or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Video Components › Video Processors › 3 new scalers from Lumagen!!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

3 new scalers from Lumagen!! - Page 3  

post #61 of 1598
Thread Starter 
I think HDCP is nothing more than a case test for HD-DVD. I think they're just checking if anyone will dare break it and see if it sticks.

The scheme in itself makes no sense for DVDs. This is only relevant for source material coming from HD STBs, HD-DVD and DVHS.
post #62 of 1598
Quote:
The scheme in itself makes no sense for DVDs. This is only relevant for source material coming from HD STBs, HD-DVD and DVHS.
It's an issue for any material which is obtained via a DVI/HDCP encoded source; whether it makes sense or not is irrelevant. If the user doesn't want to go the SDI route from their DVD player, then DVI/HDCP may be the only option for them. So, it DVI/HDCP is relevant.
post #63 of 1598
Thread Starter 
The relevancy is reduce due to the fact that people can easily DeCSS a disk and produce a digital copy of a DVD, more quickly than real time.

As HDCP is primarily focused on copy protection, it is really irrelevant (mostly annoying) for DVD and other SDTV sources.

I can see the point with HDTV. The point being that the sources are going to try and avoid going through a PC and sticking to a higher standard of copy protection. That will likely reduce the "casual copying" affect (someone making a copy of a title to send to a friend or share through P2P).
post #64 of 1598
Quote:
The relevancy is reduce due to the fact that people can easily DeCSS a disk and produce a digital copy of a DVD, more quickly than real time.
That's still irrelevant, as we're talking about hooking up a DVD player to a scaler here. That was AK47's question and concern.

Again, it doesn't make any difference what else is out there, or whether DVI/HDCP makes sense. DVI/HDCP is here - it's a reality. It's especially a reality if you use a Denon 5900 or a DVI/HDCP enabled STB such to connect to one of Lumagen's new scalers. In that case, if the 5900 or STB enables HDCP on the DVI link, there will be consequences on the DVI port of the Lumagen (i.e. no analog out).

I see what you mean (that HDCP is aimed elsewhere, not at DVDs), but in reality if ANY source has DVI/HDCP, there are consequences. That fact that DVI/HDCP is a poor idea is, in essence, simply food for though at this point.
post #65 of 1598
AK:
- Sorry, but the HDCP license forbids any licensee from outputing analog video if we receive an HDCP encrypted source. So the analog output is disabled in this case. Yes, I too hate this since I own a Electrohome 9500LC.

- We use the TI THS8135, as with our current generation. We oversample the output to improve quality.

- ED just mean "Enhanced Definition" and is really just shorthand for 480p/576p. This shows up mostly on TVs to define their resolution. You are correct about SD as 480i/576i and HD as 720p and 1080i. In addition, many use HD for any resolution at or above 720p.

- We are specified to have only one active output at a time. However, you can override this behavior and turn both on at the same time. In this case only one can be calibrated, the analog output must to be set as RGB, and both are at the same resolution.

- Simply put, SDI is better than DVI for SD DVD. SDI is 4:2:2 YCbCr, which is exactly what comes out of the MPEG 2 decoder. DVI is 4:4:4 RGB, and leaves lots of room for the DVD vendors to screw it up and in fact adds two color space conversions to our video path, which can only hurt. However, we plan to support the 480i 4:2:2 YCbCr mode of HDMI (you would need a HDMI to DVI cable). This will be as good as SDI for quality, but with the huge issue for us CRT projector owners of DVI/HDMI DVD outptus will be encrypted and we won't be able to see anything.

- We don't have much in the way of photos yet, but check out our website. There are some front panel pictures.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
post #66 of 1598
Quote:
Originally posted by jackox
Any European distributors (France for eg.) planned ?
We are working to develop our distribution network in Europe, and have distributors in several countries.

At this time for France, you can buy from Gordon in the UK (convergentav@btinternet.com) or Uwe in Germany (spatz@spatz-tech.de), or directly from us (sales@lumagen.com) if you prefer.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
post #67 of 1598
Just so I am perfectly clear, an SDI or a component output into the Lumagen will be processed in all cases? The only time HDCP comes into play is if the output is DVI or HDMI?
post #68 of 1598
Doug: Correct
post #69 of 1598
Quote:
Originally posted by jrp
At this time for France, you can buy from Gordon in the UK (convergentav@btinternet.com) or Uwe in Germany (spatz@spatz-tech.de), or directly from us (sales@lumagen.com) if you prefer.
Jim,

Are your products CE compliant?

