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The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 519

post #15541 of 16070
Scott:
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwood2 View Post

I am setting up a HDTV antenna system for my Mother-in-law.
What does the tvfool report for your mother-in-law look like? Please post it so that we are better able to help you.

Enter her location info here for a report:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Copy and paste in your next post the bold type link near the top of the report.
Quote:
3. I also purchase some Craig HD tuner boxes. Any thoughts on this brand. They were cheap but maybe they are not very good?
Is it the CVD508?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1172673/craig-cvd508-cecb
Edited by rabbit73 - 9/24/13 at 12:01pm
post #15542 of 16070
Quote:
Originally Posted by jam-h View Post

I am really just trying to understand conceptually why the One Channel signal strength/quality number at the output goes down more when the All-Channel antenna input also is connected, than when it isn't. (I know what curiosity did to the cat...)

Thanks again.

I went through the exact same scenario with the Tin Lee AC-7 a few years ago. I was trying to add in a distant RF 23 to the full roster of strong local stations. I would connect the channel 23 antenna to the AC-7 first and see almost no drop in signal quality but as soon as I connected the local channels antenna the signal would drop at least 20 points, to the point of occasional drop-outs. I called and spoke to the very knowledgeable technician there in Canada, and he felt that a local RF 25 was overpowering my much weaker channel 23. He suggested another filter to greatly reduce the RF 25 signal as I was not interested in the programming anyway. I never ordered it though. I did find that if I turned my local antenna away from the towers, thus reducing their strength it would help and not lower the distant 23 signal as much. However that of course, weakened the less powerful locals to the point of causing problems.
post #15543 of 16070
It does make some sense that there could be overload in play when the main antenna pointed at most of the stations is connected. If those stations are really that strong then adding a 10dB attenuator to the All Channel port would probably solve the problem.

Jam-h - How about posting a link to your TVFool report so we could look at your total situation?

This makes a case for a rotor and a highly directional antenna in situations where you need to reject strong stations in order to receive weaker ones.
post #15544 of 16070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

If those stations are really that strong then adding a 10dB attenuator to the All Channel port would probably solve the problem.

This makes a case for a rotor and a highly directional antenna in situations where you need to reject strong stations in order to receive weaker ones.

I had to put in 18 db of attenuation to help the situation at all. Of course, that caused break-ups on my weakest local station. I went the A/B switch route.
post #15545 of 16070
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post

Scott:
What does the tvfool report for your mother-in-law look like? Please post it so that we are better able to help you.

Enter her location info here for a report:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Copy and paste in your next post the bold type link near the top of the report.
Is it the CVD508?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1172673/craig-cvd508-cecb

Thx for the reply. Here is the report

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae4bb5d855e1


The tv tuner box I think is the 508. I did not read everything about it but there seemed to be many that did not like it.

Thx again
post #15546 of 16070
Scott:

Thanks for the tvfool report. Many of your stations are strong, but are 1 and 2Edge which means that the terrain between the transmitters and your location make the reception less reliable.

The 4x4s would work, but I would prefer to use a metal tv mast supported by the eaves.

The CS2 antenna is primarily a UHF antenna which is OK for all of the main network stations except for WJBK Fox on VHF-high channel 7.

Combining two CS2s might be more trouble than it's worth. If you really need a little more gain then I would use a DB4e.

I would first make a temporary setup outside with one antenna aimed at about 75 degrees magnetic and one tv to see what you get. For a permanent installation the coax should be grounded with a grounding block for safety; the mast should also be grounded if you want to comply with the NEC guidelines.

Yes, that box is not one of the better ones like the Zenith DTT900. Is her tv an old analog set without a digital tuner which needs a digital to analog box?
Edited by rabbit73 - 9/26/13 at 5:01pm
post #15547 of 16070
Thx for the suggestions. I think the 1 antenna idea to try it out is a good one. Easy to do.

Thx
post #15548 of 16070
Re: Signal Loss In A Single Channel Injector/Jointenna

Sorry for the delayed reply - was away for a couple of days. Thanks for the great observations.

Interesting that this has come up before as an overload problem. I'd have thought things in the AC-7 would be isolated somehow.

Yes the locals are relatively strong. The closest channels, RF 18 and 24, are only a little filtered from the Ch. 21 input, and are not filtered from the All-Channel input - interestingly they don't seem to suffer obviously (multipath etc) when combined.

So far the reception remains OK at these levels (and nice weather). If it was for me, I'd have just used an A-B switch or connected the Ch 21 antenna to a second (dedicated) tuner. But I have to keep this installation simple for the user.

