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The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 503

post #15061 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

Anyways I noticed WNBC was not listed.. So I ended up punching in the UHF number of 28 and it gets added! and I watched it for 4-5 hours with no break up, Now I don't get any signal and if I do it's really really broken up.

My guess is that your antenna is in an unlucky location for that one station. Moving the antenna to a different spot or higher or lower might work. Since you don't have LOS to your stations, atmospheric conditions can affect the signals quite a bit which is why you see the station come and go. It might require a different antenna. You'll have to experiment. There's no easy sure fire answer.
post #15062 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

My guess is that your antenna is in an unlucky location for that one station. Moving the antenna to a different spot or higher or lower might work. Since you don't have LOS to your stations, atmospheric conditions can affect the signals quite a bit which is why you see the station come and go. It might require a different antenna. You'll have to experiment. There's no easy sure fire answer.
I think it must be atmospheric conditions plus the antenna height.. I'm thinking about maybe this week or next changing it out to see how it goes maybe about an extra 4 Ft higher then it's current 11 Ft off the ground height.

Crazy because the station looked really good when I was watching.
post #15063 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

I think it must be atmospheric conditions plus the antenna height.. I'm thinking about maybe this week or next changing it out to see how it goes maybe about an extra 4 Ft higher then it's current 11 Ft off the ground height.
Crazy because the station looked really good when I was watching.

Hi,

Try entering your exact address into:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

Then select "Show lines pointing to each transmitter" and select WNBC below.

Using just your zip code and zooming in and out shows a unclear patten, your exact address hopefully will be green.

Moving left and right may also help, front and back may be harder to do but you have three directions that might produce better results.

But moving your antenna in any direction may lose or add other stations.

SHF
post #15064 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,
Try entering your exact address into:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90
Then select "Show lines pointing to each transmitter" and select WNBC below.
Using just your zip code and zooming in and out shows a unclear patten, your exact address hopefully will be green.
Moving left and right may also help, front and back may be harder to do but you have three directions that might produce better results.
But moving your antenna in any direction may lose or add other stations.
SHF

Here is mine I forgot to change the antenna height but it's maybe 13 Ft which I doubt is going to make much of a difference.. In the morning I will check what my new setup will be I think it will be an extra 3-4 ft taller.

Untitled.jpg
Edited by SubaruB4 - 7/30/12 at 9:27pm
post #15065 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

Here is mine I forgot to change the antenna height but it's maybe 13 Ft which I doubt is going to make much of a difference.. In the morning I will check what my new setup will be I think it will be an extra 3-4 ft taller.

Hi,

I am wondering what the terrian is near you.

That color pattern (which is what I got using just your zipcode) makes me wonder if you are in a small valley with a hill or two between you and the transmittor.

On the original TVFool click on WNBC.

You will get a display of the hills and valleys between you and the transmittor.

But I am unedicated as to how to understand such an almost flat pattern, I am more used to lots more hills in the way. I am not even sure which end is which.

If you wish, send me a PM (Please do not post) with your Lat. and Lon. and I can use my mapping program to check closer.

At ~ 28 miles I am also puzzled by so many 1Edge entries.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d99003ff02506fe

My main stations are ~ 36 miles and LOS. I just checked and the station at ~ 97 miles is just fine right now.

I hope someone more knowledagable will help explain and help more.

I find the Google earth TVFool page to be more understandable, but then I do a lot of mapping.

SHF
post #15066 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,
I am wondering what the terrian is near you.
That color pattern (which is what I got using just your zipcode) makes me wonder if you are in a small valley with a hill or two between you and the transmittor.
On the original TVFool click on WNBC.
You will get a display of the hills and valleys between you and the transmittor.
But I am unedicated as to how to understand such an almost flat pattern, I am more used to lots more hills in the way. I am not even sure which end is which.

If you wish, send me a PM (Please do not post) with your Lat. and Lon. and I can use my mapping program to check closer.
At ~ 28 miles I am also puzzled by so many 1Edge entries.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d99003ff02506fe
My main stations are ~ 36 miles and LOS. I just checked and the station at ~ 97 miles is just fine right now.
I hope someone more knowledagable will help explain and help more.
I find the Google earth TVFool page to be more understandable, but then I do a lot of mapping.
SHF

Yep you got it right I'm in a valley.. when it says LOS does that mean I need to point my antenna LOS or does that mean I would have a clear LOS view from the transmitter to my home?

I will PM you the coordinates.
post #15067 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

Yep you got it right I'm in a valley.. when it says LOS does that mean I need to point my antenna LOS or does that mean I would have a clear LOS view from the transmitter to my home?
I will PM you the coordinates.

