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The Official AVS Antenna and Related Hardware Topic! - Page 526

post #15751 of 16013
Quote:
I'm looking to install an attic antenna as my HOA does not allow outdoor antennas
Welcome to the forums. First off you need to do a search and find out your rights to do so. Then you need to present that to them, saying sorry, but yes I can.
This subject seems to come up a few times a month here. They can't stop you from doing so.
post #15752 of 16013
Thanks for the quick reply. is an outdoor antenna necessary? aside from the hassle of dealing with the HOA i would prefer to keep it out of sight. any way to get FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC and PBS from an attic setup?
post #15753 of 16013
Quote:
my HOA does not allow outdoor antennas.

See the FCC OTARD rules. Your HOA can likely go pound sand.



The correct question to ask is what station or stations do you want to receive?
post #15754 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
 
Quote:
my HOA does not allow outdoor antennas.

See the FCC OTARD rules. Your HOA can likely go pound sand.



The correct question to ask is what station or stations do you want to receive?

Hi,

 

Can you put up an antenna on your neighbors house without permission?

 

The HOA will most likely work with you, remember that the HOA is YOU also, but it is best to be a good neighbor.

 

When I was told that a metal roof was to be installed it took the HOA manager 10 seconds to start to make a copy of an approved antenna installation. It comes down to who owns what, I do not own where my antenna is attached.

 

 http://www.avsforum.com/g/i/126095/channel-master-cm4228hd-clear-picture/

 


 

But the correct question needs to be asked first, I had VHF Lo/Hi and UHF antennas in my attic for ~ forty years that were working just fine.

 

SHF


Edited by SFischer1 - 1/10/14 at 3:40pm
post #15755 of 16013
I'm in the Brownsville TN area and this is my TVFool link--

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94360c6c47a8

I live just off the court square in an older neighbourhood. No tall buildings , mountains or hills nearby but there are some old growth trees about. I'm planning on attaching the antenna to my Direct TV dish mast. The cable run on that is about a 100 feet and it will connect to a Panasonic ZT60. I think that is everything needed for starters (hopefully). Any advice is appreciated.
post #15756 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

See the FCC OTARD rules.

The CC&R for my son's condo defines the roof over his head as a common area so the HOA can ban outdoor antenna. This is the exception to the OTARD rules. If the CC&R does not call the roof a common area, then yes, he can mount an antenna up there.
post #15757 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

See the FCC OTARD rules.

The CC&R for my son's condo defines the roof over his head as a common area so the HOA can ban outdoor antenna. This is the exception to the OTARD rules. If the CC&R does not call the roof a common area, then yes, he can mount an antenna up there.

Hi,

 

Our Board of Directors first allowed satellite dishes to be attached to the fascia board and then OTA antennas when the metal roofs started to be installed.

 

This placement was chosen so as to not allow any possibility of roof leaks.

 

After forty years we have a big problem with trees lifting the sidewalks thus many big trees are being removed. The tree in the common area was an replacement for one that was lifting my sidewalk and I planted two that were similar in name shown in the picture.

 

It's all about limiting costs in the future.

 

But there are HOA's that say, FCC rules, we don't need any stinking FCC rules. YMMV They usually win, you can't fight city hall.

 

SHF

post #15758 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcurry85 View Post

Thanks for the quick reply. is an outdoor antenna necessary? aside from the hassle of dealing with the HOA i would prefer to keep it out of sight. any way to get FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC and PBS from an attic setup?

If there's a CO local OTA thread that might be more helpful for you. Otherwise can you identify by callsign exactly which stations you're most interested in? I see a bunch of low power stations with strong signals but no network affiliations. Are those repeaters for network stations? I could research all that but it's easier to ask you. smile.gif

If you need to receive those stations in yellow you'll likely need an outdoor antenna with a rotor since you have stations in all sorts of directions.
post #15759 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

The CC&R for my son's condo defines the roof over his head as a common area so the HOA can ban outdoor antenna. This is the exception to the OTARD rules. If the CC&R does not call the roof a common area, then yes, he can mount an antenna up there.

