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post #9871 of 10423
To be fair, ch 6 is a very Low Power signal from the Santa Cruz Mountains so one could understand why it might be problematic to receive it up in the bay area. And while i dont have my antenna plugged into anything that can receive an analog signal anymore, when i did KBKF-LD came in just fine down here in its coverage area. And there is quite a bit of fm interference where i am 1.5 mile east of Coyote Peak, where the KBAY and KSJS, and an asian language station signals eminate from. On one of my cheap radios their signals drown out the entire fm dial
Edited by CTEL08 - 12/20/13 at 6:22am
post #9872 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Your questions are basically answered by your last sentence. The money received for This and Retro are probably dwarfed by an auction payout, which is what Titan is concerned about. I suspect the numbers definitely add up for continuing to pay rent and power bills for a 12 kW ERP facility on Mount Diablo along with a full-power facility on Mount Sutro. Turning off the Mount Diablo signal likely makes KTNC significantly less valuable when you think about it that way.

Isn't KTNC required to meet the terms of their construction permit which is 40KW? And isn't this why they're going through all this?

Quote:
Look at all the stations the 40 kW KTNC facility cannot co-exist with: http://www.rabbitears.info/repackcheck.php?fid=21533

Do you have more explanation to interpret this? What does channels 3, 10 and 20 have to do with it?

Chuck
post #9873 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Isn't KTNC required to meet the terms of their construction permit which is 40KW? And isn't this why they're going through all this?

What I'm suggesting is that they could very easily modify their permit to specify a DTS featuring a transmitter on Mount Sutro and a second site at the current location at the 12 kW they've been allowed to run. They could argue the loss area in the valley is minimal and get it approved.

The reason they've tried to do the fix on Mount Diablo is probably because of how expensive and troublesome the local zoning is for doing work on Sutro. Doing the 40 kW from Mount Diablo is probably a lot cheaper if it was feasible to fix, which it's sounding like it is not.
Quote:
Do you have more explanation to interpret this? What does channels 3, 10 and 20 have to do with it?

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/fcc-outlines-repacking-techniques/221092

Search for the word "proxy" and that paragraph explains it. One channel per band.

- Trip
post #9874 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post


Search for the word "proxy" and that paragraph explains it. One channel per band.

- Trip

I'm still lost. Channels 3, 10 and 20 are used as proxies for each band; i.e. low VHF, high VHF and UHF for the coverage area? So just exactly what does the table mean?

Chuck
Edited by Calaveras - 12/21/13 at 2:41pm
post #9875 of 10423
Yes. The table shows which channel relationships are disallowed. So, KAXT-CD cannot co-exist with KTNC on any band and on either the same or adjacent channels.

- Trip
post #9876 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Yes. The table shows which channel relationships are disallowed. So, KAXT-CD cannot co-exist with KTNC on any band and on either the same or adjacent channels.

- Trip

Okay. So in order for the station to co-exist with all the others in the table there would need to be a complete column of green checks. Is that right?

Chuck
post #9877 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Why did "This TV" and "Retro TV" move to KTNC?

To my knowledge, This has always been on KTNC. Retro probably moved because Titan could make more money leasing channels out than airing Retro.
Quote:
I was thinking that is a good plan but does the money add up?

[...]

Is the money received for "This TV" and "Retro TV" more than they would save by not paying KCNS and the cost of a new transmitter and ongoing costs?

When the big TV crunch occurs, and it has been delayed once so far, the RF 14 transmitter may well be worth it's weight in gold as I said before.

Your questions are basically answered by your last sentence. The money received for This and Retro are probably dwarfed by an auction payout, which is what Titan is concerned about. I suspect the numbers definitely add up for continuing to pay rent and power bills for a 12 kW ERP facility on Mount Diablo along with a full-power facility on Mount Sutro. Turning off the Mount Diablo signal likely makes KTNC significantly less valuable when you think about it that way.

Look at all the stations the 40 kW KTNC facility cannot co-exist with: http://www.rabbitears.info/repackcheck.php?fid=21533

- Trip

Hi,

 

OK,

 

But looking at it another way, if they want to stay on the air (While making money of course) because they have an audience to serve, does the money then add up?

 

EstrellaTV IMHO will not ever want to go off OTA as most of their viewers cannot afford cable, internet  or smartphone data charges.

 

Do stations < 31 who "like their frequency", "get to keep their frequency" referring to another current Federal Government discussion?

