Michael Green Designs - Tunevilla!!!  

Hi Steve,

Actually, a lot of the products at Michael's site are now taking a back seat to where MGD has positioned itself in the audio industry. The business has swung so heavily toward the commercial side of the business (performance centers, recording studios, music schools, concert halls and design of tunable professional amplfiers in the music industry) that home audiophile and theater customers will only probably be limited to 10 new customers per year that Michael will actively and personally get involved with. All of his racks will be enhanced with new technology and the acoustical products will be updated with "Harmonic Ring" technology (which will also be included in his racks).

As I mentioned to you, there is also a new tunable portable wall (which was designed for the recording studio industry), and also has limited availability to home users, called the SAM (Selective Audionic Membrane). It is solid cherry hardwood and is tunable just like a PZC. Very expensive though -- the 3' x 4' version sells for $1900 (there is a smaller, less expensive version. Unfortunately real wood does not come cheap these days. It's a multi- purpose wall -- in the music industry, a musical instrument creates it's "character" and harmonics, by interacting with room boundaries -- the SAMs will allow the musician or vocalists to obtain the precise sound they desire.

In one case an audiophile who has corresponded with me by email for about a year now and who could not hear a soundstage more than 3 feet high is having SAMs specifically designed to allow him to hear a (normal) soundstage 7 feet high with a wall to wall (and beyond) width which he could not hear before due to (believe it or not) the shape of his ears. This was discovered by Michael during the audiophile's visit to his facility and, with his Tunable Room, was able to adjust the acoustics so that the audiophile could hear a proper soundstage for the first time in his life. So, after that, custom SAMs (and PZCs) were constructed for the audiophile's home use so he could enjoy a proper soundstage in his home. I won't mention the audiophile's name, but I've spoke to him over the phone through his calling me to inform me of his visit and this is how I know the story. The PZCs are more popular today than ever, but are currently being improved upon even more. So, as you can see, this tunable acoustical technology can do a lot more than just handle reflections and acoustical burn where needed.

The Pressure Zone Controller Review At Audio Asylum can be accessed by clicking on the previous hyperlink. The operation of the PZC remains the new same, but the production and control of the harmonics of sounds/music will be increased by as much as 30 to 40% due to Harmonic Rings incorporated into the tuning mechanism, instead of the plastic which is now used.

So, a lot is happening and on the horizon for the world of acoustics and audio system tuning. I should be receiving my SAM within the next week or so and I will let you know of its applicability to the home theater and audio only environments.

Best wishes,

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Jim Bookhard

[This message has been edited by JimBookhard (edited July 19, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by JimBookhard (edited July 19, 2000).]

This stuff works folks. I just did my whole room. Major improvement. The concept is 180 out from the generally accepted practice of dampening. But there is no denying the results.

MGD says remove all dampening devices from your room including the infamous panel at the point of first reflection. In my room I removed all, sound panels, draps, anything that would absorb. Except the couch which will be gone shortly. I placed the Pressure Zone Controllers (PZC) in the locations recommended by MGD. I also positioned the speakers farther out from the wall as recommended and put my components on a MGD rack.

The results? More SS. More depth. More detail. More. More. More. The speakers seem to be standing there doing nothing because the sound certainly does not appear to be coming from them.

If your looking to upgrade, consider upgrading your room. And put the MGD approach at the top of your list.

[This message has been edited by TWD (edited July 20, 2000).]

Steve, for those who have not seen the PZCs mounted in a normal room, here is a picture of one of my rooms. These devices are easily installed with no special tools required and can be taken down whenever desired.
http://home.earthlink.net/~jbbookhar...KRoomPZCs2.JPG

Best wishes,



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Jim Bookhard

Hi Steve,

Prior to owning PZCs, I have owned ASC Traps, RoomLenses, the pillow type "RoomTune" products including their floor standing Deluxe Tunes and Bass Tunes. My goal with speaker placement has always been to have a stable, wide, deep soundstage with a wide "sweet spot" where more than just one or two people would have total enjoyment of the audio or video experience. There are many speakers around that can "disappear" in a room, but there are very few rooms that will really do these speakers their due justice. I found that all of the alternative products I tried did make some difference, but none totally allowed the boundaries of the room to virtually disappear. For many years, I experimented with using three speakers across the front, but the surround "software" and circuitry available did not do justice to the surround experience because there was too much "blend" of the sound to the center channel. Pans were not as smooth as they are in real life, nor as "realistic", even when using three identical speakers across the front.

