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Geforce FX5700. Is it time for Radeon to leave your machine? Yes it is.  

post #1 of 433
2/21/04 at 1:16am
Thread Starter 
Hi.

As some of you might know, I just recieved my ASUS Geforce and have
plugged it in my HTPC replacing a Radeon9500. In between I had my
Geforce 5600 in the machine, too. Before any of these cards, I used
a Radeon7500.

I'll break this review up in two parts, this being the first(!).
Please keep in mind that this is a raw card, no MP-1 mods or anything.

The projector is a Marquee 8500 Ultra fed by RGBHV. The night's test
disks were: Resident Evil, Pink Floyd: Live at Pompeii, The Fast and the
Furious, and a Danish series called 'Rejseholdet' (Unit One is the
english title).

There is no question about it, this card is way better than the Radeon
9500 I've used for some time now. I saw it right away during Resident
evil, especially in the backgrounds. They were way sharper and much
cleaner. I must admit that I didn't expect a large difference, or none at
all. The scenes inside the complex, in the beginning had razorsharp
backgrounds.

But what really caught my eye, was the color. They were so vivid, I don't
know how to explain this, but it was like there were more of them during
a transition. Like when you use a paint program and choose gradient
fill, and you use 100 colors instead of 70. I hope I can be understood:rolleyes:

Then I popped in Live at Pompeii, due to the sunlit photography which
looks awesome. This is where the card really came through. Once again,
amazing color reproduction, the ground in the ambitheater is many
different colors now, from dark dirt to light. It also seem a lot sharper,
at far distance camera work, I could still make out details on persons
and so on. This must count as better backgrounds due to less noise.

The music never sounded better:D

Yet another thing was the dynamics of the image. It felt like the contrast
range had been increased. I didn't set everything up 100%, but toyed
a little with gamma. Maybe it's just me, but it seems to work a lot better
than on the Radeons. If I cranked it up high, I didn't get the same problems
as with the 9500, greenish image and so on.

My girlfriend's troubled DVD's with her favorite series, didn't have any
improvement though. Seems crap is crap. However, she'll look into them
tonight, maybe her opinion differs. She has spend MANY hours, so she'll
be able to see it right away.

It was during the series that I first saw the problem. The lipsync was off
- way off -. I inserted Roger Waters 'In The Flesh' (PAL) and yes, it
was horrible. I've used 72hz for some time now, without ANY problems
for both PAL and NTSC and HD, but now we had lip sync problems.
Everyones #1 fear. Since it was a PAL disk, I upped powerstrip to 75hz,
and everything was normal again. Go figure.

The Fast and the Furious also looked great, with a lot of background detail,
I've never really seen before. Long shots of the city, masses of people etc.

So, my initial thought is that this is the card for me, and maybe for you too.
I had my eyes on it for gaming, but since it did such an amazing job on the
screen, it'll never see 3D games. Once again, the gamma setting is really
great, which is important for me, the image is tight and razorsharp with
GREAT and VERY vivid colors, by far surpassing the Radeons I've used.

Part II will come tonight, I'll use AVIA and then make the ultimate test:
2001: a space odyssey. White spaceships askew on black backgrounds.
Do you remember seeing Heywood Floyd sitting in front of the craziest
moiré ever? I'll go nitpicking tonight.

If you're looking to buy a new card, consider this one, for sure. Be advised
that you might have lipsync issues.

Thanks for your time,

Nicholas

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post #2 of 433
2/21/04 at 2:19am
I'm going to buy one. So is Asus the way to go? I've compared pics and it appears the asus uses different caps from all the others. Are they better? The others seem to be all smt caps and all appear identical for parts but asus appears to differ a bit at least in the caps.

Any ideas here to help the choosing? I'd even choose based on bundled software differences if there's no real hardware difference for pq, but first choice would be the cleanest video obviously.

I'm sure glad I stuck with the 8500 as long as I did and hadn't already upgraded.

I better order it online. If I go to Fry's I'll walk out with too much other stuff. Still trying to wait on HDD's with no rebate BS.

Troy
post #3 of 433
2/21/04 at 2:43am
Quote:
Originally posted by pcCinema


I'm going to buy one. So is Asus the way to go? I've compared pics and it appears the asus uses different caps from all the others. Are they better?

Troy
No, wait on the NVIDIA. It's physically very different from the ASUS 5700. The visual difference is hugh. The NVIDIA has much more (and larger) caps than the ASUS, plus it shows far more components than the ASUS.

So it appears that they both may be using the same processor, but we're not sure that the ASUS has the same "Ultra" feature, or that it's has the same engine that the 5700 is using, because the Nvidia even has a much larger heatsink.

There's no way of looking at the two cards and saying that they are the same. So what would be the difference.

