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Disappointed with 42" ED Plasma  

post #1 of 67
Thread Starter 
I own a Panny PA20U 42 inch ED plasma, and I would encourage anyone thinking of buying one of these to try to demo a unit first, preferably in a controlled environment using source material you are familiar with.

I can't speak for other brands, but my major gripes with this unit include:

1. The unit is extremely poor at drawing curves. There is very severe stair stepping in any curved outline (e.g. Shrek's head or the 20th Century Fox logo). I have tried both a Panasonic and Toshiba dvd player using progressive component out, with the same problem.

2. When there is quick motion on the screen, there also appears to be combing. I can't tell if this is related to the stairstepping problem or not. Combing is typically a problem with the dvd player's deinterlacing ability, rather than the tv. However, I am using a highly rated RP-82 Panny dvd player, and it never exhibited combing when I used it in the past with an AE-100 lcd projector, leading me to believe that it's a problem with the plasma.

3. For some reason, HD material that is downconverted by the ED plasma looks much much better than the same material on dvd. This is puzzling, as the resolution of the ED plasma almost exactly matches that of dvd. If anything, I would think that HD material would look worse, since the plasma needs to downconvert the 1080i material down to 480p. But there is no question that HD material looks much better. In fact, I find dvd material to look generally unimpressive from a good progressive dvd player. This is after I caliberated the unit using both Video Essentials and by eyeballing it. Still or slow moving images tend to look good (with the exception of the problem with curves noted above), but the detail and resolution look decidedly inferior to watching downconverted HD.

Would appreciate any thoughts of other ED owners to the above.
post #2 of 67
King - I have the WD5UZ 42ED version, and I can't say I've noticed any of the aforementioned. I run standard composite cables for the component connection (I know, I'm gonna change them), but it looks great. I even run it through my receiver first due to my plamsa's lack of inputs...
post #3 of 67
"For some reason, HD material that is downconverted by the ED plasma looks much much better than the same material on DVD. This is puzzling, as the resolution of the ED plasma almost exactly matches that of dvd. If anything, I would think that HD material would look worse, since the plasma needs to downconvert the 1080i material down to 480p"


There are two reasons why downconverted Hdtv looks better.
1. 15% more horizontal resolution. HDTV is downconverted to 852x 480;
where as DVD is 720x480 upconvered to 852x480.
2. ATCS has a much better color system than NTSC.

Summary: You should see more detail and better colors from a downconverted ATSC signal.
post #4 of 67
Are you positive you have your players set to output in progressive mode? I've noticed jagged curves using an interlaced DVD player, but as soon as I used a player with progressive output (both LG LST-3510A and Denon 910) the curves were very smooth. The scene I used to detect jagged curves was at the beginning of chapter 2 of The Bourne Identity. The TVs deinterlacer will draw the white rim of the boat as a jagged curve, whereas the progressive players didn't. I also haven't noticed the combing you mentioned in quick motion scenes. Do you have a specific scene someone else can double-check for you?
post #5 of 67
Weird - I haven't seen any combing or curve drawing problems. I'm using a Pio 563a with progressive on. I just watched Shrek two nights ago and I thought it looked great. Maybe your eyes are just better than mine.

Edit: I want to add that when I first got the display I noticed some 'jaggies', but turning of 3:2 pulldown on the display (if you're using component go to setup/signal) got rid of them. Also, I agree with the above poster - if it all possible use the deinterlacer of the dvd player, not the tv.
post #6 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by ltw9
"For some reason, HD material that is downconverted by the ED plasma looks much much better than the same material on DVD. This is puzzling, as the resolution of the ED plasma almost exactly matches that of dvd. If anything, I would think that HD material would look worse, since the plasma needs to downconvert the 1080i material down to 480p"


There are two reasons why downconverted Hdtv looks better.
1. 15% more horizontal resolution. HDTV is downconverted to 852x 480;
where as DVD is 720x480 upconvered to 852x480.
2. ATCS has a much better color system than NTSC.

Summary: You should see more detail and better colors from a downconverted ATSC signal.
I'm just posting to affirm what "ltw9" has said here. Too often, people think widescreen 1.78 aspect ratio DVD's are outputting "enhanced definition", when in actuality, ED is a step up from 480p.

Hammer
post #7 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by Picus_H
Weird - I haven't seen any combing or curve drawing problems. I'm using a Pio 563a with progressive on. I just watched Shrek two nights ago and I thought it looked great. Maybe your eyes are just better than mine.