At one time, I had 2 RoomLenses, 4 Deluxe Tune 4' Panels, 1 Bass Trap and 4 Corner Tune products in my home theater (along with 2 subwoofers). After the PZCs were announced and I had gained experience with them in my audio system, I replaced all of the previous products in my home theater with just 4 small Mini Corner PZCs. The home theater room always had boom on explosions and must have driven my neighbors crazy.

I then replaced all my speakers in the theater with tunable speakers and 1 tunable sub. When I installed the small PZCs (11"H x 6 1/2"W x 4 1/4"D), the walls, floor and ceiling of the theater "disappeared" sonically. At that point, I moved the speakers very wide apart (to the point where most people would think there would be no center fill at all) and did away with the center channel speaker. With only very slight toe-in, I found that not only was there more than sufficient center fill, but the soundstage in the theater was spread completely across the front of the room with sounds produced with the right "size" as in real life. Dynamics improved as well as pacing of music. I could control the acoustics so well that on a "live" DVD concert, I could make the acoustic of the room sound exactly like that of a live performance with all the ambience of the original theater. The speakers completely vanished. Bass quality and bass quantity also improved with the "better" subwoofer in the room and it doesn't seem to matter very much where I place it.

Once I was performing some work on the floor about 4 feet directly in front of the right front speaker in the theater. I had a movie playing at the time and what I found was that the center image was still anchored at the middle of the screen (32" direct view) and I could not hear the speaker that was directly in front of me unless I put my ear about 12" from the speaker. That proved to me that a center channel is definitely not needed if you have correct speaker placement and GOOD speakers. At any position on the rear wall of the theater, the center image is anchored properly and the soundstage does not move as you walk from one side of the rear of the room to another. Pans are better and more natural sounding since there are 4 identical speakers in the theater. I also found that, with good acoustical treatments, placement of a subwoofer becomes a lot less critical and that it is possible to produce sound pressure levels and dynamics that approach "real" if 1) you have a good subwoofer that sounds good on music and 2)the subwoofer is fed with good electronics. I say "good on music" because I have found that if a subwoofer is not capable of producing good sound on music, it will never perform optimally on home theater tracks. In other words, "roar and thunder" do not make for realism -- with a non musical sub, what you get are unrealistic sounding explosions and unrealistic sounding bass effects, etc. although you may have a lot of bass "volume". But, volume does not always equate to "real".

So, along with good acoustics, the theater experience will suffer if the speakers are not up to the level of the "room" and electronics. There is a good general rule to follow when it comes to acoustics (and speaker placement) -- if voices sound "natural" in the room, all other reproduced music and effects will sound good in that room. When you dampen a room, just make sure that you do not overdampen it to where voices sound "dead" or muffled because if voices do not sound natural, neither will any recorded material.

So, I find that speaker placement is important, but without all the other ingredients being present the results will only come up as mediocre.

Steve, I think you are one of the true fortunate beings on the planet to be able to plan and build a dedicated theater. I saw that you said you went directly with PZCs without trying conventional treatments. Well, take it from someone who has tried just about all the conventional treatments available (I did not list all the things I've tried and experimented with), be thankful that you did not have to go through the trial and error of trying to get things "just right" and never quite succeeding. I think Tom's description of what he hears in his room says it all because that is exactly what is heard in my 2 audio systems and my separate home theater -- the same experience of sound coming from everywhere but the speakers. And, the sound is "coherent", focused and natural. But, again, it takes GOOD speakers all around in your theater along with placement, good electronics and good acoustics.

Best wishes, http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/cool.gif

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Jim Bookhard

I also got the MGD Just-a-Rack Delux. I am using the MTD points as well. This set-up replaces a Billy Baggs A/V rack with Symposium Platforms.