How do we know jcurry85 lives in a condo? He hasn't said that. Single family houses have HOA's too.

jcurry85 - What do you live in?
post #15760 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by merchantord View Post

I'm in the Brownsville TN area and this is my TVFool link--

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94360c6c47a8

I live just off the court square in an older neighbourhood. No tall buildings , mountains or hills nearby but there are some old growth trees about. I'm planning on attaching the antenna to my Direct TV dish mast. The cable run on that is about a 100 feet and it will connect to a Panasonic ZT60. I think that is everything needed for starters (hopefully). Any advice is appreciated.

I wouldn't skimp on the antenna since your stations are 1 edge, at a moderate distance and of average strength. You have one station on low VHF, one on high VHF and a bunch on UHF. You need an antenna to cover all those bands. I doubt the antenna you need can be supported on a Direct TV mast.
post #15761 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

How do we know jcurry85 lives in a condo? He hasn't said that. Single family houses have HOA's too.

jcurry85 - What do you live in?

I live in a single family home. No common areas. Sounds like I should be allowed to put on up on the roof with a little convincing. looks like the attic won't be an option for me?
post #15762 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcurry85 View Post

I live in a single family home. No common areas. Sounds like I should be allowed to put on up on the roof with a little convincing. looks like the attic won't be an option for me?

Show the HOA this:

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule

You can put up pretty much what you need to receive the stations.

I looked more carefully at the stations in your list. Your strongest stations look like a bunch of irrelevant low power stations. Your network stations are all at 200 degrees and of moderate signal strength. Attic antenna? Maybe but with 1 edge stations at 55 miles I'd recommend this as high as you can get it to clear any local building and vegetation:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7698p&d=winegard-hd-7698p-platinum-series-high-definition-vhf%2Fuhf-tv-antenna-(hd7698p)

This preamp would be helpful:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=lna-200
post #15763 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Happy New Year to you, too!

I think you need an antenna with more gain. The ANT751 is okay for the immediate area, but KPXM Ion 41 is in the yellow zone, plus it is 2 edge, which means that there are two hills or ridges between you and their transmitter. I recommend the Channel Master CM4228. It has has good gain all across the UHF band. KMSP channel 9 is your only VHF channel but it's strong enough that I think the CM4228 will pick it up okay. The 4228 has a wide pick up area so it should cover the span from 326 to 5 degrees where your signals come from. You might need to experiment to find the best direction for best overall reception.

I use the 4228 and have been very happy with the results. It pulls in stations that are 60 to 65 miles away with no problem.

Larry
SF

Hi Larry,

I've connected the CM 4228HD in the attic and generally speaking it has dramatically improved the reception, except I am not getting KMSP 9, which is the VHF channel mentioned as possibly being a problem in your above response to my original post. That transmitter is only about 18 miles away, but is Edge1 reception. I'll keep tinkering with it but may have to somehow combine this antenna with the ANT 751 to get that KMSP 9. Any ideas on what I might use to combine those two antennas? The preamp I got actually made reception worse, so I've taken that out of the loop.

No luck getting ION 41 48 miles away either, but I knew that would be hard inside the attic. I may experiment with the antenna outside come spring, but I am not desperate enough for that channel to climb on the snowy, icy roof in frigid temps!
post #15764 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I wouldn't skimp on the antenna since your stations are 1 edge, at a moderate distance and of average strength. You have one station on low VHF, one on high VHF and a bunch on UHF. You need an antenna to cover all those bands. I doubt the antenna you need can be supported on a Direct TV mast.

Thanks for responding Calveras. Can you recommend an antenna and the best way to mount it?
post #15765 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by merchantord View Post

Thanks for responding Calveras. Can you recommend an antenna and the best way to mount it?

You'll need something like this:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7084&d=winegard-hd-7084p-high-defintion-vhf%2Fuhf%2Ffm-tv-antenna-(hd7084p)

There are not a lot of choices for channel 2 - 51 antennas anymore.