PS here's the requested report if interested.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aeb7de21a59c
post #15549 of 16070
jam-h: Being in the New York City area does not help your situation with so many stations on the air. At least I was on the edge of El Paso trying to get a station from New Mexico. If the viewer is that interested in the programming on RF 21 they probably would not want to filter out 24 and it is the most likely culprit being stronger than 18. I would certainly try some attenuation on the all channel antenna to see if it may help increase the 21 signal without any detrimental effects. Other than that, you may have to educate the user about A/B switches or the input button on the remote control. My 90 year old Mother could do both.
post #15550 of 16070

OK, so I'm having issues with my antennae set up.  Here are the details.

 

TV Fool info:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae735f254a3c

 

Hardware:

I have inherited the antenna I'm using as it was already installed in the house I'm renting.  Here's a pic.  Not sure what type it is, but I can guarantee it was the cheapest one the purchaser could find as he is the frugalest person I've ever met.

I've also got an RCA TVPRAMP1R amplifier and an RCA DH24SPF 2 way 2.4ghz splitter (splitter not pictured)

One lead off the splitter runs about 30 feet to my bedroom TV.

The other lead runs about 100 feet to the amp power injector then to my TiVO box.

 

As you can see, it appears as though I should be receiving most of the common channels fairly well as indicated by the TVFool report.

My issue is that I can receive FOX very well (channel 11), CBS is OK (channel 2) as is NBC (channel 4).

However, ABC is completely crap.  My bedroom TV didn't even recognize it when scanning, and my TiVO found it but never gets a signal.  It appears as though I should get it because it is the same Azimuth setting and roughly the same Distance as the channels I do get.

The only piece of hardware I haven't spent any time researching or installing is the antennae.  There are no markings or brand name on it.  Is there a way to tell what kind it is, if it's a decent unit, if it's UHF or VHF, etc?  Or should I just replace it and be done?

 

Thanks.

post #15551 of 16070
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddylan View Post

OK, so I'm having issues with my antennae set up.  Here are the details.

TV Fool info:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46ae735f254a3c

Hardware:
I have inherited the antenna I'm using as it was already installed in the house I'm renting.  Here's a pic.  Not sure what type it is, but I can guarantee it was the cheapest one the purchaser could find as he is the frugalest person I've ever met.


I've also got an RCA TVPRAMP1R amplifier and an RCA DH24SPF 2 way 2.4ghz splitter (splitter not pictured)
One lead off the splitter runs about 30 feet to my bedroom TV.
The other lead runs about 100 feet to the amp power injector then to my TiVO box.

As you can see, it appears as though I should be receiving most of the common channels fairly well as indicated by the TVFool report.
My issue is that I can receive FOX very well (channel 11), CBS is OK (channel 2) as is NBC (channel 4).
However, ABC is completely crap.  My bedroom TV didn't even recognize it when scanning, and my TiVO found it but never gets a signal.  It appears as though I should get it because it is the same Azimuth setting and roughly the same Distance as the channels I do get.
The only piece of hardware I haven't spent any time researching or installing is the antennae.  There are no markings or brand name on it.  Is there a way to tell what kind it is, if it's a decent unit, if it's UHF or VHF, etc?  Or should I just replace it and be done?

Thanks.

Looks like you need an UHF/VHF Hi antenna, ABC is VHF Hi in your area. I would get a new antenna and even put it high & outside for the best reception...
post #15552 of 16070
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetvEE View Post


Looks like you need an UHF/VHF Hi antenna, ABC is VHF Hi in your area. I would get a new antenna and even put it high & outside for the best reception...

 

Thank you for your input.

Sadly I can't put the antennae outside.  If I owned the house I would do it and probably have to argue with the HOA, but since I'm a renter I can't exactly take them on myself.

Any suggestion on which antennae I should use?  I've got an almost-brand-new ClearStream 2V, would that be a better option?

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream-C2-VHF-Long-Range-Combo-Complete.html

 

Or should I stick with a similar style to the one that's already there?  Or should I install both and put the existing one on the UHF input and the new one on the VHF side?

post #15553 of 16070
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddylan View Post

Thank you for your input.
Sadly I can't put the antennae outside.  If I owned the house I would do it and probably have to argue with the HOA, but since I'm a renter I can't exactly take them on myself.

Is this just an HOA issue or a landlord issue? The HOA cannot tell you that you can't have an outside antenna for TV. Point them here and tell them to go pound sand.

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule

Quote:
Any suggestion on which antennae I should use?  I've got an almost-brand-new ClearStream 2V, would that be a better option?

I looked at your TVFool report and IMO anything less than a good sized outdoor antenna that clears all the local ground clutter (buildings and trees) isn't going to give you reliable reception. Messing around with attic antennas in your situation is likely to be a waste of time and money.