Edit: I want to add that when I first got the display I noticed some 'jaggies', but turning of 3:2 pulldown on the display (if you're using component go to setup/signal) got rid of them.
Picus definately may be on to something here. Having the displays 3:2 pulldown on after already recieving the Progressive signal from your player could be the problem.

Hammer
post #8 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by TheHammer69
Picus definately may be on to something here. Having the displays 3:2 pulldown on after already recieving the Progressive signal from your player could be the problem.
Hammer

Ok, but as far as I know, there's no way to disable the display's 3:2 pulldown on the new Panny consumer models, although I heard it used to be possible with older models.

The combing issue isn't too bad, but the curve stair stepping is pretty terrible. Not a subtle thing at all. Interestingly, I don't recall seeing this problem with cable SD or HD material, so you may be on to something re the double 3:2 processing. Anyone with a PA20 know how to disable it?

And re the earlier question, yes, I'm certain I have progressive enabled on the player. But here's the thing: I think I even tried toggeling it on and off to see if it would make a difference (ie. using the display's deinterlacing only), but I don't think that solved the problem. So maybe the double processing isn't the issue after all? I'll have to try it again to see.
post #9 of 67
Does the pulldown setting (on or off) have any impact on a non-DVD (SD or HD) signal?
post #10 of 67
There are often two settings on Panasonic DVD players that are required to get progressive output. My XP30 has this issue.

If only one is turned on, you get interlaced output. You need to hunt down both. One is in setup and one is in the menus...

I'm not saying that's what's happening with yours, but it's worth checking out.

Mark
post #11 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by king roland
Ok, but as far as I know, there's no way to disable the display's 3:2 pulldown on the new Panny consumer models, although I heard it used to be possible with older models.
I think you're right about that. There doesn't appear to be anything in the user's manual about that and nothing in the setup screens.

One way to verify what type of signal the display is receiving is to see what stretch modes are available. 'Just' mode won't be one of the options if you are receiving a 480p signal.
post #12 of 67
I gotta ask......

what form of connection from the DVD to the plasma are you using?

Component? Svideo?
post #13 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by JimSD
I think you're right about that. There doesn't appear to be anything in the user's manual about that and nothing in the setup screens.

One way to verify what type of signal the display is receiving is to see what stretch modes are available. 'Just' mode won't be one of the options if you are receiving a 480p signal.
There is another thread where the question was "can 'just mode' be used with 480p over DVI?" So, went and tested and just mode does work on 480p over DVI. So I now read your post and decide to verify if "just mode" works on 480p over component, and yes, it does. So, this would not be a good test for him.

Hammer
post #14 of 67
King Roland, your highness, I have the 42" Panasonic ED plasma and see none of those problems when using the progressive scan output of my Panasonic RP-91 DVD player.

I think you have some setting issues, which I hope you'll get figured out with the help of people here.
post #15 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
There are often two settings on Panasonic DVD players that are required to get progressive output. My XP30 has this issue.

If only one is turned on, you get interlaced output. You need to hunt down both. One is in setup and one is in the menus...

I'm not saying that's what's happening with yours, but it's worth checking out.

Mark
Prof scan is definitely enabled in my setup. I found the same issues after trying a Toshiba 3950 dvd player, which does not have the "double" enabling issue that Panny dvd players have.

If this problem is really caused by double 3:2 processing, I would say that this is an extremely serious problem with the Panny models, since the vast majority of people will be using a prog scan dvd player outputing via component.
post #16 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by TheHammer69
There is another thread where the question was "can 'just mode' be used with 480p over DVI?" So, went and tested and just mode does work on 480p over DVI. So I now read your post and decide to verify if "just mode" works on 480p over component, and yes, it does. So, this would not be a good test for him.

Hammer
But that was on a commercial Panasonic (6UY) wasn't it? For some reason 480P doesn't have Just mode on the 42PA20.
post #17 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by JimSD
But that was on a commercial Panasonic (6UY) wasn't it? For some reason 480P doesn't have Just mode on the 42PA20.
My bad then. When you own the commercial version, sometimes you forget about the possible subtle differences between the commercial and the consumer versions.

Hammer
post #18 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Brucer
I gotta ask......

what form of connection from the DVD to the plasma are you using?

Component? Svideo?
Component (of course). You can't transmit a progressive signal via S-video.
post #19 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by king roland
Component (of course). You can't transmit a progressive signal via S-video.
That's why Brucer was asking... :D
post #20 of 67
Have you tried the same scenes with progressive turned off in your DVD player? Even though the prog scan processing in the panel isnt as good as in your dvd player - it certainly shouldnt be as bad as you described in your original post, and might be a quick troubleshoot to see if it truly is double processing thats gumming up the works otherwise.