The MGD rack is tunable. I can change the sound/ptich of my system by adjusting the nuts on the rack. With the MGD set-up everything sounds cleaner. I was listening to Diana Krall last night and noticed that the edge on her voice that I previously though was on the recording is gone!

Amazing Stuff.

Fellas:

Just talked with MGD, a guy named Rustin, and sent pictures of our room, equipment list etc and am going to see what they say.

Any suggestions?

BTW, is this treatment applicable to HT as well as two channel music?

Chuck

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Chuck Traywick
Kitty Hawk, NC

Steve:

Based on the spec you sent me am I getting it right that you never used so called convential treatments in your room?

Are conventional threatments like wall applications?

Thanks

Chuck

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Chuck Traywick
Kitty Hawk, NC

Steve:

We have been told that our room is "difficult" , so I am anxious to see what they come back with.

Anyone use the built in stuff? As I understand it you can get the PZC to insert in your walls etc.

Chuck

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Chuck Traywick
Kitty Hawk, NC

Chuck,

My room is difficult too. One side of my room contours to the slope of my roof. So I have different ceiling heights. The room faces the front of my house and there is a large picture window in a cove so the room has many angles. The front door opens into the room. There is a hall-way about mid- room exiting to the right and a hall-way on the front right that opens to the rear of the house.

Difficult rooms are a challenge but I can tell you from experience these products work regardless of the room configuration. The improvement wrought just depends on how far you are willing to go.

Tom:


What did you end up doing?

They told me last night that a "typical" installation was four of the corner packs (don't know if that is the right term), six to eight of the wall panels and four of the mini echo devices.

More problems, they said, equals more stuff.

Did your wife object to multiple objects on the wall?

I looked at Steve's pictures but since his room is dark and the tunes are dark it was hard to get a feel for their appearance.

I gather you have removed the heavy drapes etc and just have the stuff in your room that you want there plus the PZC's?

I just purchased Salamander Designs cabinets. they are nice enough looking so we can use them elsewhere.

Are you doing both HT and music?

Thanks

Chuck



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Chuck Traywick
Kitty Hawk, NC

Chuck,

See my responses below.

"What did you end up doing?"

Response: I ended up with four mini corner controllers that mount in the corners where the walls meet the ceiling, four vertical mini-echo controllers which mount mid-way up the wall in the corners, four horizontal mini-controllers that mount horizontally on the front, back, and side walls high up on the wall where the ceiling meets the wall, and four 36" wall controllers. See Jim Bookard's layout above for an idea of how they look.

"They told me last night that a "typical" installation was four of the corner packs (don't know if that is the right term), six to eight of the wall panels and four of the mini echo devices."

"More problems, they said, equals more stuff."

Response: Sounds about right. It really depends on the room. MGD told me you can over treat the room as well.

"Did your wife object to multiple objects on the wall?"

Response: No wife. Not an issue.

"I gather you have removed the heavy drapes etc and just have the stuff in your room that you want there plus the PZC's?"

Response: I tried to remove anything that could absorb sound.

"I just purchased Salamander Designs cabinets. they are nice enough looking so we can use them elsewhere."

Response:
I don't think the racks will be a problem. I assume they are made out of wood?

Are you doing both HT and music?

Response: Just music. Sold all my HT stuff. I watch movies in my back room with just a DVD, Satellite, and a 35" SONY.

Hi Chuck,

I just wanted to clarify what "In-Wall Tuners" are. They are acutally the tuning mechanism inside of a PZC, but the with a width that would allow it to be placed between two adjacent wall studs (i.e., 16 on center -- anyone with construction experience, please correct me if this not the standard distance between wall studs). They are not actually the PZCs themselves.

The entire wall or ceiling section reacts like a PZC when these devices are installed. These devices can be retrofit into an existing sheetrock wall room with relative ease. Retrofitting these devices vs. installing them in a newly constructed room is slightly different because when constructing a room, MGD will also instruct you how to prepare the studs and joists with "treatment", the correct acoustical burn materials to be used between the studs prior to installation of the In-Wall Tuners and wall construction materials and preparation.