French customs have the detestable habit to send back any electronic gear without the CE label.
post #70 of 1598
There is a lot of HDCP comments. Let me try roll these into a single reply.

Preface:
- I hate digital encryption. It screws all of us CRT and non HDCP display owners. We are totally SOL.
- I fully agree with content providers right to protect their work in any way they see fit.
- You can't stop the pirates from making illegal copies no matter how good the encryption is. You only make them work harder at it. They're scum, but they're smart scum.
- HDCP only makes sense if one takes the long term view.

The content providers know they have a huge problem now and for the forseeable future. No one in their right mind is going to copy a DVD in any uncompressed form when they can just use a computer and get a perfect copy. So, for SD material HDCP is useless, and an extremely irritating huge and costly effort for us. I can't imagine it stoping even a single illegal copy of an SD DVD, ever.

However, think 20 years from now, and it has a chance of reducing piracy. It will not eliminate it of course. VCRs, laser-disc and SD DVDs will all be obsolete, and I will have long ago dumped my favored CRT projector. All new movies, etc. will be released only in HD format with whatever encyption is being used by then. The electronics involved will be highly integrated and it will be difficult to find a way to pirate the material.

So, I can see what the industry is trying to accomplish, but only in this long term picture. It won't stop pirating, but it will help, and I understand why they need to try. So as much as I HATE encryption, I will continue on with my life knowing its something I can't do anything about, except to work within the framework it imposes. Oops - got a llittle philosophical there.

Just my opinion of course.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
post #71 of 1598
Quote:
Originally posted by jaz50y
Just so I am perfectly clear, an SDI or a component output into the Lumagen will be processed in all cases? The only time HDCP comes into play is if the output is DVI or HDMI?
SDI is a non-encrypted standard and so we will process it and output it in either analog or digital as selected by the user.

All analog inputs are processed and can be output either as analog or digital.

In both these case, we will not engage any HDCP encryption on the output.

As mentioned HDCP encrypted input will engage our HDCP encryption on our output and disable the analog output.

Several people have asked if we will have "secret codes" to disable HDCP on the output. Sorry, but the answer is NO. Can't do it.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
post #72 of 1598
Hmm...does that mean I can buy somebody's used VisionPro for $300? If you want to upgrade, give me a PM!
post #73 of 1598
Quote:
Originally posted by robena
Jim,

Are your products CE compliant?

French customs have the detestable habit to send back any electronic gear without the CE label.
Our current products are CE compliant. Underwriters Labs did the testing for us on these. The products are marked appropriately with the "CE" Mark.

Haven't tested the second generation products, but they too will be CE compliant.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
post #74 of 1598
Quote:
Originally posted by vince2
Hmm...does that mean I can buy somebody's used VisionPro for $300? If you want to upgrade, give me a PM!
Well... the $300 tradein on a Pro to the VisionDVI is really a message that we don't expect or want this to happen.

However, Vision and VisionPro owners, when you upgrade, by all means feel free to sell your current units on the used market. You should even be able to get more than our trade-in allowance. We are trying this tradein policy as a courtesy. It's not a money making proposition for us.

We will even honor the one-year warranty from date of original sale. Just give a bill of sale to the new owner with your information on it and a copy of your original sales receipt.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
post #75 of 1598
I was joking Jim. Actually, I will be buying a HDP unit as soon as they are available. Generous of you to extend your warranty though.
post #76 of 1598
Quote:
Originally posted by vince2
I was joking Jim. Actually, I will be buying a HDP unit as soon as they are available. Generous of you to extend your warranty though.
I figured as much, but your comment did bring up a good point about selling verses trade in.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
post #77 of 1598
Quote:
Several people have asked if we will have "secret codes" to disable HDCP on the output. Sorry, but the answer is NO. Can't do it.
To those of you that have asked: this is nothing like region codes or Macrovision. The lawyers who drew up the HDCP license agreement knew what they were doing. Rest assured that if Lumagen did anything to make it easy for people to hack their boxes to defeat HDCP, they would be out of business (and flat broke) faster than your projector can sync.

I don't mean this as a threat---indeed, I have no connection to HDCP. I've just read their public legal documents, and I think that people need to be realistic and realize that HDCP is the real deal. Yes, HDCP is theoretically hackable, of course. But no scaler manufacturer who is already paying $15K a year in license fees will be willing to risk the millions of dollars in penalties they will be liable for if they help you.

For CRT owners, your best best is to pursue something like what was discussed in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=317167
post #78 of 1598
Quote:
Originally posted by jrp
We are working to develop our distribution network in Europe, and have distributors in several countries.