What we are testing with the 5700 Ultra could be a feature that is not in the ASUS, and may not benefit from the DVD software that is being beta tested on the HTPC forum, and offered by Nvidia only.
post #4 of 433
2/21/04 at 3:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by mp20748
No, wait on the NVIDIA. It's physically very different from the ASUS 5700. The visual difference is hugh. The NVIDIA has much more (and larger) caps than the ASUS, plus it shows far more components than the ASUS.
Did I miss something here, I didn't think NVidia made cards?
post #5 of 433
2/21/04 at 3:26am
What about this one? http://www.bjorn3d.com/Material/Images/399_P1010035.JPG
post #6 of 433
2/21/04 at 4:01am
The MSI card certainly seems to be missing the same chips and has a similar heatsink layout to the BFG card.

Could be that MSI source their cards from BFG with only minimal changes (colour of the board being the most obvious).
Paul
post #7 of 433
2/21/04 at 4:01am
The card that I have has NVIDIA on it only. I have no idea who made it, but do know that there are several card manufacturers who use the same chip set. My point is, all of fhese cards may not be the same in programming and such as the Nvidia card is. Nvidia is the only one that I know of that has designed a software DVD player for their cards that is in beta testing on the HTPC forum. As with ATI, just because the chipset is the same, that does not mean that the soltware will work on every card that has the chipset.

I had a Nvidia card sent to me for testing from a software designer. I'm also having three Nvidia cards sent to me directly from someone at Nvida for testing. One thing I know from playing around with the cards, and that is that you cannot assume that they're all the same in performance, mainly because each board can have different components as well as the Chip set can be externally flashed by the manufacturer of the card to perform precise functions.
post #8 of 433
2/21/04 at 4:11am
Ah, that explains it. I think Mike has a "reference" design card and not a retail card as such although retail cards from the likes of Creative, BFG, etc may be identical there is no guarantee. See image attached.

I'm fairly sure that Creative did use reference card designs in their earlier GeForce card releases but not sure about nowadays?

Paul
LL
post #9 of 433
2/21/04 at 4:23am
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ht=Nvidia+Beta
post #10 of 433
2/21/04 at 5:10am
Personally, as one definitely in the dark, I think you all should wait for the holy grail. :)

God what gibberish to a computer illiterate like me.

Clearly, MP has some prototype NVIDIA cards, i.e., versions of the NVIDIA card not yet on the market. Could these be improved for CRT use by the MP mod?
post #11 of 433
2/21/04 at 5:28am
Mark, have you read any of Dan Brown? You need to go read the The Da Vinci Code and then re-read your post! Nich, great feedback, but I am a little more than just curious as to the origins of the card he is beta testing.

Mike, was the beta-teser program short-term (meaning its over with for applicants)? BTW, all of you are going to keep me in trouble with the little women in my life. :)
post #12 of 433
2/21/04 at 6:23am
I believe that Nichs' card is a non ultra FX5700. Is that correct Nich? This may explain the difference in components.
post #13 of 433
2/21/04 at 6:27am
Thread Starter 
Yes, you're right. Non-ultra.


Nicholas
post #14 of 433
2/21/04 at 6:53am
I've been looking around and it does not appear to me NVIDIA actually manufacturers cards. That's why I ask which one to buy in the other thread. Am I missing something?

PS: BFG Technology (Asylum) is what Vern is using and Terry is testing.
post #15 of 433
2/21/04 at 9:21am
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/gffx/gffx-35.html :D
post #16 of 433
2/21/04 at 1:07pm
WanMan,

the beta tester program can be entered at the HTPC forum, but there is a qualifier , only the folks who have purchased the previous card and have proof of purchased can apply for the beta program from Nvidia.
post #17 of 433
2/21/04 at 1:19pm
Does the beta program application guarantee entrance to the beta program? And when you say 'previous card' do you mean the previous generation card (what would that be)?
post #18 of 433
2/21/04 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally posted by WanMan
Does the beta program application guarantee entrance to the beta program? And when you say 'previous card' do you mean the previous generation card (what would that be)?
I think you had to purchase the earlier version of the DVD software. From what I read the beta program is closed and the are getting close to shipping the new software. I'm a little worried because several times someone asked how the useability and interface compared to Theatertek and the question was conveniently never answered.
post #19 of 433
2/21/04 at 3:15pm
Oh well. Maybe the email santa will bless me. {hint, hint, wink, wink}
post #20 of 433
2/22/04 at 4:42am
Quote:
I'm a little worried because several times someone asked how the useability and interface compared to Theatertek and the question was conveniently never answered.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it was answered previously, but I'll answer it here (from an end user perspective, I am not affililated to Nvidia). The NVidia player should be roughly compared to WinDVD or PowerDVD in terms of user interface.

It is NOT a direct TT replacement. That said, it's strengths are in the quality of the Directshow audio and video decoders, and it's unique DCDI-like 3-2 pulldown module which does NOT depend on the DVD being properly flagged.

When combined with Zoom Player Pro, I feel that the combination stomps all over ANY other player in the market.

Just my $.02.

Vern
post #21 of 433
2/22/04 at 5:13am
Thanks Vern. Hopefully either Andrew will license the decoders or the new player will pass the Wife Useability Test.
post #22 of 433
2/22/04 at 11:31pm
Thread Starter 
Hi Guys.