 

The Sutro transmitter does not need to have VC 42.2 like Diablo and Diablo then would not need VC 42.1 (Sac and SF may be reversed) as only the ads are different AFAIK.

 

Stations >= 31 then could give up their frequency and join KTNC who could add more SD channels. (Many more like KAXT) Thus more money coming in.

 

Or could KTNC be purchased by a station >= 31 like KTVU so they can have a HD main channel and two SD channels, one for EstrellaTV.

 

I just do not think most stations will just want to take the money and sign off. More stations with 16:9 on two or three streams and more like KAXT yes.

 

There are many SD streams that are like EstrellaTV that have an audience to serve and will not be interested in the money.

 

SHF

 

FAIL ABORT SOS QUIT BLUE SCREEN Go away FCC, I want my Free HDTV!

post #9878 of 10423
My understanding of the auction is that no station will be forced to sell or give up their channel.

My complete and total speculation is that few if any profitable stations will sell or volunteer to be repacked. The spectrum after the auction will have a few holes in it but not enough to be of any use to wireless internet. The idea that wide swaths of spectrum will be cleared out after the auction is just another utopian government pipe dream poorly thought through by whoever dreamed it up. After the failure is obvious, the only choices will be to give up on the idea and allow new profitable stations to refill the holes or pass laws that force repacking thus going back on the original promise. My bet would be on the latter.

Chuck
post #9879 of 10423

Hi,

 

I have seen on TV many variations on the idea of a single homeowner not wanting to sell and agents keep knocking on the door with bigger and bigger bags of money and then the thugs start beating up family members and then a big bomb. Problem solved.

 

Should real TV station drama be any different from fake TV drama?

 

SHF

post #9880 of 10423
I live on the edge of Crocker Amazon and Excelsior. I'm having trouble picking up the KTSF and ION channels OTA, as in I receive no signal at all. All the other channels in it's color category works fine. I have the Terk antenna. Is it the antenna or just where I live?
post #9881 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by viperx116 View Post

I live on the edge of Crocker Amazon and Excelsior. I'm having trouble picking up the KTSF and ION channels OTA, as in I receive no signal at all. All the other channels in it's color category works fine. I have the Terk antenna. Is it the antenna or just where I live?

Hi,

 

VC 26.1 RF 27.1 KTSF Independent San Francisco Mt. San Bruno

 

VC 65.1 RF 41.3 KKPX Ion San Jose Mt. San Bruno

 

These two stations are NOT on Sutro.

 

They are in opposite directions perhaps for you, I cannot find Crocker Amazon in San Francisco.

 

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

 

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

 

Those are two useful tools, supplying your zip code would perhaps help.  

 

SHF

post #9882 of 10423
Zip is 94112. It shows the distance is only 2 miles, which is even closer.
post #9883 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by viperx116 View Post

Zip is 94112. It shows the distance is only 2 miles, which is even closer.

Hi,

 

Then it's time to move the Terk all around the room to try and find a sweet spot for those stations.

 

The location may be very different from Sutro.

 

If you only have windows facing Suto, then good luck.

 

Indoor antennas are always problematic.

 

SHF

post #9884 of 10423

Hi,

 

If you scroll down on the "TV Fool Google map" titled "Interactive TV Coverage Browser" and click on KKPX or KTSF and then wait you will see that you are likely in the RED, not good.

 

Link again:

 

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

 

Also click "Show lines pointing to each transmitter".

 

SHF

post #9885 of 10423
Are there any hills between you and Mt. San Bruno that might be blocking your signal?

Do you receive NBC KNTV 11? Other stations besides NBC, KTSF and KKPX - Ion are two low power stations: KFTL 28 and KMMC 40. By any chance are you getting those two stations?

For a complete list of stations, check out my DTV Station List linked below.

Larry
SF
post #9886 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by viperx116 View Post

I live on the edge of Crocker Amazon and Excelsior. I'm having trouble picking up the KTSF and ION channels OTA, as in I receive no signal at all. All the other channels in it's color category works fine. I have the Terk antenna. Is it the antenna or just where I live?

Should be no known problems at your location..... Possibly Antenna overload, .... if your antenna is amplified.
other than moving the antenna around, you can try flipping it to vertical, or tilting it. Any antenna with a built in amplifier, will most likely need to be replaced...... to a passive one.
post #9887 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Are there any hills between you and Mt. San Bruno that might be blocking your signal?