I'd look at the Winegard HD7698P or separate high gain VHF and UHF antennas.
post #15554 of 16070

The issue is more of a landlord issue, not the HOA.  Like I had mentioned, if I owned the house I would put up the antennae and go to battle with the HOA.  But since the legal fight would be with the homeowner and the association, I cannot involve him whatsoever.  Sucks to be a renter, but I'll deal with it for now.

Thanks for the recommendation on the Winegard, it's a bit pricey but I'll look into it.  I'm just trying to get the best signal in this crappy situation.  I may put up the ClearStream 2V and see if that's any better with the amp.  Can't hurt to try.

post #15555 of 16070
Re: Signal Loss In A Single Channel Injector/Jointenna - final

Thanks to all. (Always impressed with the read of the situation and location report.) Working so far, but will later try the recommendations/education to optimize. Thanks again.
jam-h
post #15556 of 16070
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddylan View Post
 

The issue is more of a landlord issue, not the HOA.  Like I had mentioned, if I owned the house I would put up the antennae and go to battle with the HOA.  But since the legal fight would be with the homeowner and the association, I cannot involve him whatsoever.  Sucks to be a renter, but I'll deal with it for now.

Thanks for the recommendation on the Winegard, it's a bit pricey but I'll look into it.  I'm just trying to get the best signal in this crappy situation.  I may put up the ClearStream 2V and see if that's any better with the amp.  Can't hurt to try.

 

You already own the 2V? Put that thing up then! It's a great antenna. I mounted mine in my attic for aesthetic reasons, I'm about 40 miles from the towers and it picks up everything just fine.

post #15557 of 16070
lorddlan,

Two things in particular: 1) Your RCA splitter may not be properly passing power from the injector to the pre-amp, depending on it's internal construction. It's markings suggest that the power-pass may be diode steered and are of the wrong polarity to pass power for an antenna pre-amp. If in doubt, set it up as either a single straight connection for testing or move the injector just upstream of the splitter. 2) The antenna pictured is a very very basic all-channel antenna, probably good for up to 20-25 miles under easy conditions. Obviously, it's not enough for your situation.

Since you've already got the C2V, give it a try. It's a great performer given its very small size. It's not a substitute for a 7698, but it's a fair start.
post #15558 of 16070
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddylan View Post

Thank you for your input.
Sadly I can't put the antennae outside.  If I owned the house I would do it and probably have to argue with the HOA, but since I'm a renter I can't exactly take them on myself.
Any suggestion on which antennae I should use?  I've got an almost-brand-new ClearStream 2V, would that be a better option?
http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream-C2-VHF-Long-Range-Combo-Complete.html

Or should I stick with a similar style to the one that's already there?  Or should I install both and put the existing one on the UHF input and the new one on the VHF side?

I would keep it as simple as possible to test, use the c2 by itself straight to the TV or tivo and see what you get.
post #15559 of 16070
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

lorddlan,

Two things in particular: 1) Your RCA splitter may not be properly passing power from the injector to the pre-amp, depending on it's internal construction. It's markings suggest that the power-pass may be diode steered and are of the wrong polarity to pass power for an antenna pre-amp. If in doubt, set it up as either a single straight connection for testing or move the injector just upstream of the splitter. 2) The antenna pictured is a very very basic all-channel antenna, probably good for up to 20-25 miles under easy conditions. Obviously, it's not enough for your situation.

Since you've already got the C2V, give it a try. It's a great performer given its very small size. It's not a substitute for a 7698, but it's a fair start.

 

The splitter I purchased specifically said it was good for using inline with a pre-amp power injector, so I assume it is not causing any issues.  I will give the 2V a try and let you guys know.  Thanks for your help guys (and girls if any).

post #15560 of 16070
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddylan View Post

The splitter I purchased specifically said it was good for using inline with a pre-amp power injector, so I assume it is not causing any issues.  I will give the 2V a try and let you guys know.  Thanks for your help guys (and girls if any).

Some "power passing splitters" pass power on both legs whereas most pass it on only one leg. if you are using a power passing splitter that passes power on just one leg, you need to make sure that your power path is on that leg. On the label, it will be denoted by a line drawn from the common port to the power passing port. On the other hand, if you have a splitter that passes power on all ports, then it is always possible that the connection to the other port is shorting out the power.

