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The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 502

post #15031 of 16087
Quote:
with a rotor
Or since there is only two directions to be concerned with, two separate coax downleads from two different antennas into an A-B switch at the TV. The 7698P for Chicago and a cheap 4 bay bowtie for LOS. Preamp the Chicago antenna, but not the LOS antenna. An A-B switch is a lot faster at changing directions 180 degrees than a rotor, heh. And cheaper (and more reliable) to.
smile.gif

If youre willing to build your own custom antenna, you could make do with just one. Because your LOS stations are so strong, you should be able to get them from the back of a GH10n3 aimed at Chicago.


http://clients.teksavvy.com/~nickm/gh_n3_uV/gh10n3_9V7_15u0.html
Edited by 300ohm - 7/10/12 at 4:46am
post #15032 of 16087
Quote:
since WLS is on VHF (channel 7) you'll need an antenna with high VHF,

Actually, WLS is on RF44 and on RF7 on their way to (presumably) going UHF only. It's WBBM that's currently VHF only although they appear to have a CP to build a low-power UHF translator.

WGVK is in Kalamazoo, not Chicago. As it's on RF5, it would require a deep-fringe antenna with excellent low-VHF performance to have a shot.

The OP will have to decide what he wants and how much he's willing to put into the project.
Edited by ProjectSHO89 - 7/10/12 at 4:56am
post #15033 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by MejustMe View Post

We here in La Porte County (IN) and West are the Step Children as far as news and weather go on local channels out of South Bend unlike the Chicago Stations let alone the area north of Chicago is really home so that is why we needed an antennae to pick up stations from as far away as possible. Otherwise we have to listen to those ingrates in the South Bend Area that think they are the only people in this area. SO...... PLEASE HELP.

Here is another idea to consider. Since the Indiana stations provide all of the major networks, and it appears that the main reason for wanting Chicago stations is to view their local news the OP could aim any small UHF antenna towards South Bend and sombine that with a Winegard YA-1713 to receive the CBS affilate in Chicago on channel 12. The two antennas are combined with a UVSJ (UHF/VHF signal joiner) such as this
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-Separator%2FCombiner-for-Antenna-(UVSJ) and no rotor or switch is needed.
post #15034 of 16087
There is more info on the site explaining the terms. You will have difficulty receiving anything less than zero Noise Margin.

The two different directions indicate you either need two antennas or a rotator to get both groups of stations. It it was me, I would use a rotator.

Also, the Winegard preamp I am using includes both VHF and UHF inputs.
post #15035 of 16087
In looking up the suggested Winegard 7698 I ran across the Winegard HD8200U HDTV/UHF/VHF/Tv Antenna. The specs on it says 100+ miles range. The info I read was:
"The best of the best. The HD8200U has some of the highest gain of any consumer grade antenna. Built to last so if you just want to purchase an antenna once this is the one you want. Includes weather proof cartridge house for download module with 75 Ohm coaxial connection. Zinc plated high quality steel construction for maximum corrosion resistance and heavy duty construction. No transformer required this antenna uses a unique PC board with a direct 75 Ohm connection. Directional performance offers high gain reception while blocking out interference. Turning Radius: 101 . 69 Active Elements 34 VHF elements and 35 UHF elements. Estimated range 100+ miles VHF 60+ miles UHF. Includes hardware for mounting to a mast; antenna has a 75 ohm coax connection. Great for the those in a low signal areas trying to overcome loss from trees and terrain or those who simply want the best. High quality construction offers extra strength with double boom braces high-impact ABS girder design and supports. Platinum HD antennas deliver powerful VHF performance and offer additional 1 dB to 2 dB higher gain on VHF and UHF important for weak signal areas.. Outstanding UHF reception acheived by precise director spacing and highly efficient corner reflectors. Boom: 168.25 L x 110 W 33 H".

Anybody have any experience with this one? I'm willing to pay the money if it works. Oh I forgot to mention since we are so high up over the lake on the back side of the house there is a line of electrical transmission towers that are 100 to 150' that run across the front of the house and are like a wind tunnel when storms come through here so anything on top of the tower needs to be able to withstand some pretty good winds.and weather. If I don't need a preamp what else should be part of the configuration? Remote Rotor? Amplifier?
post #15036 of 16087
The 7698 is essentially an 8200 with the 2-6 elements removed. The 8200 is one of the largest consumer antennas on the market at 10 feet wide and 14 feet long. Unless you need reception of real channels 2-6, there is no advantage in placing the extra sized elements up in the air.
post #15037 of 16087
MjM: I have the 7698 that has been in service for 3 years and it has been through 100mph wind storm last year that brought down trees in my backyard and never fazed it. It is a very sturdy antenna as far as withstandig the weather. I previously had a similar sized 8200 antenna before digital transition and then after that put up the 7698. It was a big improvement over the 8200 type as far as reception is concerned. I think you would like the 7698 compared to the 8200 as far as performance.
post #15038 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by MejustMe View Post

Estimated range 100+ miles VHF 60+ miles UHF.