Hi,

LOS = Line of sight, yes "clear LOS view from the transmitter to my home?"

No hills or mountains in the way.

Click on "KEMO-TV" to see what is in the way of my 1Edge ~ 97 mile station.

Click on "KRCB-DT" to see an ideal LOS to my ~ 75 mile station.

They both are possible as much of the path is over water (SF Bay).

But the weather may stop both or one of them.

SHF
post #15068 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,
LOS = Line of sight, yes "clear LOS view from the transmitter to my home?"
No hills or mountains in the way.
Click on "KEMO-TV" to see what is in the way of my 1Edge ~ 97 mile station.
Click on "KRCB-DT" to see an ideal LOS to my ~ 75 mile station.
They both are possible as much of the path is over water (SF Bay).
But the weather may stop both or one of them.
SHF

I put my coordinates in and the list changed a bit to where the location of the antenna is.

Funny how it says WNBC is LOS but I have my doubts.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900b7b85fc867
post #15069 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

I put my coordinates in and the list changed a bit to where the location of the antenna is.
Funny how it says WNBC is LOS but I have my doubts.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900b7b85fc867

Hi,

That is quite a difference.

How does the LOS entries in the new TVFool match the 22 channels?

Perhaps you need to tell us again what your antenna system is. I do not like the term "combiner" you used.

If the antennas are a VHF one on the roof and a UHF only one combined with a VHF / UHF combiner, then that is fine.

Otherwise, you need to tell us more so we can help you better.

SHF
post #15070 of 16027
Oh another thing about WNBC is it's all coming from the same transmitter site (Empire Sate Building) which is a little baffling.. maybe WNBC's transmitter is lower then the others? because it too is showing LOS.

But as of 40 min ago I opened my window to look at the UHF antenna and poof.. WNBC came on with no breakups..

I'm going to raise it another 40 inches but I have a question about a J-pole antenna mount.. Because how I have to mount it I have swing out screens, so in order for the antenna not to hit the screen I have to angle the Jpole mount but then I would need to tilt the antenna up to compensate for that tilt, I was wondering if some adapter allowed that for the antenna?
post #15071 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,
That is quite a difference.
How does the LOS entries in the new TVFool match the 22 channels?
Perhaps you need to tell us again what your antenna system is. I do not like the term "combiner" you used.
If the antennas are a VHF one on the roof and a UHF only one combined with a VHF / UHF combiner, then that is fine.
Otherwise, you need to tell us more so we can help you better.
SHF

Sorry did not see this message.

The VHF antenna is on the Roof so I pretty much get the bulk of my channels from that, the combiner is being used with the UHF antenna on my window AC unit which it has been in the same spot for about 3 years now with minor adjustments... It's not really outdoor rated but has done better then I thought. But I'm using a UVSJ combiner.

The TV fool is about spot on but I don't get WLIW OR WNYE

I can get WPIX very good despite it showing in yellow

Also W27CD seems to be a local station in Stamford which is not far from me but I think it's analog only? no big deal I was just curious about it.

Also WPXN is show a co-channel warning but a co-channel of what other channel? Because that channel will break up but not fully go out, WMBC does not come in, if I remember right UHF is very directional but I did not think that much.. but I guess being that far from the transmitter site a few degrees = a few miles of pointing on my end.
post #15072 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post


Hi,

I am going to pass you onto others for better help.

SHF
post #15073 of 16027
Thanks for trying to help out anyways
post #15074 of 16027
Hi Calaveras,

A while back you suggested a Winegard 8700 to use with the M8 I built for my mom whose tvfool is

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900c34f2b55a9

and this worked out quite well as she has CBS, NBC, VPT, and V (among the total of 19 channels when including the subchannels) which is a surprise because the signal strength is not listed as very strong.

Maybe the info will help someone else.

Thanks again
post #15075 of 16027
I meant V channel 30, not the other one!
post #15076 of 16027
Wow I found something else out.. If I put my shade down where the UHF antenna is WNBC drops away to no signal.. Odd... it's in front of a window.. the shade is inside on the other side of the glass and is plastic.. Odd...
post #15077 of 16027
Quote:
Yep you got it right I'm in a valley.. when it says LOS does that mean I need to point my antenna LOS or does that mean I would have a clear LOS view from the transmitter to my home?

LOS means you have Line Of Sight clear to the transmitter. In a valley, tilting the antenna to aim for the top of the hill usually helps.

