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post #9781 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,

Is KTNC RF 14 Virtual Channel 42 off the air? (9:15 AM 11/21/2013)

I had to turn the power off to install a GFCI and when I powered back up it is gone.

Has there been any more correspondence on KTNC's move to Sutro?

SHF

Just checked, ...... They are on now ..... 3:15pm
but I saw "no-signal" at 3pm.
Not sure what's going on. Give them a phone call.

The signal is about average here. to somewhat "below average"
No, It's not from sutro tower....... All channels from sutro are 100% signal here.
post #9782 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post


Just checked, ...... They are on now ..... 3:15pm
but I saw "no-signal" at 3pm.
Not sure what's going on. Give them a phone call.

The signal is about average here. to somewhat "below average"
No, It's not from sutro tower....... All channels from sutro are 100% signal here.


Hi,

 

I see that they are on now, 3:32 PM.

 

Great, I will not miss one of the 8 Million stories in the Naked City at 4 PM on 42.4. :D In glorious B&W and very dark

 

KTNC is on Sutro already, 38.3.

 

But that does not help with Retro TV and ThisTV.:o

 

SHF

 

 

P.S. I stumbled onto another FCC page but found nothing new.

 

How do you find the latest info on the FCC site about KTNC?

post #9783 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post


KTNC is on Sutro already, 38.3.

I wonder if KCNS is going to be auctioned next year? When I said KTNC is not on Sutro I meant that they don't have their own transmitter there.


Quote:
How do you find the latest info on the FCC site about KTNC?

I use the CDBS search page to view everything filed by a station:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_sear.htm


I also use TV Query to get a summary of their current licensed status, applications and construction permits.

http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/tv-query-broadcast-station-search


There is nothing about KTNC putting a transmitter on Sutro. It was only mentioned in their last STA extension as something they're looking at. I think they need to file another STA in December to keep the current reduced power status going. I'm keeping an eye out for that before Christmas.

Chuck
post #9784 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

...
There is nothing about KTNC putting a transmitter on Sutro. It was only mentioned in their last STA extension as something they're looking at. I think they need to file another STA in December to keep the current reduced power status going. I'm keeping an eye out for that before Christmas.

Chuck

Hi,

 

The STA that said that they are looking "~putting a transmitter on Sutro" which I found before and cannot find again is what I wish to read again. This was a letter FROM KTNC TO the FCC.

 

The purpose may be to just string along the FCC so that they can stay at their current power forever while keeping the right to go to the higher power.

 

I still think that a RF 14 transmitter on Sutro would be worth it's weight in Gold during the crunch, but that may

just be a smoke screen and never to be funded as a money making effort.

 

I did find another FCC site:

 

Station Profiles « Federal Communications Commission

https://stations.fcc.gov/station-profile/ktnc-tv/document-uploads/path-%3eissues_and_programs_lists

 

SHF

post #9785 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

The STA that said that they are looking "~putting a transmitter on Sutro" which I found before and cannot find again is what I wish to read again. This was a letter FROM KTNC TO the FCC.

This might be what you can't find:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1559911&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=21533

Search the page for "Sutro" and there's only one result.
Quote:
I still think that a RF 14 transmitter on Sutro would be worth it's weight in Gold during the crunch, but that may
just be a smoke screen and never to be funded as a money making effort.

I would argue the opposite. A transmitter on Sutro could be adjacent channel to other area broadcasters and be easier to repack. A transmitter on Mount Diablo would have to have breathing room on the adjacent channels, thus making it more desirable to buy it out to go off the air and not have to repack with said breathing room.

- Trip
post #9786 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post


This might be what you can't find:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1559911&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=21533

Search the page for "Sutro" and there's only one result.
...
- Trip

Hi,

 

Thanks, that is the one I was looking for.

 

Quote:
BEDSTA - 20130619AGH

This does not show up on the FCC pages that Larry's KTNC link in his listings gives. Only an older one, "BDSTA-20110607ABA" shows up. Even using "ktnc-tv" does not find the document.