You could use a chimney mount for up to about 10'. Higher than that will require a tower or push-up mast.
post #15766 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

You'll need something like this:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7084&d=winegard-hd-7084p-high-defintion-vhf%2Fuhf%2Ffm-tv-antenna-(hd7084p)

There are not a lot of choices for channel 2 - 51 antennas anymore.

You could use a chimney mount for up to about 10'. Higher than that will require a tower or push-up mast.
Yes indeed there are now fewer of those large all band antennas. Recently Channel Master has discontinued another one of their legacy antenna designs, the CM-3671 UHF/VHF fringe antenna. But they still offer the 3020, and Winegard still makes the 8200. For now. And there are some Antennacraft versions also.
post #15767 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanesian View Post

Hi Larry,

I've connected the CM 4228HD in the attic and generally speaking it has dramatically improved the reception, except I am not getting KMSP 9, which is the VHF channel mentioned as possibly being a problem in your above response to my original post. That transmitter is only about 18 miles away, but is Edge1 reception. I'll keep tinkering with it but may have to somehow combine this antenna with the ANT 751 to get that KMSP 9. Any ideas on what I might use to combine those two antennas? The preamp I got actually made reception worse, so I've taken that out of the loop.

No luck getting ION 41 48 miles away either, but I knew that would be hard inside the attic. I may experiment with the antenna outside come spring, but I am not desperate enough for that channel to climb on the snowy, icy roof in frigid temps!

I'm happy to hear that the CM4228 worked well. You might try connecting the 4228 and the ANT 751 together using a spitter hooked up backward.... the two antennas in, one feed out. You can connect them together in the attic using short pieces of coax and use the existing coax to the TV. Most of the time two antennas connected this way makes some stations better and some stations worse because the signals from the two antennas are fighting each other, adding in some cases, subtracting in others. If it works, you're in good shape. If that doesn't work, go to Radio Shack and get an A-B switch. Connect one antenna to each side and then you can select the antenna that works best for the channel you want to watch. You'll, of course, have to run to coaxes from the attic to the switch by the TV.

Sorry that the 4228 doesn't pull in ION 41 for you. Maybe it will if you get it higher. Good luck!

Larry
SF
post #15768 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanesian View Post

Hi Larry,

I'll keep tinkering with it but may have to somehow combine this antenna with the ANT 751 to get that KMSP 9. Any ideas
Combine the 2 antennas with a UVSJ. A conventional splitter is not indicated here.

Your local Radio Shack may carry them.
post #15769 of 16013
Radio Shack does indeed carry a UVSJ, catalog number 15-2586, around 15 bucks.

If you order a UVSJ online, you're pay around $3 bucks plus shipping, so it might end up not much different in price.
post #15770 of 16013
Thanks for all the feedback guys it was very helpful. I did some additional local research and found that people were using the clearstream 2v with good results. I purchased one from Best Buy (easy to return if it didn't work out). Here is an outline of how I set it up:

I live in a two story house with cable runs from each of the 4 bedrooms upstairs running through the attic down to a central point in the basement. I spliced into one of the Coax cables from one of the bedrooms using a two way splitter (one out feeds the bedroom the other to the basement) in the attic. The antenna was assembled and mounted in the attic and pointed SSW. I checked the reception in the bedroom (<20ft of cable run) and did a channel scan. I picked up all of the channels I was looking for plus a ton that I didn't really care about. the challenge is coming when I try to get a signal in our living room. by the time the signal goes through the splitter, across the attic, down to the basement and back over to the living room the signal is gone. the distance is probably 100ft or so (60 from the splitter to the basement/40 to the living room).

I've got a couple of fixes in mind but please let me know your recommendations. I have no available power in the attic so this may be a limiting factor?

Possibility 1)
hook up http://www.amazon.com/Bi-Directional-Amplifier-Splitter-Booster-Passive/dp/B000WDR94U/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1389584167&sr=1-1&keywords=distribution+amplifier+coax and try to amplify the signal in the basement and distribute to 5 cable outlets.

Possibility 2)
Use http://www.amazon.com/Bi-Directional-Amplifier-Splitter-Booster-Passive/dp/B001BMKNZI/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1389584167&sr=1-7&keywords=distribution+amplifier+coax in place of the splitter in the attic. I would need to draw power from somewhere so I'd need to use the coax running to the bedroom (this is OK as there is no TV in there currently)

Possibility 3)
Your suggestions?