There are many people who do not want "objects" in the room (acoustical devices), so In-Wall Tuners are a perfect solution if aesthetics are what you desire most. There are other ways to achieve a good home theater experience without placing "objects" all around the room -- a minium of 4 In-Wall Tuners (1 per wall in a 4 wall room) and possibly building an acoustical soffit around the perimeter of the ceiling in which would be placed acoustical material (to control ceiling energy) and could also incorporate "mood" lights, so anyone entering the room would not even know the soffit was an acoustical device. Depending on the size of the room, an additional 4 for the ceiling would also probably be recommended.

The only thing you see when In-Wall Tuners are installed is a shiny brass tuning bolt covered by a shiny brass wall plate (the size of an electrical outlet plate). The plates on the wall can be "covered" with pictures if desired. So, it really depends on how far you want to go with your room, utilization of the room (i.e., multi purpose or dedicated theater) and what is important to you.

I use these devices for both my audio systems and home theater. Personally, I don't like to state "standard" room treatment configurations because every room is different and the size and shape (and characteristics -- i.e., window surfaces) of the room will dictate the configuration for your room. That's been my experience and MHO.

Best wishes,

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Jim Bookhard

Jim:

Thanks. When I hear back from MGD I will explore the in wall stuff. Not sure what might work best in our situation. Since we are thinking about making some changes this would be the time to do it.

It looks to me like you could place the wall units "in wall" and like you say ceiling stuff in a ceiling trey or some other type of ceiling decoration.

My wife rarely demands that I do things for appearance sake, thus my desire to accomodate what I know she would prefer.

Glad you made the comment about wall treatment as well.



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Chuck Traywick
Kitty Hawk, NC

Hi Chuck,

So as not to confuse the discussion, the PZCs and In-Wall Tuners are not exclusive of each other in their usage. As a matter of fact, the best of all worlds would be a combination of the two because of how acoustical energy interacts with room surfaces. Energy migrates to intersecting boundaries of room surfaces and builds up there (corners, wall/ceiling intersections, etc.). These areas of a room are extremely important when considering acoustical treatments and they must have adequate treatments for best sound in a room. When you really get down to it, even the paint "texture" in a room will have an effect on the sound of a room. MGD will be able to give you guidance in this area also, if you desire it. As a matter of fact, Michael will undoubtedly personally look at the layout of your room to determine the configuration. I know he's been on the road lately, so if there's any delay, it's only because they are awaiting his return and these products will bring you closer to the experience of "real" than anything conventional that I have personally tried. Don't be shy -- feel free to ask to talk directly with Michael himself.

Best wishes,

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Jim Bookhard

[This message has been edited by JimBookhard (edited July 25, 2000).]

Jim:

Thanks, I think I will. Why not go to the source?

I'm excited about this because before now it appeared that our only option was another room.

I also like the idea, that they seemed receptive to, of trying a little bit out as we go to prove the idea.

Thanks again.

Chuck

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Chuck Traywick
Kitty Hawk, NC

Yes, the Salamander designs are wood, cherry on the front and sides, mdf and partical borad for the shelves, plus associated metal parts.

Steve is using these for both HT and music and he likes them for both I think.

It looks like, from the pictures, that Steve's are all surface mounted and not in the walls.

Sounds like you got burned out on HT http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif, I can commiserate.

I did look at Jim Brookhards pictures and they look reasonable to me. I mean if your going to have lots of equipment in the room . . .



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Chuck Traywick
Kitty Hawk, NC

Steve:

I am running into zoning issues with the proposed new room. Our little town has had much to much growth and the response has been to severly restrict things. Thus you can now only have 30% of your property developed in our sub division and that includes everything, decks, pools, out buildings etc.

We just got the survey back and we are over, plus discovered the pool is partially in one of the set back areas. I now am fearful of asking for anything.

The building inspector already told me that if I submitted anything he would have no choice but to reject it cause the lot coverage exceed the spec.