 

Quote:
I use the CDBS search page to view everything filed by a station: http://licensing.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_sear.htm

 

 

Using "ktnc-tv and looking for "BEDSTA-2013" on that page did find the document.

 

"ktnc" alone does not produce a recent list, only older documents.

 

Thanks again.

 

SHF

post #9787 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,

Thanks, that is the one I was looking for.

This does not show up on the FCC pages that Larry's KTNC link in his listings gives. Only an older one, "BDSTA-20110607ABA" shows up. Even using "ktnc-tv" does not find the document.

There are two different kinds of documents here. The BDSTA is an engineering STA. It contains the actual engineering parameters of the STA. It's valid for six months. After six months, KTNC has to file a BEDSTA, or an STA extension, which is a legal rather than an engineering document. It gets the expiration date of the BDSTA record delayed, but contains no engineering parameters itself, so the original filing stays active to provide those parameters. Every time they want to extend the STA by six more months, they file a new BEDSTA document.

If you look at the RabbitEars technical data for KTNC, you will see that I handle such STAs by listing both file numbers.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=ktnc
Quote:
"ktnc" alone does not produce a recent list, only older documents.

When using that page, you want to do "KTNC%" or else it will look for "KTNC" and not "KTNC-TV."

- Trip
post #9788 of 10433

Hi,

 

As Chuck says, December may be interesting.

 

From: (June 2013)

 

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Attachment/getattachment.jsp?appn=101559913&qnum=5010&copynum=1&exhcnum=1

 

Quote:
TTBG also is preparing to install a test transmitter at Sutro Tower to feed new, top-mounted channel 14 full power antennas. Tower owner Sutro Tower, Inc. has applied to the City of San Francisco for a building permit for those antennas, which remains pending. In addition, work is being planned to remove existing analog transmission equipment from the KCNS facility to make room for an eventual full power KTNC-TV channel 14 transmitter.

 

Are they trying to cover this with a prior construction permit? A new one for Sutro has not been reported.

 

In any case, it's "Retro TV" and "This TV" I am interested in.

 

I did find the redacted agreement that KTNC has for their signal on 38.3.

 

SHF


Edited by SFischer1 - 11/22/13 at 10:36am
post #9789 of 10433
What happens when a station does not send any PSIP info ?

Well anybody wanting to watch KTNC now, Friday, will need to scan in 14. So they are " temporarily " on 14-1,.... 14-2 etc.

42 does not work now ....... And the tv shows no station there.

Not good having 2 stations show up as "14"eek.gif
post #9790 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post

What happens when a station does not send any PSIP info ?

Well anybody wanting to watch KTNC now, Friday, will need to scan in 14. So they are " temporarily " on 14-1,.... 14-2 etc.

42 does not work now ....... And the tv shows no station there.

Not good having 2 stations show up as "14"eek.gif

Hi,

 

This is the second time this has happened! :rolleyes:

 

The first time I asked a question on another AVS list and somebody went into the FCC files and called the person responsible who had no idea something was wrong and that they were effectually turning another station off.

 

EDIT: It has been fixed ~ 1:45 AM Sat AFAIK.   

 

It was KAXT the first time, they turned KDTV off.

 

See this post and following ones:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/823166/the-official-final-dtv-table-of-allotments-channel-change-thread/6420#post_19351930

 

SHF


Edited by SFischer1 - 11/23/13 at 8:26am
post #9791 of 10433
PSIP, or lack thereof, can be a major problem. Remember when both KAXT and KRCB were using virtual channel 22, their old analog channels? Some tuners would show two sets of 22's, while others would show the first one that they got when scanning, or a mix of both. KAXT would lose in most cases, because the scan would get a 22 from KRCB on 23, so when it got to channel 42, it would skip it. Some tuners, like my Sony TV, would give me 22-1, 22-2 and 22-3 from KRCB, then 22-4 through 22-20 from KAXT. KAXT 22-1, 22-2 and 22-3 weren't available.

KAXT solved the problem by going to the FCC and requesting to use channel 1 as their virtual channel. The FCC said OK, so they became the first TV channel 1 on the air. New York City cable had a news channel on 1, but it was cable only.