- pink
post #21 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by king roland
Component (of course). You can't transmit a progressive signal via S-video.

Doesnt Rich H use svideo in his setup? Yet he also just said above that he is using the progressive scan output from his rp-91. So *can* svideo carry a progressive signal? Or was he just saying that when he does use component he doesnt see any of the isues king R mentioned?

I need to decide which boat I want to jump in :)

- pink
post #22 of 67
Thread Starter 
While we're on the issue, can PA20 owners post what their 1st and 2nd screen picture settings are (including whether you have "natural color" enabled, etc.), and what dvd player (and output method) you're using?

Thanks
post #23 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by ltw9

...
HDTV is downconverted to 852x 480;
where as DVD is 720x480 upconvered to 852x480.
...
Additionally, depending on the algorithms, I imagine it is harder to mathematically convert resolution and get a good picture with no artifacts when the numbers are close. Imagine converting 851 x 479 to 852 x 480. (Yeah, I know, I'd just throw those bits away, too).

Qualifier: I know nothing about conversion algorithms and resultant picture quaility.
post #24 of 67
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ltw9

...
HDTV is downconverted to 852x 480;
where as DVD is 720x480 unconverted to 852x480.
...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Additionally, depending on the algorithms, I imagine it is harder to mathematically convert resolution and get a good picture with no artifacts when the numbers are close. Imagine converting 851 x 479 to 852 x 480. (Yeah, I know, I'd just throw those bits away, too).

Qualifier: I know nothing about conversion algorithms and resultant picture quaility.

My point was that it is easier to downconvert and get a great picture than to upconvert and get a mediocre picture.
post #25 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by king roland
1. The unit is extremely poor at drawing curves. There is very severe stair stepping in any curved outline (e.g. Shrek's head or the 20th Century Fox logo).
So not like this?:

http://www.pbase.com/image/13234640
(okay Rich?)

Have last years 5uy and have not seen any "severe" stairstepping. More like the shot above without as much EE.
post #26 of 67
Ya, I was going to link that also but didn't know if it was ok. That's almost exactly how Shrek looks on my 6UY. I will try tonight with 3:2 pulldown ON on the display. Note - I have progressive set to on on the DVD, and 3:2 enabled on the DVD player, but turned off on the tv. I'm not sure if that does anything, but turning 3:2 off on the tv seemed to help smooth out the edges when I did it. Like I said, I originally noticed jagged edges on a pair of eye glasses when watching a Band of Brothers DVD. I thought my sharpness was off, but it turned out to be the pulldown on the TV. It would be a real shame if this option wasn't available on the consumer model.
post #27 of 67
I was thinking about this last night (that's sad, isnt it?) .. it might be helpful if the OP could let us know how far away from the panel he is sitting when making his observations.

- pink
post #28 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by Picus_H
Ya, I was going to link that also but didn't know if it was ok.
I assumed that it would be ok because the link to his pics are in his sig. I also know what they say about assuming hence the question.
post #29 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by Picus_H
I want to add that when I first got the display I noticed some 'jaggies', but turning of 3:2 pulldown on the display (if you're using component go to setup/signal) got rid of them. Also, I agree with the above poster - if it all possible use the deinterlacer of the dvd player, not the tv.
I understood 3:2 pulldown to be a video conversion process for filmed media. Computer generated animation like Shrek or Nemo would not necessarily need this conversion would it?
post #30 of 67
Quote:
Originally posted by Digitude
I understood 3:2 pulldown to be a video conversion process for filmed media. Computer generated animation like Shrek or Nemo would not necessarily need this conversion would it?
Digitude - honestly, I have no idea. I'm shaky on exactly what 3:2 pulldown does, so I just let my eye tell me what looks good and what doesn't. After I first got my panel I spent a few days primarily tinkering with it to get it 'just right' so I wouldn't have to adjust the settings on a regular basis. In the process of this tinkering I noticed that when I had 3:2 pulldown on in both the DVD player and display, I got jagged edges on the DVD I was using as a reference (Band of Brothers, disk 2 episode 3, Carentan). The jagged edges were mostly on things like eye glasses when the person tilted their head, or vehicles with long straight edges in the distance. I assume this was filmed since it's live action, so perhaps that's why I noticed the 'jaggies' with 3:2 on in the display. Since I turned it off I have not noticed 'jaggies' on any other DVD's (or anywhere else for that matter), so I haven't touched it. If I remember I will put Shrek in tonight and turn 3:2 on to see if it creates 'jaggies' with it. Judging by your description of what 3:2 pulldown does, I doubt it will.
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