Do you receive NBC KNTV 11? Other stations besides NBC, KTSF and KKPX - Ion are two low power stations: KFTL 28 and KMMC 40. By any chance are you getting those two stations?

For a complete list of stations, check out my DTV Station List linked below.

Larry
SF

I can get 11.1, but not the other two.

Also noticed I can't get 36.1 either. Not sure if that's a lost hope since the tower is 35 miles away. Maybe I just need a better ante
post #9888 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by viperx116 View Post

Maybe I just need a better antenna.

If you can get a small antenna up in the attic or on the roof you'll probably see a world of difference. I've found that even though the stations aren't far away, reflections off of surrounding buildings and hills can cause lots of problems. An antenna that's higher gets a better direct signal and you get more reliable reception.

Larry
post #9889 of 10423
It's been fun watching the signal strength meter for the various distant stations this afternoon. Signals have been all over the place for some stations. We have an overcast sky here... the first time in a long time, but no rain.

The Walnut Grove stations have been changing from very weak to really strong. KMAX 31 (RF21) reached 28 dB SNR, a good 8 dB above normal, while at the same time KQCA 58 (RF 46) was below the cliff edge. I've never seen that before! Over the next 10 minutes KQCA slowly increased back to normal and then continued to rise to 22 dB. KMAX stayed above 25 dB. The two VHF channels KVIE 6 (RF9) and KXTV 10 (RF10) were also much stronger than normal, reaching as high as 22 db. Most of the time they're normally flirting with the cliff edge here. I received both KSPX 29 (RF48) and KTFK 64/19 (RF26) briefly in the 15 dB range, enough to log their PSIP data, but the picture didn't lock up. KCRA 3 (RF 35) was even strong enough to override KGO for a while. KOVR 13 (RF 25) had a steady signal at 17-18 dB and didn't vary like the others for some reason.

KTNC 42 (RF 14) and KDTS 52 (RF 8) were holding at their normal levels, KTNC at 22 to 23 dB and KDTS at 15 to 17, with little change.

KEMO 50 (RF 32), KRCB 22 (RF 23) and KTLN 68 (RF 47) were all slightly above normal, but nothing significant. They were all holding steady at 2-3 dB above normal.

KAXT 1 (RF42), on the other hand, normally anywhere from below the cliff edge at 14 dB up to 17 dB was up to 20 dB this afternoon. The other South Bay channels, KDTV 14 (RF 51), KICU 36 (RF 36), KSTS 48 (RF 49) and KQEH 54 (RF 50), were all a dB or two above normal.

No real distant stations, like KCVU 20 and KNVN 24 from Chico that I've received in the past, were observed today, but I had fun with the rest.

Larry
SF
post #9890 of 10423
Signals are all back to normal today.

Larry
SF
post #9891 of 10423
Over the last week I've had a lot of below average conditions to Walnut Grove. Sutro has been poor too. Yesterday afternoon there were several hours of exceptional conditions to Walnut Grove. I don't get enough of that and when I do it doesn't last long. Signal strengths were up 4-5 dB which raised SNRs 3-4 dB putting some stations at better than 30dB.

Chuck
post #9892 of 10423
Good luck trying to record anything from KTNC tonight.....
..... They are doing a flip flop .....14.....42.....14
Well it was 14 at 10pm
Now it's 42 at 11pm

So if your DVR records no-signal..... go figure
post #9893 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post

Good luck trying to record anything from KTNC tonight.....
..... They are doing a flip flop .....14.....42.....14

These devices all act differently.

My DVR doesn't care what the PSIP says. It doesn't allow 2 different stations to be mapped to the same real channel such as KEMO and KION both going to 32. If I want to record KION I just program from the KEMO schedule and move the antenna to KION and it still records.