100 miles on low VHF (2-6) and 60 miles on UHF and there are a lot of factors that can affect this. Antennas don't have mileage ratings. It's marketing.
Quote:
Oh I forgot to mention since we are so high up over the lake on the back side of the house there is a line of electrical transmission towers that are 100 to 150' that run across the front of the house and are like a wind tunnel when storms come through here so anything on top of the tower needs to be able to withstand some pretty good winds.and weather. If I don't need a preamp what else should be part of the configuration? Remote Rotor? Amplifier?

Electrical transmission towers can produce a lot of noise which is harmful to DTV and is more of a problem on low VHF (2-6). I think I'd skip the HD 8200U and just go with the 7698P. Electrical noise is less of an issue on high VHF (7-13) and basically a non-issue on UHF. It's up to you whether you want to use a rotor or have two separate antennas pointed in your two main directions and use a A/B switch. I'd be very careful about using any preamplifiers when you have 5 stations with >50 dB noise margin. Those are very strong.

Chuck
post #15039 of 16087
What do you mean when you say:

"Unless you need reception of real channels 2-6, there is no advantage in placing the extra sized elements up in the air."

Channels 2 to 6 come out of Chicago if they mean what I think they mean so I definately need to get those channels.
post #15040 of 16087
What are the stations you need to get. Please list channel number, Call sign, and RF Channel...
post #15041 of 16087
If you don't need the Chicago stations WOCK or WCVK which transmit on RF4 and RF5, respectively, then you don't need an antenna that can receive RF2 to RF6. You can use a smaller and cheaper antenna such as the 7698.

Channel 2, 3, and 5 are virtual channels. They actually transmit in either the Hi_VHF or the UHF band.
Edited by retiredengineer - 7/11/12 at 11:45am
post #15042 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

If you don't need the Chicago stations WOCK or WCVK which transmit on RF4 and RF5, respectively ...
For WOCK on RF4, yes, but WCVK is a radio station in Bowling Green, Kentucky.  There is no ATSC or NTSC signal on RF 5 in the Chicago market.
Quote:
Channel 2, 3, and 5 are virtual channels. They actually transmit in either the Hi_VHF or the UHF band.
Nor is there a television station using real nor virtual channel 3 in the Chicago DMA, but there R.E. may have been referring to some other location.
Edited by dattier - 7/11/12 at 12:03pm
post #15043 of 16087
The main ones we want to watch is:
CH 2 CBS WBBM
CH 5 NBC WMAQ
CH 7 ABC WLS-TV
CH 9 (Indep) WGN-TV
CH 11 PBS WTTW
CH 32 FOX WFLD
CH 50 FOX WPWR

Since I don't know what RF Channel means I hope I have given you what you need. There are many more Chicago stations but these are the main ones. Any thing else would be a bonus
post #15044 of 16087
dattier, thanks for the catch. WCVK should be WGVK and yes it is not a Chicago station. My bad.

MejustMe, RF Channel means the actual frequency they are transmitting on. It may or may not match the displayed channel.

WBBM shows Channel 2 on the TV but they actual transmit on RF 12 which is Hi-VHF.
WMAQ shows Channel 5 on the TV but they actual transmit on RF 29 which is UHF.
The rest of your listed channels are all transmitted on Hi-VHF or UHF.

You do not need an antenna that claims to receive Channel 2 to Channel 6 since there are no stations from your list that actually transmit on those channels.
Edited by retiredengineer - 7/11/12 at 4:20pm
post #15045 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by MejustMe View Post

Since I don't know what RF Channel means I hope I have given you what you need.

Welcome to the wonderful world of virtual channel numbering. smile.gif Your TV Fool list shows Channel Real and (Virt). Virtual is the channel the station used in the analog days. So that stations didn't have to change their branding, and supposedly not to confuse the public when many stations changed their channel when they switched to digital, the virtual channel numbering system was invented so you could enter the old channel number on your remote but receive the new channel. When you first connect up your antenna you perform a channel scan and the TV creates a look-up table converting virtual to real channels. The problem is that you need to know on which channels the stations actually transmit so that you buy the correct antenna.

