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The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 469

post #14041 of 16013
> place ferrite sleeves on the coax (the F connector needs to be off
> the end of the coax before the sleeves will fit)

There are split sleeves that do not require the F connector
to be off.

For example:

1/4"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-450
3/8"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-452
1/2"
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=110-454

Ideally you want a snug fit without crushing the coax.
The 3/8" size is the best fit for most coax used for antennas.
The thicker RG11 might need the 1/2"?

> The fix is to place ferrite sleeves, acting as a choke,
> on the coax as close to the antenna feedpoint as possible

So we should put ferrite at the antenna end as well as the
tuner end? For antennas with a seperate 300-to-75 balun
should we put ferrite around the 300 Ohm wires (closer to
antenna feedpoint) or only around the coax just after the balun?

I got rid of FM interference from a then-analog RF10
with split ferrite similar to the 3/8" unit listed above
just before the tuner. The ferrite is inexpensive, so
if adding some at the antenna end will help at all
I'll do that as well.
post #14042 of 16013
Hi,

I'm East Side Madison, WI.

I'm looking to add an outdoor antenna and am wondering if it's possible to pick up any Milwaukee stations?

Madison is 863' in elevation.

Milwaukee is at 634' in elevation and approx. 75 miles away. Madison is much higher and so I'd think it would be fairly easy to get those stations for there would be little line of sight blockage. I would think. From where the antenna would be installed, i have a straight shot to all of Milwaukee

I've read that several people in Madison can pick up Janesville, WI stations. Janesville is at 858 elevation 41 miles away. We are only a few feet higher than Janesville. From where the antenna would go, the corner of my house would partially block my view, even though it would be mounted outside.

I've read too, that several in Madison can also pick up Rockford, IL stations. Rockford is at 740' elevation and is 72 miles away. Same for Rockford... the antenna when pointed in that direction would be partially obstructed by my outside wall.

When I compare these 2 cities though to Milwaukee, it's comparable in distance but we are much higher up in elevation.

My questions are... can anyone recommend an outdoor antenna, amplifier, pre-amplifier, rotor, etc? A complete package?

I would be mounting this off to the SIDE of the house (not the roof) about 15' (feet) off the ground.

I found 2 possibilities from Denny's, Denny's EZ-HD antenna and his Double Decker, but I'm unable to find any reviews on his products. Both of these antenna's are, I believe, designed and built by his shop and not name brands. I know they have a great return policy but, it costs $$ to return, $$ I'd rather put into a good antenna.

I have done considerable reading and to be quite frank... I'm totally confused. There are so many different makes, models, rotor types, amplifier and preamplifier types, etc... that I just don't know what to do. Plus, seems there are a lot of opinions on both sides with most of these. I'm not finding any landslide opinions about what to go with or stay away from.

Can anyone please advise and provide recommendations which includes the entire package... from the mounting hardware (not roof mounted, probably a bracket across the eves or a J Mount or just a 10' pole straight up) to the antenna make/model as well as additional hardware (amp's/pre-amp's)?

I also don't know what the difference is between a PRE-Amplifier and a regular Amplifier. I found an explanation in another post, but found it confusing. Is there a time i would ever need both?

What I currently have is this I have 4 RG59 cables from and older sat. dish running to the location where the Antenna will go. All 4 runs terminate in one spot in the basement. In that same spot, I have 3 RG6 Quad Shield cables running to every room in the house (2 for sat. connections and one for either CATV or a future OTA antenna).

The run from where the antenna is, to the spot in the basement is approximately 40 feet. Maybe 50, but I think it's closer to 40. From that same spot, the LONGEST run in the house to the furthest room is 25 feet.

Immediately, I would be connecting the OTA antenna to 3 televisions. I will likely add a 4th TV in a few years when my son gets older.

Please advise on a full package/recommendations and/or whether you think this is even possible.