Quote:
Wow I found something else out.. If I put my shade down where the UHF antenna is WNBC drops away to no signal.. Odd... it's in front of a window.. the shade is inside on the other side of the glass and is plastic.. Odd...
The plastic may have some metallic content in it.
post #15078 of 16027
@Subaru84, there are many ways that local features can spoil reception. This (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html) page explains this very well. Note in the illustrations that the hot/cold bands for VHF are much thicker than for UHF. This is due to the different wavelengths of the signals. Since every channel's wavelength is different, no two channels will have exactly the same interference pattern.

So, what I'm trying to get at is your antenna may be in a local cold spot for WNBC. Moving the antenna up/down/sideways a little may be all you have to do. However, if this is your problem, moving the antenna may make another channel worse.

@SFischer1, on TVFool's path profiles, the transmitter is always on the far left (the white-hot signal shows you) and your receive location is always on the far right. It is often very hard to see where the terrain blockage is on a long path without many features, as there aren't enough pixels to go around.
post #15079 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

LOS means you have Line Of Sight clear to the transmitter. In a valley, tilting the antenna to aim for the top of the hill usually helps.
The plastic may have some metallic content in it.

Thats what I've been doing.. However do they make something that allows you to tilt a antenna on a Jpole? I know the Jpole can tilt at the base but I need something to tilt at the antenna end or the way I have to mount it will have the antenna pointing towards the ground

Also I'm sitting here and it's weird.. If I leave my seat (I sit right in front of my 40") My signal goes away but as soon as I sit back down I get a signal but it's broken up, but If I hold my hand out pointed to the antenna I get a signal..

It confuses me because I'm inside and somehow I must be acting a reflector.. possible multipath interference? I've never seen anything like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Loudin View Post

@Subaru84, there are many ways that local features can spoil reception. This (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html) page explains this very well. Note in the illustrations that the hot/cold bands for VHF are much thicker than for UHF. This is due to the different wavelengths of the signals. Since every channel's wavelength is different, no two channels will have exactly the same interference pattern.
So, what I'm trying to get at is your antenna may be in a local cold spot for WNBC. Moving the antenna up/down/sideways a little may be all you have to do. However, if this is your problem, moving the antenna may make another channel worse.
@SFischer1, on TVFool's path profiles, the transmitter is always on the far left (the white-hot signal shows you) and your receive location is always on the far right. It is often very hard to see where the terrain blockage is on a long path without many features, as there aren't enough pixels to go around.
Yeah but lucky for me most of the channels I watch are on VHF but WNBC is the only one I care about that's on UHF I'm trying to get so if I can get that and drop the other UHF stations I would not mind.
post #15080 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

Quote:
The TV fool is about spot on but I don't get WLIW OR WNYE. I can get WPIX very good despite it showing in yellow

Yellow is not weak. With an outdoor on the roof VHF antenna I would expect that any station with a noise margin of 29 dB to be easy.
Quote:
Also W27CD seems to be a local station in Stamford which is not far from me but I think it's analog only? no big deal I was just curious about it.

W27CD has a construction permit for channel 43 but I don't think they're on the air. They look to be analog only on 27.
Quote:
Also WPXN is show a co-channel warning but a co-channel of what other channel?

Look farther down the list. It is co-channel with WTIC. WPXN is predicted to be 30 dB stronger so the co-channel shouldn't be a problem.
Quote:
Because that channel will break up but not fully go out, WMBC does not come in, if I remember right UHF is very directional but I did not think that much.. but I guess being that far from the transmitter site a few degrees = a few miles of pointing on my end.

Dave and I have told you the same thing. It's most likely antenna location. With a good antenna 30' off the ground and a rotor you should be able to receive most every station that is above 0 dB noise margin in your TV Fool list. I wish I had it so good. smile.gif

Chuck
post #15081 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300ohm View Post

In a valley, tilting the antenna to aim for the top of the hill usually helps.

I usually leave this stuff alone but this is one that drives me crazy. smile.gif

Tilting the antenna up or down a little cannot possibly make any difference in the signal strength. The 1 dB vertical beamwidth on almost any antenna is a least 20 degrees wide. Tilting it a few degrees cannot make any difference.

Now, if in the rare case it actually does make a difference, the reason is that a reflection has been moved into a null on a side or back lobe increasing the SNR. That's just luck of the draw like opening or closing the window shades or changing the antenna position by some amount. You're just as likely to lose a station as you are to gain one by tilting the antenna if you have multipath issues.

Chuck
post #15082 of 16027
I wish I had my own place because I would never have to post this but like I said it's impossible to get my antenna 30' ft in the air.. my antenna is already 11ft AGL to try and get an extra 19 Ft would be crazy with a Jpole mounted to a AC unit

A rotator would be useless for the reasons above

I really don't have it easy at all frown.gif

I bet things would be a lot better if I lived on the 3rd floor I think it's like 50 or so feet AGL.