At this time for France, you can buy from Gordon in the UK (convergentav@btinternet.com) or Uwe in Germany (spatz@spatz-tech.de), or directly from us (sales@lumagen.com) if you prefer.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
Jim, maybe you forgot the italian distributor :p

Gianluca Vignini
post #79 of 1598
Thks, Jim, for the very in-depth reply.

I think I'll go for SDI then. I use Barco Cine 7, and it won't likely survive another 10 years.

I think there is a time-consming/inconvenient run-around:-

- copy a DVD on PC; rip off macrovision and burn it onto 1-2 DVD-Rs; playback on a HDCP-DVI DVDP and the output will supposedly be unencrypted, so processing by Lumagen should be possible

The HDCP stupidity/licence couldn't stop any person from using their brain.

:)
post #80 of 1598
More power to you, AK47. Now what happens when HD-DVD is released? :( Let's hope HD-DVD players have component outputs.
post #81 of 1598
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Grant
HDMI cable equalization is a cooperative affair, I believe. Unless you have HDMI at both ends of the connection, you don't get the cable length benefit.
Michael:
Sorry for the delay in responding. I was surprized by you comment, since I did not think pre-qualization would work well for DVI/HDMI, and I wanted to check into it so I could give an informed response.

It would take some fairly sophisticated design to warp the 1.65 GHz data-rate signal (max transition rate is of course half this) signals differentially to compensate for the lossy nature of the interconnect. I imagine it could be done of course, but don't imagine it is the most cost effective way to go.

After talking with Silicon Image - arguably the leader for HDMI - they confirm there is no cable pre-EQ in their transmitters, but that their HDMI receivers do have cable-equalization. So, at the least, HDMI inputs using Silicon Image chips will work with longer cables than DVI inputs.

So, my supposition about our DVI output driving an HDMI input getting the advantage of the better HDMI receiver and the longer cable length it supports appears to be correct.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
post #82 of 1598
Quote:
Originally posted by vignini
Jim, maybe you forgot the italian distributor :p

Gianluca Vignini
Sorry Gianluca. No slight intended.

At this time Plasmapan in Italy can also sell into France.

For that matter, so can Refocus AB in Sweden.

If we get a French distributor, this may change.

Jim Peterson
post #83 of 1598
Quote:
Originally posted by AK47
Thks, Jim, for the very in-depth reply.

I think there is a time-consming/inconvenient run-around:-

- copy a DVD on PC; rip off macrovision and burn it onto 1-2 DVD-Rs; playback on a HDCP-DVI DVDP and the output will supposedly be unencrypted, so processing by Lumagen should be possible

:)
Unfortunately, I think most players will just leave HDCP on all the time. The one I checked does.

I think they figure why turn it off. It would be more work for them to turn it on and off and they forsee only being connected to an HDCP DVI input anyway.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
post #84 of 1598
Thanks for checking, Jim, I stand corrected---happily, I might add! It's good to know that the cable length benefit depends comes at the receiver end.
post #85 of 1598
Does anyone know if 4:2:2 YCbCr support over HDMI a requirement for all HDMI dvd players? Reading the specs at HDMI.org suggests this is the case if a DVD player has a component output. If so, I plan to get the Pioneer 59-Avi to use with the Lumagen, without the need for getting it SDI modded.
post #86 of 1598
So, even 480i output from HDMI is also HDCP-protected?

And home-brew DVD-/+Rs made from DV will also be HDCP-protected on playback?

Anyway, that's just too complicated. Might as well use play DVD on a PC and output on the DVI out of display card. The current crop of VGA cards are not "HDCP-protected" to my knowledge. The HDP will scale unprotected DVI, right?

:)
post #87 of 1598
AK47, yes the HDP will scale unprotected (as well as HDCP protected) DVI inputs.

Patrick
post #88 of 1598
Patrick,

In this case, I suppose the analog RGB/component output will not be disabled, right?

:)
post #89 of 1598
So, for those looking for CRT applications the list price will be $1499+$100, right?
post #90 of 1598
Wan Man. With no trade in and providing you do not want SDI in or BNC connectors in.

Jim. Is it correct to say you are using the same deinterlacing chip used in the Vision Pro but that you have improved its implementation? Is it correct to say this same chip is used to deinterlace 1080i? Sorry if this question has been answered before but the thread is long and there is a lot of info to digest. Thank you for the help.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Video Processors
This thread is locked  
AVS › AVS Forum › Video Components › Video Processors › 3 new scalers from Lumagen!!