Here is my TVFOOL report that I've seen others post. This accounts, though, for just my local stuff and not stations 40 - 70 miles away: [url]http: // www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d14f35b306ba9d4

Please advise if I have the right forum for this posting and then SPECIFIC recommendations for there are so many options, it literally comes down to... what do you think will work to pull in these distant channels... or is there nothing, stick with my immediate locals and be done with it?

Thanks!

T
post #14043 of 16013
You should be able to easily get the channels in green on your TVFool report with one of these. Mount on a small J-mount or any other mast. No amp needed unless you're connecting to several TVs and experience low signal. Then, a multiport distribution amp may be needed.

Per your TVFool report, it would be a waste of time, money, etc. to get any more antenna. You should reasonably expect to only get the channels shown in green at the top of your list. Virtually all shown in pink/red below those are too weak at your location.
post #14044 of 16013
Quote:


I'm East Side Madison, WI.

I'm looking to add an outdoor antenna and am wondering if it's possible to pick up any Milwaukee stations?

Not on a consistant basis, per your TVFool report. Those Milwaukee stations have negative NM in the teens and listed as Tropo. There just isnt enough signal in the air to get them consistantly, no matter the antenna.

Quote:


I also don’t know what the difference is between a PRE-Amplifier and a regular Amplifier. I found an explanation in another post, but found it confusing. Is there a time i would ever need both?

A preamplifier is an amplifier that is mounted up near the antenna. The power supply for it is in the house, and the preamp gets power thru the coax. The the preamp is preferred because less noise is amplified than thru an amp in the house. A preamp overcomes the losses after the antenna terminals, ie the coax, splitter, poor tuner etc losses. Most quality preamps have enough gain to overcome losses from a 100 ft of coax and a four way splitter.

You would generally only use a distribution amp with a preamp if you were distributing the signal to like around 8 TV sets or so.

For your local stations, they are so strong you have to be concerned about overloading the tuner. You could probably do fine with no preamp or amp and a four way splitter. Terminate the unused connection on the splitter with a 75 ohm terminator if youre only going to use 3 of the 4 connections for now.
post #14045 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by terster View Post
I'm looking to add an outdoor antenna and am wondering if it's possible to pick up any Milwaukee stations?
You're going to need a serious tower (at least 60') for any chance of stations outside of Madison.
post #14046 of 16013
Am looking at putting a rooftop antenna up to pickup stations 60 odd miles away. Am not sure what type of Antenna I need. I can pick up local stations 5 - 7 Miles away, but we only have 4 HD stations and 3 sd sub channels, Madison would give me HD options on those as well as 5.1 audio for NBC.

TV Fool is:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...14f3c5fff170b0
post #14047 of 16013
Sorry, had to add another post to add a url, then redited the previous message..

Tv Fool is:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...14f3c5fff170b0
post #14048 of 16013
Yor stations of interest appear to be all UHF. This antenna should work well, aimed at 340° using a compass. It should also pick up your strong nearby chs, even though not aimed directly at them.
A low noise, high input preamp may also be needed.
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HDP-2...4C2/ref=sr_1_1
post #14049 of 16013
> it would be a waste of time, money, etc. to get any more antenna

More antenna will get more signal strength, less multipath
and less interference, resulting in more reliable reception.
The cost difference is rather small.
post #14050 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad2 View Post

>
20-30 hours? You're just getting warmed up!

Ideas:

91 XG with extra directors

bandpass filter the one RF channel you want
CM Jointenna or better yet talk to tinlee.com

ferrite around coax just ahead of tuner
(and just ahead of amp if using one)

> "wrap the reflector in foil"
foil may too thin? Try aluminum flashing (indoors)
or heavy gauge wire mesh (outdoors)
A solid reflector will catch a lot of wind.
If you can secure it sufficiently, go for it.
See also: http://www.prism.gatech.edu/%7Ewn17/

quad shield coax, or Belden 1694A

If you can identify a source of reflections,
there is the two antenna trick. (hdtvprimer.com)

500 foot tower :-)

I know 20-30hr isn't much to a hobbyist, but the WAF of this venture is approaching zero as we get closer to the fall TV season. I wouldn't be surprised if a Comcast tech was here this weekend. Of course, if I could get this working, I could cancel cable.