I don't think I can get WMBC until I elevate the antenna.

As for W27CD it seems like they are off the air because of the sell of the station or perhaps the station was not included in the sell of WLNY.
Edited by SubaruB4 - 7/31/12 at 11:02pm
post #15083 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

I
I really don't have it easy at all frown.gif.

You don't know how bad bad can be. smile.gif

Take a look at my TV Fool Results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d990069cc29623c

The first 4 stations on my list are foreign language stations. The first English station is KSBW at 115 miles away but actually comes in fine.

The first local station I care about in the list is KXTV which shows a noise margin of only 4.9 dB. My weakest local station I care about is KSPX with a noise margin -8.8 dB. Fortunately TV Fool under-predicts the signal strengths and I can receive all my local stations. But an antenna at my house receives none of my local stations. In order to receive my local stations I have the antenna shown in my avatar 400' away up my hill on a 70' tower. Anything less doesn't work.

Chuck
post #15084 of 16027
wow that's pretty bad..
post #15085 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

wow that's pretty bad..

Hi,

Actually it's pretty wonderful. YMMV

Some of us like to live in the mountains, I live in Silicon Valley (San Jose Ca area) but the best times of my life have been riding a motorcycle close to wilderness to the east of where he lives.

I found the shadow of his tower using google earth. That's no longer possible as they changed their photos.


Transfer Chuck's Lat.and Lon. from his TVFool to:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

and then zoom out.

I wish I was there all the time.

SHF
post #15086 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

I found the shadow of his tower using google earth. That's no longer possible as they changed their photos.

I just went to Google Earth and they have brand new high resolution imagery for my area - 6/10/2012. First hi-res imagery. I can see the shadows of both towers and the antennas on the 72' tower. I can see the shadows of the TV antennas on the 55' tower but I can't see the antennas themselves. Bad contrast. I can see the the two coax runs on the ground. I can see where I was in the middle of weed whacking at that date. The smallest details I can make out are about 6". Looks like the image was taken about 12 noon PDT judging by the position of the shadows.

Chuck
post #15087 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I just went to Google Earth and they have brand new high resolution imagery for my area - 6/10/2012. First hi-res imagery. I can see the shadows of both towers and the antennas on the 72' tower. I can see the shadows of the TV antennas on the 55' tower but I can't see the antennas themselves. Bad contrast. I can see the the two coax runs on the ground. I can see where I was in the middle of weed whacking at that date. The smallest details I can make out are about 6". Looks like the image was taken about 12 noon PDT judging by the position of the shadows.
Chuck

Hi,

I will have to take the time to look at your location again.

EDIT: There sure is a big increase in resolution. HINT: click on the date shown at the bottom and you can see previous images. Finding your towers this time was a breeze.

I looked at my location, in 1948 all there were was fruit trees.

What you report means that we soon will be able to see what the (No Such Agency or Never Say Anything) can see.

One thing I learned, you cannot find anything without knowing where it is. I searched for several hours trying to find the prison near Susanville. No luck at all. Then I remembered the name and looked it up on the web. I found it then, way out of town.

Perhaps it will be normal for this list to look at antennas on peoples roofs to help them in the future.

SHF
Edited by SFischer1 - 8/2/12 at 2:09pm
post #15088 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

You don't know how bad bad can be. smile.gif
Take a look at my TV Fool Results:
Chuck

I was surprised to see that there are no Sutro Tower or Mt. San Bruno stations on your TV Fool list. You're receiving stations below the -32 dB NM! Wow!

Larry
post #15089 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

I was surprised to see that there are no Sutro Tower or Mt. San Bruno stations on your TV Fool list. You're receiving stations below the -32 dB NM! Wow!
Larry

My TV Fool results for stations shown as gray (NM < 0 dB) are very inaccurate. Some stations I receive all the time and others I have never received under any conditions.

If you click on Only Digital you can get KGO 7 to show up at NM -32 dB. It should be around -8 dB. It shows KAIL 7 Fresno at -14 dB which I rarely receive and KRNV 7 Reno at -24 dB which I've never seen.

Way down the list is KSTS on 49 at -28 dB yet I receive that essentially 100%.

I can't make any sense out of it.

Chuck
post #15090 of 16027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post


EDIT: There sure is a big increase in resolution. HINT: click on the date shown at the bottom and you can see previous images. Finding your towers this time was a breeze.
I looked at my location, in 1948 all there were was fruit trees.

There's only an aerial photo from 1998 and it doesn't look that much different around here except for more homes. The vegetation is mostly unchanged.

I looked at where I lived in Sunnyvale on the 1948 photo and my old house was there but there weren't many roads.... like no Central Expressway. :-)

Chuck
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