So we may have to work with what we have.

I don't mind taking drywall off to put stuff in the walls.

I'd like to try this on a small scale first and see how it performs.

If it works then we would put the stuff in walls and celings that would be most obvious. The corner treatments, which would seem to be more difficult to embed in the wall, we could surface mount.

Ah, the joys of getting hooked into the "better sound " idea http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif




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Chuck Traywick
Kitty Hawk, NC

Hello,

I'm curious, can these treatments be used to vary the acoustical qualities of a room to the point that the room could be used as both a music and HT room? This may be asking too much of the product. My understanding is that the acoustics in true dedicated HT vs. a true dedicated music listening room are very different, and reading these posts made me wonder if the MGD treatments might almost make the room "tuneable" so that you could almost have 2 roooms in one, acoustically speaking.

Thanks for any feedback,

Brian

Hi Brian,

The answer to your first question, in a word, is "yes". But, the acoustics in a home theater are not different from those of an audio only environment because in both cases you are reproducing sound which consists of fundamental frequencies and associated harmonics (as well as decay times). The one thing you may find with a home theater is that unless you have a subwoofer which has a switch for "HT" vs. "audio", you may want to turn the subwoofer off on audio because you will find that the HT setting on your sub may have the bass "overpowering" the room. This phenomena has nothing to do with the acoustics of the room, but with the way movie tracks are recorded versus the way audio CD (or LP) tracks are recorded, etc.

If the above were not true, no one would be using conventional acoustical treatments for both HT and audio use and there are many users of conventional treatments who use their systems for both. With tunable acoustics though, it does allow more flexibility to tailor the sound. If you were really a tweaker, you could actually adjust the acoustics for every recording (or movie and its effects).

Also, to clarify Steve's comments. The PZCs do not actually dampen sound when they are "tightened" -- there is some acoustical burn due to the material in the frame though. What the PZCs do when the tuning mechanism is "tightened" is to reduce the amount of harmonics (as well as raise the resonant frequency of the sound) created by the build-up of acoustical energy in the room both of which will also shorten the decay time. Loosening the bolts will reverse the effect. I'm sure Steve's terms were chosen for lack of a better choice of words and not due to his not understanding what these devices do because he does have extensive experience with them. But, explaining these devices is a different matter and hopefully, there will be no confusion on the parts of others who are not familiar with these devices. So, Steve, don't feel I thought you needed "correcting" you on this -- just trying to clarify what happens when you turn those tuning bolts and I know its easy to hear, but hard to find the right words to explain.

One thing these devices will tell you about acoustics is that the room (and its interaction with your speakers) does more to shape the acoustic signature of your room than the speakers all alone. If room surface areas "flex" a lot, the room will create more harmonics (this may sound good or it may make bass sound "boomy"), so the ability to control the "flex" of the PZCs (the same principles apply to the walls of your room) will allow you to significantly dial in your room to a natural sound. But, the room must be configured adequately and the PZCs adjusted correctly. Depending on where a particular PZC is located, its adjustments will render different effects (i.e., PZCs on a side wall with the tuning bolts in a "tighter" position will render a wider soundstage while PZCs on the front wall or rear wall with the tuning bolts in a "tighter" position will yield the illusion of a "longer" room, etc.). It does not take any prior skill to conclude as to what tuning settings are best for your room.

Best wishes http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/cool.gif,

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Jim Bookhard

Chuck and Steve,

Last October, I visited MGD for a tour of their facilities. While there, I had the opportunity to listen in and to tune their Tunable Listening Room. This room has built in In-wall Tuners (floors, walls and ceiling) and the room is also fully treated with PZCs also.

The room is as applicable to home theater as it is to audio only listening. When I returned, I wrote a review of this room over at Audio Asylum which can be read by clicking here.

Short of being there, this review tries to express what I experienced listening in this room. So, I hope it will give you a glimpse of what is the potential of a room like this.

Best wishes http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/cool.gif,

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Jim Bookhard

Jim:

An excellent review. Can't wait to see what they come up with.



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Chuck Traywick
Kitty Hawk, NC