What can be confusing with PSIP vs no PSIP is that several stations are transmitting on channels that are the virtual channels of another station. Examples: KTNC 14 vs KDTV 14, KAXT 42 vs KTNC 42, KEMO 32 vs KMTP 32, KRON 38 vs KCNS 38, KTVU 44 vs KBCW 44, KQEH 50 vs KEMO 50. Lack of PSIP on any of these stations can cause problems for the other.

I remember when I was still working at KGO and they used to have a PSIP problem. That's when they were transmitting on channel 24. Their PSIP generator would quit working occasionally, so instead of showing up as channel 7 they could only be received by tuning to channel 24. They had to replace the PSIP generator.

KTLN used to have problems with their PSIP generator all the time. You'd often find them only on channel 47 with nothing showing up as channel 68. They finally got that fixed and haven't had a problem for a long time.

I still think that PSIP was a terrible idea in the first place. Yeah, stations wanted to keep their old analog channel ID, like KTVU, there's only one 2, KRON 4, ABC 7, etc., but I think that viewers would have quickly learned their new channel numbers and we could have avoided the PSIP problem entirely.

Larry
SF
post #9792 of 10433
I've found another new sub-channel. KKPX has added Home Shopping Network on 65-5.

Larry
SF
post #9793 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post


I still think that PSIP was a terrible idea in the first place.
Larry
SF

Another BIG problem, is the Government coupon boxes are failing due to DEFECTIVE no-name, off brand capacitors inside them. (On the power board). Sucking your tax dollars, for NON-TESTED junk in return.

This is a "double-whammy" for the environment. With toxic electronic waste. You dump a perfectly good tv AND the converter box to the garbage dump........... All because a 25 cent parts fail.mad.gif
Think about that.
Thanks for nothing ...... U.S. Department of Commerce .... converter box coupon program.

Imagine your 30 year old American or Japanese made tv is useless because the digital converter boxes go bad in about a year.
My tv is on it's 3 rd converter box now....... And I have a dead channel master box in storage. (Bad capacitors) on the power board.

Another bad one is "Digital - Stream" (Radio Shack)


The PSIP problem of the digital transition ...... is not the only problem facing viewers.
post #9794 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post

This is a "double-whammy" for the environment. With toxic electronic waste. You dump a perfectly good tv AND the converter box to the garbage dump........... All because a 25 cent parts fail.mad.gif

Can you really put a TV in the trash in Hayward?

Electronic waste has to be recycled here. I have a box of old electronics that I need to get to a transfer station that will accept it.

Chuck
post #9795 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

I still think that PSIP was a terrible idea in the first place. Yeah, stations wanted to keep their old analog channel ID, like KTVU, there's only one 2, KRON 4, ABC 7, etc., but I think that viewers would have quickly learned their new channel numbers and we could have avoided the PSIP problem entirely.

As I've said many times I agree 100%. Most stations could have phased in the new digital number and phased out the old analog number. I noticed that my parents don't pay any attention to the station channel numbers. They have the cable numbers memorized.

I'd like to have the ability to turn the virtual channel system on and off. Seems like that would be easy to do in software.

Chuck
post #9796 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Can you really put a TV in the trash in Hayward?

Electronic waste has to be recycled here. I have a box of old electronics that I need to get to a transfer station that will accept it.

Chuck

The Goodwill store here takes electronic waste with no questions asked. Perhaps they all do.
post #9797 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Electronic waste has to be recycled here. I have a box of old electronics that I need to get to a transfer station that will accept it.

Chuck

E-waste is "sorted" here. The stuff is sold to Guiyu, China and Hong Kong. The stuff goes to a third world outdoor landfill ...... where they try to recapture the lead, gold,etc...... in a toxic type fashion.

www.cbsnews.com/videos/the-electronic-wasteland/

I do not know of any CRT type of disassembly recyclery..... in the United States. ..... The stuff is sold to a third world landfill.