Personally I think virtual channel numbering is a terrible idea. I have yet to run across anyone who is not confused the first time they encounter it. The TV manufacturers have many different ways of implementing the system in software which also causes confusion. I hope you have a TV that has an "Add Channel" function so that after you scan your locals you can switch to Chicago and do another scan to add those in. Some TVs can't do this so it largely precludes receiving stations from multiple directions.

Chuck
post #15046 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Personally I think virtual channel numbering is a terrible idea.

What was the alternative? To have all these stations re-brand themselves? As if that would be LESS confusing?
post #15047 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

What was the alternative? To have all these stations re-brand themselves? As if that would be LESS confusing?

Yes, that would be much less confusing. After a couple of days everyone would have it figured out. There would be no lasting confusion over which antenna you needed because the channel number would tell you. TVs would have much less complicated software because you'd only have direct channel entry like analog did. There would be no virtual channel mapping conflicts like I have here that prevent me from tuning to some out of market stations.

People with cable know what channel number the stations are on. If they can remember that they can remember the RF number. If stations didn't rebrand, then they could ID like this for example: KMAX CW 31 - Cable 12 - Over the Air 21. Seems straightforward to me.

Chuck
post #15048 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Yes, that would be much less confusing. After a couple of days everyone would have it figured out. There would be no lasting confusion over which antenna you needed because the channel number would tell you. TVs would have much less complicated software because you'd only have direct channel entry like analog did. There would be no virtual channel mapping conflicts like I have here that prevent me from tuning to some out of market stations.

It is a problem. But, remember, you are not supposed to be tuning in out of market stations. Having almost no way out of the box worries me, too.
I think the mess will straighten out, if broadcasting continues as a viable concern. I'm not sure that is going to happen, though.
post #15049 of 16087
I had problems tuning in IN MARKET stations! We have a station on RF 12 with a PSIP also of channel 12 (12.1/12.2). They also program two low power stations on RF 36 and RF 43. Guess what? BOTH of those ALSO carry a PSIP of 12 (12.3/12.4). So we have 12.1/12.2/12.3/12.4/12.3/12.4! I had two HDTVs that would only lock in one of the 12s. I could have ABC/NBC or MyNetwork TV/MeTV. Virtual channels su "ck IMHO.
post #15050 of 16087
I agree virtual channels s*cks.

On my Sony TV, I can enter the real RF channel numbers and receive the virtual channels. It may work for you.

KBMT 12.3 and 12.4, oops, it appears you have to enter the virtual channels 12.1 and 12.2, respectively.
KUIL 43.5 and 43.6, real RF.
K36ID-D 36.5, 36.6, real RF.

Another PITA since you have to find out what the real RF channels are and enter the digits.
Edited by retiredengineer - 7/13/12 at 3:22pm
post #15051 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

I agree virtual channels s*cks.
On my Sony TV, I can enter the real RF channel numbers and receive the virtual channels. It may work for you.
KBMT 12.3 and 12.4, oops, it appears you have to enter the virtual channels 12.1 and 12.2, respectively.
KUIL 43.5 and 43.6, real RF.
K36ID-D 36.5, 36.6, real RF.


I can ONLY recieve a station (that is not in scan) by punching up the RF channel. That means that if I have a conflict, I have to take the conflicting stations out of scan (memory). It sounds simple, but I'm not finding it so wonderful. The receiver displays virtual numbers, so I have little habitual reference to the rf numbers. Some are in clusters. And worse, I've taken to only turning on a set to watch something, not to play a numbers quiz.
I imagine when repacking comes, broadcasters might decide to give up on virual IDs to avoid problems. This foolishness should have ended with the analog shutdown.
post #15052 of 16087
In some markets, like here in San Francisco, the virtual channel numbers vs the transmitter channel numbers can be quite confusing. Here are a few examples:

KTVU 2 transmits on 44. KBCW 44 transmits on 45.
KRON 4 transmits on 38. KCNS 38 transmits on 39.
KVIE 6 transmits on 9. KQED 9 transmits on 30.
KEMO 50 transmits on 32. KMTP 32 transmits on 33. KQEH 54 transmits on 50.

That's just a few of the wierd combinations.

