a while back and it's pretty ugly.
post #9625 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlou99 View Post

I've noticed the exact same thing regarding KPIX with the ANT751 on the roof ridge. KQED which is 6Mhz away and supposedly on the same tower is solid but I can't get anything decent on KPIX.

After doing the roof ridge experiment, I moved it to the rafters above my garage (~10 feet above ground level and indoors) and KPIX starts coming in nice and strong. KNTV is a bit weaker but still in the 80's and KGO-7 is still in the 90's.

Yeah, I'd probably do a LOT better if I were to move the antenna. Whenever I've put up antennas in my last 2 houses back east, I've spent an evening walk/crawling/climbing around in the attic, trying to find a sweet spot. In this case, since its a rental, I both did not want to invest a lot of time for what will be a temporary house, and I did not want to have to make further attachments to the roof and/or facia board. So I was stuck with the location of the abandoned dish.

The indoor / outdoor combo seems to be working for me for now .. (thank God for SageTV, and its ability to treat each tuner separately)

Drew
post #9626 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewwho View Post

Yeah, I'd probably do a LOT better if I were to move the antenna. Whenever I've put up antennas in my last 2 houses back east, I've spent an evening walk/crawling/climbing around in the attic, trying to find a sweet spot.

Time of day is also a factor. That solid KNTV signal I had in the garage rafters last night turned to crap when the sun came up this morning.

Looks like another trip to the rooftop when I get home from work frown.gif
post #9627 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewwho View Post

The ANT-751 is small enough to easily retrofit to the abandoned sat dish mast, its supposedly rated for 40mi, and I'm 30mi from the towers, and its purported VHF strength is why I got it. I'm used to using the 4228 in an attic behind heavy (deciduous) tree cover in the rolling hills back east to pick up stations that were 50+ miles away without issue. I (mistakenly) thought that between the closer channels, the flat terrain near the house, and using an antenna outdoors, it would be a piece of cake here. Boy. was I wrong.

Count yourself lucky because trees do impact reception, especially UHF.

See "Trees and UHF" here:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

Many people up here live in a pine forest and none of them get much of anything on UHF unless they've got a good distance between them and the trees. VHF is much less affected.

I know I've posted here before about the antenna I installed at my cousin/s house in San Leandro that is LOS except for a line of eucalyptus trees. Most of the stations were okay but KCSM was absolutely destroyed by the moving trees. The signal on the analyzer was jumping all over.

Chuck
Edited by Calaveras - 10/7/13 at 2:31pm
post #9628 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

I'd have to roundly disagree with your assessment and comparison.

Trees have plaqued UHF reception for a long time. Here's an article describing one English aerial guy's travails with trees back in the analog days. www.wrightsaerials.co.uk/reference/resources/trees-and-uhf-reception.pdf It's the moisture content that causes the problem. .

Lets look at the big picture..... "Everybody in the 9 county bay area" There may be a "few spots" where trees do have a serious impact. But for most OTA viewers, it is a non-issue.

Last month, forum posters blamed FM for all the reception problems. (So much so, that a reader in Santa Rosa bought a filter that didn't work.)eek.gif
Now, this month .... it's the trees. Next month, .. we will blame the cat !

Sure trees will have some impact for a few spots. But if you live in a forest, far away, that's a bad location to begin with.
A "Line of sight" location, 30 miles away, and someone blames the problem.......( a VHF station)........ on a bushy pine tree.......LOL ....okay

How many indoors antennas stop working ..... when you put up a christmas tree indoors ?

Blaming / guessing a particular thing for ones reception problem is not fair.
If someone says they are LOS, 30 miles away, and have a busy overgrown pine tree blocking VHF reception.
Tree problem ? That location? VHF ? .... highly unlikely...... No
post #9629 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post

Lets look at the big picture..... "Everybody in the 9 county bay area" There may be a "few spots" where trees do have a serious impact. But for most OTA viewers, it is a non-issue.

Last month, forum posters blamed FM for all the reception problems. (So much so, that a reader in Santa Rosa bought a filter that didn't work.)eek.gif
Now, this month .... it's the trees. Next month, .. we will blame the cat !

Sure trees will have some impact for a few spots. But if you live in a forest, far away, that's a bad location to begin with.
A "Line of sight" location, 30 miles away, and someone blames the problem.......( a VHF station)........ on a bushy pine tree.......LOL ....okay

How many indoors antennas stop working ..... when you put up a christmas tree indoors ?

Blaming / guessing a particular thing for ones reception problem is not fair.
If someone says they are LOS, 30 miles away, and have a busy overgrown pine tree blocking VHF reception.
Tree problem ? That location? VHF ? .... highly unlikely...... No

Yup, tried the fm trap and that did nothing.
I just started getting channel 7 tonight. Barely.
Pge is going to check my area for emi sometime this week.
I am going to spend the weekend moving the antenna to the other side of the house just to see what happens.
Still trying to figure out why it worked one day and the next vhf is gone. I have tried every solution other than moving the antenna and checking for emi. I will report back next week with an update.
And believe me guys when I say I have tried all options other than moving the antenna.

Edited by iitywygms - 10/7/13 at 8:22pm
post #9630 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by iitywygms View Post


...
I am going to spend the weekend moving the antenna to the other side of the house just to see what happens.
... other than moving the antenna.
 

Hi,

 

I said, and others have said many times before me,

 

Move the antenna up, down, back and forward and also test all 360 degrees of direction.

 

That's how I found the best place for an antenna to receive KQEH, on a frosted flakes big box next to my HTPC pointing South East when KQEH is to the North East. That has been the best place for the antenna dedicated to KQEH, the second antenna connection to the MyHD tuner.

 

KTNC, I use my old 4 - bay UHF antenna on a rotor with an amp pointed out the end of the partial faraday cage that is my new roof. (See profile)

 

That antenna dedicated for KTNC is on one of my four HDHR tuners and is used only for that one channel. (Three HDHR's are on my main antenna.)

 

It was disconnected in favor of a Terk HDTVa on top of a bookcase when my main antenna was taken down and the 49'ers were on KGO.

 

I moved it around all over the bookcase top and pointed it in all directions until I found a sweet spot for RF 35 and got it solid and the 49'ers won.

 

Due to the larger wavelength of RF 7 you may have to move the antenna up, down, left, right, back, forward a larger distance to see any possible change. Chuck can state the wavelength better, I think that it is less than a meter.

 

SHF


Edited by SFischer1 - 10/7/13 at 9:19pm
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