I fixed the power board capacitors.smile.gif Converter box works now.smile.gif So the 35" , 300 pounds of glass, CRT is back in business.smile.gif LOL
post #9798 of 10433
KTNC Signal Quality

I noticed that the SNR of KTNC has been stuck at 24 dB for a couple of days. It's normally 31 dB. The signal strength looks to be normal. No other stations are affected. Maybe they have a transmitter problem.

Is anyone else seeing something similar on KTNC?

Chuck
post #9799 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

KTNC Signal Quality

I noticed that the SNR of KTNC has been stuck at 24 dB for a couple of days. It's normally 31 dB. The signal strength looks to be normal. No other stations are affected. Maybe they have a transmitter problem.

Is anyone else seeing something similar on KTNC?

Chuck

Hi,

 

Per your request I am watching the unfinished capture of one of the 8 Million Stories in the Naked City. (KTNC  42.4 - 4 PM)

 

I would rate the capture as above average, which is not saying much. It is in B&W and very dark as usual so requires a low number of bits in the channel.

 

Most of the time I can observe video and audio frames being lost at a high rate, but today is much better and very watch-able compared with many Naked City stores.

 


 Antenna notes.

 

My attic UHF antenna on a rotor and amp is in a partial faraday cage pointed due North out the end of the building and is received by a dedicated HDHR tuner.

 

See my profile pictures P0004311.jpg, P0004316.jpg for the shape of the metal roof which the antenna is under.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/g/a/2165469/nanis-cm4228hd/

 

SHF


Edited by SFischer1 - 11/27/13 at 6:22pm
post #9800 of 10433
Most people nowadays don't know what UHF / VHF is. ..... (tvs do not have UHF / VHF dials anymore)
And even less people know what a UHF antenna looks like......

You could paint that thing brown (Like the plumbing & vent pipes are) ........ And it would only be noticed by the trained eye.
......must be some internet device..eek.gif
post #9801 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post

Most people nowadays don't know what UHF / VHF is. ..... (tvs do not have UHF / VHF dials anymore)
And even less people know what a UHF antenna looks like......

You could paint that thing brown (Like the plumbing & vent pipes are) ........ And it would only be noticed by the trained eye.
......must be some internet device..eek.gif


Hi,

 

:p :cool: :confused:

 

The UHF 4-Bay Bow-Tie on an Rotor in my attic was mounted there about 1973. :)

 

It looks like the right or left half of my CM4228HD on the outside of the roof in my profile.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/g/i/126095/channel-master-cm4228hd-clear-picture/sort/display_order/

 

At about the same time a VHF antenna was mounted in the Attic tied up with string. :)

 

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/V4_antenna.html

 

That is a low VHF only antenna, mine is a low / high so there are shorter elements in front of the low ones.

 

The VHF antenna is totally useless now due to the new metal roof (See the pictures in the same album.)

 

It appears that a VHF low / high antenna picture is hard to find today.

 

Thus you have made a very valid comment.

 

SHF


Edited by SFischer1 - 11/28/13 at 7:22am
post #9802 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

KTNC Signal Quality

I noticed that the SNR of KTNC has been stuck at 24 dB for a couple of days. It's normally 31 dB. The signal strength looks to be normal. No other stations are affected. Maybe they have a transmitter problem.

Is anyone else seeing something similar on KTNC?

Chuck

KTNC's signal is about normal this evening. Might be a dB or two low. Normally it's 22-23 dB, tonight it was 21 dB. Didn't notice that it was low when I scanned the channels on Monday. KEMO from Mt. St. Helena was low here tonight. Normally it's 20 to 22 dB; tonight it was down at 16 dB.

Larry
post #9803 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

KTNC's signal is about normal this evening. Might be a dB or two low. Normally it's 22-23 dB, tonight it was 21 dB. Didn't notice that it was low when I scanned the channels on Monday. KEMO from Mt. St. Helena was low here tonight. Normally it's 20 to 22 dB; tonight it was down at 16 dB.

Larry

I think I need to rephrase my question. smile.gif Is anyone getting an SNR from KTNC >24 dB? Or, if you don't have SNR, a Signal Quality >90%?