Am I on track or totally off base? option 2 seems like the best route but is there a way to not sacrifice the line to the bedroom? Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks!
post #15771 of 16013
Pretty amazing that the C2V would pick up everything out of Denver including your VHF stations! Not bad for a simple dipole.
Quote:
Possibility 3)
Your suggestions?

Go with the 1-port amplifier CM3410(http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM-3410-Distribution-Amplifier/dp/B001FY0B90/ref=pd_sim_e_6) and add the power inserter for remote operation down in the basement. http://www.amazon.com/PCT-Inserter-MPI-1G-Remote-Amplifers/dp/B005Y12UH6/ref=pd_sim_e_2 The CM distribution amps are the same as the pct amps except for labeling and packaging.

The inserter will allow you to hook up the distribution amp as if it were a standard remotely powered pre-amplifier. You will amplify the signals at the antenna in the attic, send that to the basement distribution splitter, then distribute to all outlets from the basement.
post #15772 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Rules View Post

Combine the 2 antennas with a UVSJ. A conventional splitter is not indicated here.

Your local Radio Shack may carry them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

Radio Shack does indeed carry a UVSJ, catalog number 15-2586, around 15 bucks.

If you order a UVSJ online, you're pay around $3 bucks plus shipping, so it might end up not much different in price.

Well, I tried using both my preamp and the Radio Shack UVSJ, and neither worked well at all. Using the UVSJ I fed the CM 4228 into the UHF and the ANT 751 into the VHF using identical length RG6, and I couldn't get ANY channels. So, I've gone back to the CM 4228 alone and moved it higher in the attic. Still not getting the Hi VHF station 9, and the other Hi VHF 11 is inconsistent now too. I had hoped this antenna would do better on hi VHF stations within 20 miles. Unless I am doing something wrong I think I'll have to wait for the spring thaw to experiment with the CM 4228 outside on the roof.
post #15773 of 16013
Quote:
Using the UVSJ I fed the CM 4228 into the UHF and the ANT 751 into the VHF using identical length RG6, and I couldn't get ANY channels.

That would suggest that the UVSJ or the cabling is defective.

Equal cable length doesn't matter in this application.
post #15774 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

That would suggest that the UVSJ or the cabling is defective.

Equal cable length doesn't matter in this application.

Thank you for that response! Of the two possibilities you mention, the cabling seemed much more likely to be suspect, as it included several DIY compression connectors on my RG6 quad, and it as the first time I had done those. So I went back to research my compression methodology and realized I had unknowingly removed the second (inner) layer of foil wrap. So I went back and removed those connectors and did them again the RIGHT way, and rescanned and

BAM!

60+ channels (as opposed to 7 previously) including the problematic hi VHF channels 9 and 11 AND the elusive, 48 mile distant ION 41 which I had given up ever getting without putting the antenna on the roof rather than in the attic! biggrin.gif. And only using the CM 4228HD. Took the ANT 751 back out first to see if the cabling alone would do it, and clearly it did!

All the channels come in rock solid - in fact I now have probably twice as many channels as we ever got with Basic cable from Comcast. I probably won't watch a number of these channels, including a bunch of shopping channels and some that appear to be duplicates, but I get everything I hoped for ... and more!

So thanks for the input and feedback/suggestions from everyone here! I obviously couldn't have done it without you. I was wondering if I should just give up, and in my case at least, found it was as simple as poorly done compression connectors! So to those struggling: don't give up!

Off now to enjoy my scads of free TV! Cheers all!
Edited by hanesian - 1/15/14 at 12:24pm
post #15775 of 16013
I always buy the prefitted cable because those connectors always cause me problems and cancel out the signal. There is the foil wrap, copper braiding, and white insulation. You have to be very careful and precise. And I never get it right. So I just get the 25 foot, 6 foot, or whatever length I need.
post #15776 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post

I always buy the prefitted cable because those connectors always cause me problems and cancel out the signal. There is the foil wrap, copper braiding, and white insulation. You have to be very careful and precise. And I never get it right. So I just get the 25 foot, 6 foot, or whatever length I need.