You can imagine the bedroom reception of a 500ft tower.

I've been able to tweak the tilt (about 15 degrees did it, 17-19 was too much!) of the 91XG such that I can apparently block the signal from WMAR 2 (UHF 38, Baltimore) from the backside, but that didn't positively affect the reception of WTXF 29 (UHF 42, Philly). Little movements of the antenna tilt didn't change the reception of the latter.

Based on that, I'm simply not sure that there is a problem with the co-channel, unless the tower is just ever so slightly off from the WMAR transmitter. At my distance, however, I can't see the variation as being more than hyper-acute in terms of degrees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post

I've never had a situation in which an HLSJ was inadequate to attenuate FM overload. I am inclined to shy away from Winegard preamps in metropolitan situations (and near FM transmitters) because their cases are not shielded, so even if you adequately filter FM off the coax, the case might still leak in an excessive amount.

I just tried putting the HLSJ after the amp: I could still get every channel but WTXF. I don't think this is an FM leak via the Wineguard amp. I'm also running quad-RG6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post

:
Is your coax grounded with a grounding block?

If the grounding isn't sufficient, wrap the coax around a ferrite toroid (FT-240-43) just before it enters the tuner, or place ferrite sleeves on the coax (the F connector needs to be off the end of the coax before the sleeves will fit).

Yes, I'm grounded via a block.

Can such toroids be picked up locally--RadioShack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower Guy View Post

These are also my choices for troubleshooting the problem.

You can buy a single filter from Blonder Tongue. http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...Hz-%28BPF-U%29

I've also built them using this design software; http://www.wa4dsy.net/cgi-bin/idbpf

Wouldn't a signal filter built around UHF 42 be subject to the same co-channel problems that I might be experiencing now? Don't both broadcast in the same frequency range? I've a childlike understanding of radio-frequency science, so maybe I'm missing something obvious.


Given that this setup worked fine a few miles away less than fifty days ago--and again, acknowledging I know nothing at all about the science of this subject--isn't the simplest answer that, for whatever reason, none of WTXF's radio waves are reaching this antenna's location in a strong enough fashion that I can receive them without extraordinary measures? Or is it simply impossible that I could have these issues with just one channel unless there's something wrong on my end?
post #14051 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

Yor stations of interest appear to be all UHF. This antenna should work well, aimed at 340° using a compass. It should also pick up your strong nearby chs, even though not aimed directly at them.
A low noise, high input preamp may also be needed.
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HDP-2...4C2/ref=sr_1_1

Thanks..

Before posting, I had a quick look at this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amplified-Di...item3a6a66dcd2

It's considerably cheaper than the Channel master but is the 125 miles just hype?

Do I need a preamp if I'm just running cable the height of the house and into a twin tuner hdhomerun? (In basement). Didn't know if the noise from the amp would be worth the noise reduction of the twin splitter (3db?) and the cable run?
post #14052 of 16013
Stay away from the ebay junk.
post #14053 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merconium View Post
Wouldn't a signal filter built around UHF 42 be subject to the same co-channel problems that I might be experiencing now?
Yes, that's true, a channel 42 filter will not eliminate cochannel interference.

We don't yet know for sure if the problem is a weak signal from WTXF, interference from a second channel 42, interference from another unidentified source, multipath from WTXF, or a combination of the above.
post #14054 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merconium View Post
Or is it simply impossible that I could have these issues with just one channel unless there's something wrong on my end?
Did you ever have the opportunity to test with a real TV or converter box?

Did you ever actually try pointing the antenna towards Annapolis, MD & see if the other RF 42 (WMPT) will decode?
post #14055 of 16013
>> I've never had a situation in which an HLSJ was inadequate
>> to attenuate FM overload.