Some splitters that pass power on all ports are "diode protected" or "diode steered", so those cannot be shorted out by an extraneous resistive load, but if you have such a splitter, the diode schematic symbol will ordinarily be drawn on the signal path lines on the label.
Edited by AntAltMike - 10/2/13 at 9:57pm
post #15561 of 16070
The splitter goes between the power supply and the preamp, and it is best to use one with one port power pass, indicated by the red line. The power port goes to the power supply. And it is recommended to use a DC voltage block on the other port to prevent shorting out or interference. Denny's Antenna site has good diagram on how to install preamp.
post #15562 of 16070
Quote:
The splitter I purchased specifically said it was good for using inline with a pre-amp power injector, so I assume it is not causing any issues.

Do not assume such. Eliminate any question by following advice.

I has been my experience that such splitters are diode steered for use with sat systems.
post #15563 of 16070
I use a 3-way Holland splitter with one port power pass, and 2 DC voltage blocks, between power supply and preamp. Works great, no problem.
post #15564 of 16070
Holland makes several varieties of power-passing splitters, some are single port passive, others are all-port passive. Some are specified for broadband use, others are for satellite use. All the sat-use ones use diode steering.
Edited by ProjectSHO89 - 10/2/13 at 5:11am
post #15565 of 16070
Per Holland Spec Sheet, ONLY the "D" suffix Satellite RF Splitter/Combiner Passives are Diode Steered:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Passives-Satellite_Broadband-Splitters.pdf

And other than Radio Shack's website, I've NEVER seen a device MARKED as "Diode Steered" stocked at my Home Supply stores, e.g RCA, Philips, CE, Monster Cable, et. al.
Edited by holl_ands - 10/2/13 at 9:58am
post #15566 of 16070
That's the "problem". The ones that are marked as "DC PASS" might or might not have diodes. I have an Ideal 4-port splitter from HD that exhibits this exact condition. No mention of diodes, but the pass through clearly has them when tested.

I suspect that the ones labeled for use with satellite are going to be the ones with diodes.
post #15567 of 16070
The term, "Diode Steered" is commonly used in commercial splitter product descriptions, like on this Blonder Tongue catalog page:
http://www.multicominc.com/active/comparison/splitters/satellite/lpd_splitters.pdf ,

...and on this Holland Electronics catalog page:
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/catalog.php?product_id=HR-S-Series-Satellite-Splitters.

Update, at October 3, 2:00 PM. I just serviced a residential antenna installation that combined two off-air antennas and used an MCR splitter with the part number TG-202D, and it had the term Diode Steered printed on its label. http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=8031&d=1142979073

A lot of commercial distributors are desperate enough for sales that they now sell in small quantities, so any hobbyist that calls a commercial distributor and gets to talk with a sales rep can expect to hear them so-described.

None of the loose, cable/broadcast frequency splitters I have on my truck actually say in English that they do or do not pass power. They just use lines drawn on the labels to depict the powering path. I don't know if I've actually seen diode-protected or diode steered splitters that were limited to cable.broadcast frequency band. There are still a lot of old european distribution splitters rated for 450 to 1,750 MHz that are available cheap that pass power on all ports but are not diode protected. They are all larger than most domestic splitters and have gold finishes but no brand names. Funny thing is, many of the ones rated for 450 to 1,750 MHz severely choke out channels VHF 4 and cable 16, which are harmonics of one another, whereas the ones that say 900 - 2,150 MHz sweep out just fine over the entire cable/broadcast TV band.

In the 1990s, almost none of the all ports power passing satellite frequency (L-band cable) splitters were diode protected or steered. In that era, they were commonly used in master antenna system headends where multiple Videocipher receivers were connected to dedicated LNBs, and where the receivers were the sole source of LNB powering. The european domestic satellite systems of that era with which I was familiar used stacking LNBs, so voltage switching was not necessary to make the full L-band spectrum simultaneously available to the multiple, connected receivers.

I had one, two-way diode steered splitter where the diodes were deliberately going the "other" way. I used to actually remember why I was carrying it around. I think there might have been some old C-band stuff from the late 1980s that used a negative voltage on a center conductor.
Edited by AntAltMike - 10/7/13 at 8:33am
post #15568 of 16070
hey everyone...havent' used an antenna in about 10 years. I live in San Francisco.

here are my results

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d46aee3f05958c2

I'm gonig to Target in a bit to look for an indoor antenna... i'll keep the receipt, but if anyone has any recommendations, please let me know...thankx.
post #15569 of 16070
You should not have any problems with those huge signals. Just make sure you don't buy anything with an amplifier in it. Unless you have some multipath issues a paperclip in the antenna connector will work. smile.gif
post #15570 of 16070
Look for something that resembles a loop and a set of rabbit ears. Do not overpay for slick marketing. No amp as Chuck already mentioned.

Put the antenna in front of a window that faces Sutro for best results.
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