That would make sense in many situations. In my case, I already owned a half used roll of RG6 quad from a previous project and, more importantly, I had to pull cable from the attic to the basement including going through several walls. Pretty hard to fish cable through walls with connectors attached, and hard to work with pre-determined cable lengths in cases like that too, especially when your cable run turns out to be 100+ feet like mine was. But in more straight forward situations the store bought version saves time and hassle.

Having said that, once you have the tools and get the hang of doing the connectors it really is very easy, so I would not avoid it for that reason. If I can do it, anyone can. redface.gif
post #15777 of 16013
Alright guys, back again. I ordered the amp and power inserter from amazon as ProjectSHO89 suggested but it appears a weak signal may not have been the issue. I am now thinking the problems are the RG6 connections. after I failed to get a signal to my TV in the living room by adding the amp I went down to the basement where the coax cables all meet. The setup goes Antenna ---> Amp ---> RG6 down to basement ---> Power inserter ---> TV. (I'm not including any of the other rooms at the moment, just the main living room TV)

When the cable running to a TV is screwed into the power inserter (or a splitter or a coupler) the signal does not go through but if I remove the coupler/splitter/power inserter and touch center conductor to center conductor the picture shows up just fine. I am also able to get a signal to the tv by touching the center conductor from the TV to the outside threads on the splitter/coupler. I figured I must have messed something up when I installed the compression fittings so I re-did them, twice, on both ends of the cable running between the basement and Amplifier.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?
post #15778 of 16013
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcurry85 View Post

Alright guys, back again. I ordered the amp and power inserter from amazon as ProjectSHO89 suggested but it appears a weak signal may not have been the issue. I am now thinking the problems are the RG6 connections. after I failed to get a signal to my TV in the living room by adding the amp I went down to the basement where the coax cables all meet. The setup goes Antenna ---> Amp ---> RG6 down to basement ---> Power inserter ---> TV. (I'm not including any of the other rooms at the moment, just the main living room TV)

When the cable running to a TV is screwed into the power inserter (or a splitter or a coupler) the signal does not go through but if I remove the coupler/splitter/power inserter and touch center conductor to center conductor the picture shows up just fine. I am also able to get a signal to the tv by touching the center conductor from the TV to the outside threads on the splitter/coupler. I figured I must have messed something up when I installed the compression fittings so I re-did them, twice, on both ends of the cable running between the basement and Amplifier.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?
A number of issues are possible.
Check all the coax connectors. The connector needs to be solidly in contact with the outer conductor (foil / braid), and, the inner (center) wire must not be in contact with the connector
If you have any doubts, re-do them. Cut the outside jacket of the cable the length of the connector and pull it off.
Pull the braid/ foil down half way, and, trim it with scissors or pliers so that the inner insulator is completely bare for half the length of the connector. Remove the inner insulator from the center wire three quarters the way, so that a small part of the center insulator is open and bare. Push the new connector down onto the braid / foil....... As best you can, make sure that none of the braid or foil is in contact with the center wire, and the braid and foil is fully in contact with the neck of the connector...... then crimp.
But there are other things that might be wrong. There might be a short or break in one of the cables. The amp might be shorted., or the power supply.
DIY OTA is SO much fun.
post #15779 of 16013
Quote:
Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?

Sounds like a short circuit between the shield and the center conductor on one of the cables.

Swap out each existing cable run with a pre-made cable for troubleshooting purposes.

or... If you have an ohmmeter, unplug both ends of each cable and check for a center-to-shield short circuit. Then, install a jumper at one end of the cable between the shield and center conductor, then go to the other end and look for a low resistance (several ohms, depends on physical length) between the center and shield. These tests will check for gross failures (opens/shorts) in the coax.
Edited by ADTech - 1/16/14 at 8:55am
post #15780 of 16013
Be careful that the power doesn't have to go through any splitters. They are frequently DC shorts.
John
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