IIRC the HLSJ provide about 20-22 dB. I used to use 20 dB FM traps,
and one helped, but using 2 or more was better. So one HLSJ might
not be enough.

> Can such toroids be picked up locally--RadioShack?

I don't know about RadioShack, I avoid them these days.
Some local electronics stores carry suitable torroids.
The torroid rack at my nearby store disappeared, so
I switched to parts-express.com.

> Wouldn't a signal filter built around UHF 42 be subject
> to the same co-channel problems that I might be experiencing now?

A RF42 bandpass filter will not eliminate another station on
RF42, but it will eliminate nearly everything else that
might be causing interference and/or overload.

To combat co-channel you'll need to work on the antenna,
try and point a null at the undesired station, or shield
the antenna from it, or add gain at the desired station.
Or find a tuner that deals with co-channel better.

> none of WTXF's radio waves are reaching this antenna's location
> in a strong enough fashion that I can receive them without
> extraordinary measures?

Not necessarily. You might have enough WTXF signal if the
co-channel wasn't there. (or whatever the actual problem is)

Think of it as a ratio of desired signal (main WTXF signal)
to everything else (multipath, other TV and radio stations,
noise, etc.). You want to do things that maximise that ratio.

If the alternative is paying for cable, the one time expense of
things like a good tinlee filter and additional directors are easy
to justify. A tower would have a longer payback period.
post #14056 of 16013
I'm not an engineer, but as a TV DXer for almost 50 years, my experience indicates that good reliable distant reception is all about the receive antenna's location. DTV reception can be very disappointing, or it can prove to be quite amazing.

In 1975 I helped a friend In Kokomo, IN install a 48 ft. tower with a Channel Master 4251 (7 ft. UHF parabolic) at the top (around 58 ft. to the very top of the parabolic). Picture of the discontinued 4251 at this site http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm The signal is being sent through about 110 ft. of RG6 coax with assistance from a Channel Master 7777 preamp. Now with DTV, he is able to watch WSBT, WSJV and WNIT, South Bend, IN stations @ 80-81 miles almost anytime. Another full-power South Bend station, WNDU, suffers from too much co-channel interference from WCLJ, Bloomington/Indianapolis @ 72 miles in the opposite direction and is often very difficult to receive/decode. WNDU does have a CP to increase its ERP in the near future, which should help. Here is the TV Fool report for this location http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...14f3d17c9cd5bc

Another friend near Quincy, IL, out in the country and away from the city, is able to receive most of the full-power St. Louis stations (KPLR, KSDK, KDNL, KMOV and KTVI) @ 97-101 miles at least 70-80 % of the time with the discontinued Radio Shack U-100 (Yagi) @ 18 ft. AGL with a Channel Master 7777 preamp. Picture of the U-100 is also featured at this site http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm
Here's the TV Fool report for this location http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...14f3e9af72bac5

Depending upon your location, YMMV.

Steve
post #14057 of 16013
Quote:
It's considerably cheaper than the Channel master but is the 125 miles just hype?
More than just hype, pretty much fraud. Consistent UHF reception is limited to Line Of Sight or just very slightly beyond, no matter the antenna. Thats about 65 to 70 miles for most people.
During certain tropospheric ducting conditions, its not uncommon to receive stations from even farther away than 125 miles for a brief period, even with just plain $5 rabbit ears.

The antenna linked to on ebay is basically just a small local area reception antenna, with a built in preamp and rotor of questionable quality and durability. The gain figures come from the addition of the preamp gain figures, so its not comparable to the antenna gains quoted by reputable antenna manufacturers.


Heh, they cant even quote specs right.

"Impedance 30 +/- 3db"
post #14058 of 16013
Quote:


isn't the simplest answer that, for whatever reason, none of WTXF's radio waves are reaching this antenna's location in a strong enough fashion that I can receive them without extraordinary measures?