Chuck
post #9894 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

My DVR doesn't care what the PSIP says.
Chuck
Well if I zeroed out my scan, I could do everything with RF numbers only too.
I do that sometimes to check RF 2 (for example) for possibly a weak station that wont lock.
If you entered 42-1 to record, .... and the station stops sending PSIP..... Nothing will be recorded on 42.... That stream of PSIP must be constant here or the device drops the connection between PSIP and real RF
The clock, EPG, and PSIP are in real time..... Nothing is saved...... The connection to a fake channel is dropped when they stop sending the info.
Same with the clock, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

It doesn't allow 2 different stations to be mapped to the same real channel such as KEMO and KION both going to 32.
Chuck
It would be impossible to scan in 2 different stations on the same RF.
So the device switches for you based upon real time PSIP sent.
Example... If KTVU stopped sending PSIP, .... your device would have a PSIP of 44-1 for KBCW and a (default . PSIP) of 44-1 for KTVU......(And nothing would be recorded)
.....( And nothing would be recorded on 2-1) also.
post #9895 of 10423
My Sony TV will allow two virtual channels to map to the same RF channel, as in KEMO 50.1 and KION 46.1 both tune to RF 32. My DVR will not allow that.

Maybe I need to run another test but I was pretty sure that I've tuned to KEMO and then recorded KION because I couldn't use 46.1.

Chuck
post #9896 of 10423
If I pull the antenna plug.... and cut the digital stream ..... the last data is saved.
If new PSIP info comes in, ... It "overwrites" the old stuff.
post #9897 of 10423
This "addressable" type of OTA- DTV is underutilized.
In theory, the future, it could be possible to have OTA Pay per view.

Right now...
Station PSIP errors and defaults.... are causing immediate regional outages.... abrupt channel changes....etc.

A SIM card could control individual customers.
post #9898 of 10423
Sorry it took me so long to get back with you. Holidays and all that... trying not to think about work. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Okay. So in order for the station to co-exist with all the others in the table there would need to be a complete column of green checks. Is that right?

Yes, if I'm understanding your question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

EstrellaTV IMHO will not ever want to go off OTA as most of their viewers cannot afford cable, internet  or smartphone data charges.

[...]

There are many SD streams that are like EstrellaTV that have an audience to serve and will not be interested in the money.

While that's true, KTNC is not an Estrella O&O. KTNC is owned by a speculator, so they would just toss Estrella to the wolves and take the payout.
Quote:
Do stations < 31 who "like their frequency", "get to keep their frequency" referring to another current Federal Government discussion?

No, stations below 31 are subject to being repacked.
Quote:
Or could KTNC be purchased by a station >= 31 like KTVU so they can have a HD main channel and two SD channels, one for EstrellaTV.

Stations can opt to channel share but I don't know how many will actually do so. They don't even have to be co-owned to do so, and it is voluntary just like anything else in this auction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

My understanding of the auction is that no station will be forced to sell or give up their channel.

Correct.
Quote:
My complete and total speculation is that few if any profitable stations will sell or volunteer to be repacked. The spectrum after the auction will have a few holes in it but not enough to be of any use to wireless internet. The idea that wide swaths of spectrum will be cleared out after the auction is just another utopian government pipe dream poorly thought through by whoever dreamed it up. After the failure is obvious, the only choices will be to give up on the idea and allow new profitable stations to refill the holes or pass laws that force repacking thus going back on the original promise. My bet would be on the latter.

If the auction is deemed a "failure" then nothing happens. No stations are bought and no repacking occurs. Not really sure what constitutes a "failure" of the auction, other than costs exceeding revenues, but I would assume less than 60 MHz cleared across most of the populated areas of the country would lead to a result like that.

I, of course, have an opinion on this, and I suspect most here know what it is, but now that I actually work for the FCC on this very thing, I'm not sure I should share my opinion again.

- Trip
post #9899 of 10423

On the subject of the "repacking" after the spectrum auctions are completed:

 

Is there any chance that some technological advances could come along that would make digital OTA transmissions

on VHF frequencies more effective than they currently are? And if those advances would require upgrading transmitters in some

way to use an enhanced version of ATSC, could some of the money raised by the auctions actually be used to subsidize the upgrades?

I suppose that would be a decision for Congress, not for the FCC directly, but I'm trying to look on the bright side and imagine steps that

would actually produce a resurgence of interest in OTA broadcasts and thereby temper the power of the satellite and cable companies.

 

When I grew up, most places had only four or five channels available, but the programming was, on the whole, better than what we now find

on cable systems that have a hundred channels.

post #9900 of 10423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post


I, of course, have an opinion on this, and I suspect most here know what it is, but now that I actually work for the FCC on this very thing, I'm not sure I should share my opinion again.

- Trip

I didn't know. I guess congratulations are in order. I don't know anyone who is more familiar with the rules in this area than you are. I appreciate your expert opinion.

Chuck
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