KTNC is still stuck at an SNR of 24 dB here this morning. The normal SNR I see is 31 dB which sometimes drops a little if the signal strength drops due to temporary poor conditions.

I think KTNC has a transmitter problem which is limiting their SNR to 24 dB. This would be below the minimum recommended which I think is around 27 dB. From what I've read most transmitters are able to obtain SNRs in the low to mid 30's. The SNR at the receiver can never exceed the transmitted SNR.

Chuck
post #9804 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post


I think I need to rephrase my question. smile.gif Is anyone getting an SNR from KTNC >24 dB? Or, if you don't have SNR, a Signal Quality >90%?

KTNC is still stuck at an SNR of 24 dB here this morning. The normal SNR I see is 31 dB which sometimes drops a little if the signal strength drops due to temporary poor conditions.

I think KTNC has a transmitter problem which is limiting their SNR to 24 dB. This would be below the minimum recommended which I think is around 27 dB. From what I've read most transmitters are able to obtain SNRs in the low to mid 30's. The SNR at the receiver can never exceed the transmitted SNR.

Chuck


Hi,

 

Would a 20 - 30 second analyses by TSReader be helpful?

 

I just read how do a full stream capture with my HDHR.

 

SHF

post #9805 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post


Hi,

Would a 20 - 30 second analyses by TSReader be helpful?

I just read how do a full stream capture with my HDHR.

SHF

I don't think that reads the SNR of the station.

Chuck
post #9806 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I think I need to rephrase my question. smile.gif Is anyone getting an SNR from KTNC >24 dB? Or, if you don't have SNR, a Signal Quality >90%?

KTNC is still stuck at an SNR of 24 dB here this morning. The normal SNR I see is 31 dB which sometimes drops a little if the signal strength drops due to temporary poor conditions.

I think KTNC has a transmitter problem which is limiting their SNR to 24 dB. This would be below the minimum recommended which I think is around 27 dB. From what I've read most transmitters are able to obtain SNRs in the low to mid 30's. The SNR at the receiver can never exceed the transmitted SNR.

Chuck

I am seeing 70%-75% HDHR signal quality on RF14 right now.
post #9807 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post


I don't think that reads the SNR of the station.

Chuck


Hi,

 

I think you are right.

 

Toast0's charts do show SNR but since he inserted a splitter KTNC cannot be received acceptable to produce a valid chart.

 

SHF

post #9808 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Crawler View Post

I am seeing 70%-75% HDHR signal quality on RF14 right now.

If KTNC doesn't normally read 90% or higher you won't notice a difference.

Using my DTVPal DVR as the receiver, KTNC normally shows a Signal Quality of 100%. Now it's showing a Signal Quality of 80%.

The more time goes by with them stuck at SNR 24 dB the more I think they have a transmitter problem.

Chuck
post #9809 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post


Hi,

I think you are right.

Toast0's charts do show SNR but since he inserted a splitter KTNC cannot be received acceptable to produce a valid chart.

SHF

Okay. I misinterpreted before. I wasn't thinking of the signal analysis, only the data stream from the station. Too bad Toast0 doesn't receive a strong signal from KTNC. That would be very helpful.

I'm beginning to think I get as good of a signal from KTNC as anyone does which is kind of weird since Mt. Diablo is 80 miles from here.

Chuck
post #9810 of 10433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

...

I'm beginning to think I get as good of a signal from KTNC as anyone does which is kind of weird since Mt. Diablo is 80 miles from here.

Chuck

Hi,

 

Right. And the Devil Mountain is not in the way like for other stations.

 

I have LOS to Mt. Diablo, well I could see it poking above the lower hills before the trees grew too high (40 Years of growth).

 

The Naked City at 4 PM is the only program I capture from "Retro TV" currently. My reports are a judgment based on watching the entire 4 - 5 PM time period.

 

Due to football it may be tomorrow for another report.

 

I do not think watching the HDHR GUI alone is a good judgment point, having VLC displaying on the same screen at the same time, yes. The HDHR GUI samples are once a second, glitches show up readily in the video and audio.

 

 

SHF

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