Have you asked someone in the neighborhood, with an antenna, about their WTXF reception ?

Yes, its odd. I have 5.2 less NM, but LOS, and get WTXF more or less great. Your 2 edge reception is the most likely culprit.

Do you get the other 2 edge Philly stations fine, ie WPHL and WHYY ?

Do you get the other 2 Philly stations with less NM than WTXF, ie WGTW and WUVP ?

The Philly transmitters are all located within a small distance of each other.


Another option you have for the Eagles games, go out to a sports bar. Still should be cheaper than cable, heh.
post #14059 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

Have you asked someone in the neighborhood, with an antenna, about their WTXF reception ?

I took a walk last evening and looked for antennas. One I saw looked like it didn't have any coax. Another I spied did look hooked up, but he was quite a ways further up the hill. I didn't ring to ask what stations he got. Lots of Comcast/FiOS trucks roll here, and every third house has a dish.


Quote:


Do you get the other 2 edge Philly stations fine, ie WPHL and WHYY ?

I've actually got the 91XG inside the house right now (since I'm likely to return it), but these results are instructive: Two of my tuners get WPHL pretty well: 4 or 5 out of 6 bars, and all get WHYY at 5/6 or better (although it is VHF if that matters, off the Wineguard YA-6260).

Quote:


Do you get the other 2 Philly stations with less NM than WTXF, ie WGTW and WUVP ?

WGTW is 4/6, but the picture is a little unstable; in past experience that wouldn't hold up in a storm. WUVP is 4/6, but won't really lock.

Quote:


Another option you have for the Eagles games, go out to a sports bar. Still should be cheaper than cable, heh.

My wife complained enough to Comcast to get them to add Limited Basic to our current cable internet for no charge. I may simply devote my dual tuner for cable (ClearQAM) and run the antenna into the other two (so I'd have two antenna and two cable recorders) so I can still get the uncompressed HD channels on the stations I do get. I can edit the sources in the guide so WMC records the right channel with the right tuner.
post #14060 of 16013
Youre good for today anyway. The Eagles game is on Sunday Night Football on channel 10 (real 34) tonight.
post #14061 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

Yor stations of interest appear to be all UHF. This antenna should work well, aimed at 340° using a compass. It should also pick up your strong nearby chs, even though not aimed directly at them.
A low noise, high input preamp may also be needed.
http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HDP-2...4C2/ref=sr_1_1

Thanks for the help. I had to get a yagi type antenna in the end as no where locally stocked the channel master and I had a friend comming Saturday to help install. Ended up with an antenna from Radio Shack which was rated for 60miles or so and had good reviews (Antennacraft HBU33? - afair). Bought a tripod and mast too. The Mast was $15, the tripod 93cents as it was in the store for over ten years!

I set it up and pulled in the 60 mile+ stations with it sitting on my deck. In the morning they didn't work - but it was enough to reprogram my MythTV and hdhomerun setup. Setting it up on the roof was quite straighforward. According to a google map overlay, the wisconsin stations were exactly 90 degrees from my road, so alignment was pretty good.

Wisconsin stations work really well now, however, my local stations are not 100% reliable, probably as they're hitting the yagi at an angle and would be ghosting if it were analog. Am trying to work out if I can be bothered to stick a little antenna pointed at them on the roof of just keep Myth configured to use the Basic Cable connection for locals..

Thanks for the help. I am really happy with how it worked.
post #14062 of 16013
A Houston update,
I have two Hdd500, On Sunday the one unit locked up and I powered it up and down a few times. It came back on and I lost all TV Guide and all channel listings, just No data, No grid.
The unit is OTA only no cable.

Well I did a full TVGuide reset since I had notthing to lose, The clock came back in a few
minutes but no listing data and no grid, I was think I need to do the take to Moms
who have cable to reset the unit. I did leave it set to 11.1 before I turned it off overnight.