We finally sat down, my girlfriend and me, and spend some time watching.
She put her series on, and was convinced right away: The backgrounds
and colors were WAY better. She noticed forests behind behind people,
the color of the leaves and horizons. She was very thrilled about this level
of video quality.

There really is something great about this card. I can't recommend it
enough. I popped in Resident Evil again, and I'm amazed at the detail
and lack of errors. It's the best image I've seen so far.

The testing ends now, I've made my choice.

Thanks,

Nicholas
post #23 of 433
2/23/04 at 12:06am
Nicholas did you use scoped settings or did you leave everything at default ?

Nima
post #24 of 433
2/23/04 at 4:56am
Nich: Do you have themodel numbers, name, etc. on the card?

Bill
post #25 of 433
2/23/04 at 5:38am
Thread Starter 
Bill, here's the link to the ASUS page.

http://uk.asus.com/products/vga/v9570td/overview.htm

Nicholas
post #26 of 433
2/23/04 at 5:42am
Nicholas, which DVD's was the wife/girlfriend watching to notice a difference? BTW, the lipsync issue seems to be one in which one would think a company like Asus would take advantage of and get together with M-Audio to create a paired solution without this problem. Of course, creative could do the same completely in-house but these people seem to suffer from pump-head.
post #27 of 433
2/23/04 at 6:38am
Thread Starter 
EVERYBODY PLEASE READ THIS:

We were watching a movie last night, and the audio would go away
every five minutes or so. I didn't know what to do, so I checked behind
the HTPC and it seems that I didn't re-connect the COAX properly the first
time...sooo, that MIGHT have something to do with the lipsync. I'll try 72hz
later again, just to be sure....:)

WanMan, my girlfriend 'noticed' it on every disk.

Nich
post #28 of 433
2/23/04 at 8:48am
Just to clarify - NVidia does NOT make retail graphics cards - they make the graphics chip which powers the card and sell them to OEM's who make cards which are sold at retail. In this way NVidia is analagous to Intel - they both make CPU's (graphics-oriented CPU's in the case of NVidia as opposed to general purpose chips from Intel).

MP's card is an NVidia reference board. These are not available to the general public - they are manufactured by NVidia in relatively large numbers but are strictly for other hardware or software developers (like me) who need to verify the video drivers work properly with the other hardware and / or software they need to interface with. (ATI, on the other hand, sells their reference designs under their own retail name directly to the consumer, as well as providing raw chips for other OEM's to build cards around).

Usually the manufacturers tend to stick pretty closely to the reference board design, but not always. Tom's Hardware is a good place to read detailed reviews and comparasons of the cards made by different manufacturers which are based on the same NVidia core. They generally do a good job pointing out the physical differences and attributes of each card. There's a lot of information there which probably won't make sense to most people, and I wouldn't pay any attention to the benchmark scores of the various cards since none of that really applies to using it for dvd playback within a HTPC. However - there's always the possibility that NO manufacturer will reproduce a board with the same quality of components as the reference cards from NVidia.
post #29 of 433
2/23/04 at 9:02am
Another thing about Ultra and non-Ultra cards from NVidia:

Unitl recently, the difference between these two types of card in HTPC parlance was zero. Ultra just signifies that the card's CPU is run at a higher clock speed which is benificial for gamers who actually care about the difference between 95 and 105 f.p.s. at 1600x1200 with all 3D effects enabled. The reason the Ultra cards look more "burly" is because the higher clock speed requires increased heat dissapation (more heat sinks) and often also requires higher-grade memory chips which can handle the higher address rate. What does any of that mean to watching a dvd? Zero.

Well, maybe not zero. Now that people are starting to use VMR9 instead of the old video layer some aspects of the 3D hardware are getting used on the cards when watching dvd. However I can almost guarentee that the difference in processing speed of an Ultra vs. non-Ultra 5700 is not going to matter for dvd playback - really we are using maybe 1/1000th of the processing power of these cards when we play back dvd on them in a HTPC. Using Direct3D VMR9 filters will increase the load but not enough, I'm sure, to matter. That said, there may be other more robust components on some Ultra cards which lend themselves to a higher signal to noise ratio on the card and thus better image performance. But that would depend on the specific design of the card itself (see above post) not just because it was an Ultra. In other words, a plain 5700 from manufacturer A might very possibly look better with dvd video than a 5700 Ultra from manufacturer B. Or they might also be identical.

I guess what I am saying is no one should assume that an Ultra is better for HTPC purposes until it's been proven in a back-to-back test, and then it is going to matter who made the card most likely. Also remember that these card's primary purpose is for playing real-time rendered 3D games, and 99.9% of the specifications and marketing hype about them is oriented toward that, NOT for watching dvd's on your projector.
post #30 of 433
2/23/04 at 5:04pm
cpurvis,

agreed, but what happens when you fire up the WMV Coral Reef Adventure in 1024P? Does the ultra have an advantage now?

I don't have the answer to this, but I can tell you that my 5950 Ultra plays CRA in 1024P to perfection. Not a stutter, not a glitch.

3.2G P4 processor, by the way.

Vern

Vern
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