Stations should have been made to go with their RF channel numbers for their ID when analog TV ended. Any confusion would have ended in a few days. It's now been over three years and counting and many are still confused.

Larry
SF
post #15053 of 16087
KVIE 6 transmits on RF channel 9 (VHF) in San Francisco as stated above, but KFDM 6 transmits on RF channel 25 (UHF) here in Beaumont, Tx.

ONLY the government could come up with something that idiotic...
post #15054 of 16087
Here's the worst mess I have here:

KBSV - Virtual 23, Real 15
KLFB - Virtual 22, Real 22
KRCB - Virtual 22, Real 23
KEXT - Virtual 23, Real 23

Right now I have KBSV and KLFB scanned in since they are the strongest. Officially KBSV and KEXT are in-market stations. How do I get the TV to tune to real 23 with no direct channel entry? I can't. What a mess. Without virtual channels I'd just point the antenna towards the station, enter the RF number and I'd receive the station or not.

Chuck
post #15055 of 16087
One thing I forgot to mention above where having virtual channels is a problem is when you want to manually go to a transmitter channel. I've found that if you tune to the transmitter channel, you often are able to peak the antenna to pull in a distant station that is not picked up during a scan. The receiver gets enough signal to add the station to your station list and then you're able to receive it again later on.

Say I want to get KAXT into my channel list because it was missed when I did a scan. I punch in "42", the KAXT transmitter channel, and what do I get? KTNC 42 transmitting on channel 14. Wonderful, eh?

Larry
SF
post #15056 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

One thing I forgot to mention above where having virtual channels is a problem is when you want to manually go to a transmitter channel. I've found that if you tune to the transmitter channel, you often are able to peak the antenna to pull in a distant station that is not picked up during a scan. The receiver gets enough signal to add the station to your station list and then you're able to receive it again later on.
Say I want to get KAXT into my channel list because it was missed when I did a scan. I punch in "42", the KAXT transmitter channel, and what do I get? KTNC 42 transmitting on channel 14. Wonderful, eh?
Larry
SF
-
I have been told that the conflict here with KTNC and KAXT might be resolved with a "memory dump". Perform a complete OTA scan with no antenna to remove all stations from memory. Turn the power off to the receiver. Turn power back on. It may then be possible to enter "42". and receive KAXT, there being no prejudice in memory for KTNC. My reciever will not hunt a virual channel number, but will display and remember one. The drawback to a "memory dump" is that one will have to manually put back all stations into memory.
post #15057 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by difuse View Post

-
I have been told that the conflict here with KTNC and KAXT might be resolved with a "memory dump". My reciever will not hunt a virual channel number, but will display and remember one. The drawback to a "memory dump" is that one will have to manually put back all stations into memory.

Sounds like a plan that would work. Only problem is having to add all of the stations now in memory... that'd be a very time consuming task.

Larry
SF
post #15058 of 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Sounds like a plan that would work. Only problem is having to add all of the stations now in memory... that'd be a very time consuming task.
Larry
SF

Yep. One could write down all the RF channels and antenna vectors before hand, and simplfy the process.And, all that is required is the channel, the subchannels come with it. I'm waiting to get ambitious enough to do it. I've only got about 25 stations to enter, so it won't be as big a job as some might have. But I am going to have to get ambitious.
post #15059 of 16087
UPDATE.
I had no trouble deleting a channel from memory, turning the rceiver off, and then having no memory of it left. Simple and easy. No need to delete the entire scan or cut power.
post #15060 of 16087
I'm not sure if this is the right thread.. but I'm going frustrated I'm having an issue getting WNBC here in CT to watch the Olympics.. first of all I did a channel scan and I have a combiner so I get around 22 channels..

Anyways I noticed WNBC was not listed.. So I ended up punching in the UHF number of 28 and it gets added! and I watched it for 4-5 hours with no break up, Now I don't get any signal and if I do it's really really broken up..

All my other UHF channels are fine. I'm not sure what's wrong but I'm using a silver sensor outdoors which I have been for 3 years and maybe it's just showing it's age?

It's sitting in my window on top of my AC unit maybe 17 Ft off the ground? I was thinking about getting a Antenna direct C2 with a 40 inch jpole to mount on the side of the AC unit to get some extra height as much as I can.

The antenna on my apartment complex sadly is VHF only and I have no complaints about it.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d990044c55ddbcc
Edited by SubaruB4 - 7/30/12 at 7:00pm
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