Well checked it the next night and I had full TV Gide , Grid with new channels and listing
for all stations.
WOW.
Nice to see it updated from OTA only.

Mike
post #14063 of 16013
Quote:


however, my local stations are not 100% reliable, probably as they're hitting the yagi at an angle and would be ghosting if it were analog.

Yeah, multipath (ghosting) combined with probable overloading. At 60+, 70+ NM for the locals, just use a small indoor antenna. Sticking even a little antenna on the roof for them may be too overpowering, unless you want to use attenuators.

Quote:


the tripod 93cents as it was in the store for over ten years!

I dont think the RS tripod was as low as 93 cents even 40 years ago, heh.
post #14064 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad2 View Post

>> I've never had a situation in which an HLSJ was inadequate
>> to attenuate FM overload.

IIRC the HLSJ provide about 20-22 dB. I used to use 20 dB FM traps,
and one helped, but using 2 or more was better. So one HLSJ might
not be enough.....

I just tested a garden variety HLSJ with no brand name on it, and it attenuated the FM band by 27dB. When Konrad used 20dB FM traps, were they the conventional 93-108 Mhz traps, as nearly all were? Those roll off between 88 and 93, and so many FM signals will be attenuated much less than 20dB by those traps, whereas the HLSJ attenuation is a flat over the entire band.
post #14065 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

Yeah, multipath (ghosting) combined with probable overloading. At 60+, 70+ NM for the locals, just use a small indoor antenna. Sticking even a little antenna on the roof for them may be too overpowering, unless you want to use attenuators.

My first attempt at this failed. Then I tried again with a splitter up to 900mhz(? not sure if that was correct - but not the 2000mhz one I had) and it worked really well. I have a set top antenna in my daughter bedroom which I connected to the splitter along with the rooftop antenna. All seems well now..
post #14066 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merconium View Post

...I just tried putting the HLSJ after the amp: I could still get every channel but WTXF. I don't think this is an FM leak via the Wineguard amp. ...

The HLSJ or any other filter must go BEFORE the amp, on its input side, to reduce intermodulation within the amplifier.

You might try wrapping the unshielded Winegard amplifier case in aluminum foil to see if that additional shielding helps.
post #14067 of 16013
Quote:


My first attempt at this failed. Then I tried again with a splitter up to 900mhz(? not sure if that was correct - but not the 2000mhz one I had) and it worked really well. I have a set top antenna in my daughter bedroom which I connected to the splitter along with the rooftop antenna. All seems well now..

Yeah, a two way splitter acts as a 3.5+ db attenuator and a four way one as a 7+ db attenuator. Terminate the unused terminals with a 75 ohm terminator.

Quote:


I have a set top antenna in my daughter bedroom which I connected to the splitter along with the rooftop antenna. All seems well now..

That setup also knocks gain from the distant stations. However, if their signals are strong enough, thats all you need.
post #14068 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post

The HLSJ or any other filter must go BEFORE the amp, on its input side, to reduce intermodulation within the amplifier.

You might try wrapping the unshielded Winegard amplifier case in aluminum foil to see if that additional shielding helps.

Thanks: The HLSJ test was to see if the plastic amp box was letting in FM. I can try the foil wrap later this week.
post #14069 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merconium View Post

Thanks: The HLSJ test was to see if the plastic amp box was letting in FM. I can try the foil wrap later this week.

But you also need to move the HLSJ to the input side, because once the FM has leaked into the circuit, however it gets there, the damage to the desired signals cannot be undone by filtering it off the output.
post #14070 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post

But you also need to move the HLSJ to the input side, because once the FM has leaked into the circuit, however it gets there, the damage to the desired signals cannot be undone by filtering it off the output.

Sorry I wasn't clear; I didn't note your name and so I assumed you'd been following this sorry saga.

I tried the HLSJ in the right spot (before the amp) last week and reported on it, but that didn't change my inability to get WTXF 29 (42 UHF) Philadelphia.
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