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Behr "Silverscreen" Paint - Page 7

post #181 of 1420
6/22/04 at 2:47pm
Quote:


Originally posted by bcortez
Tom, with all due respect, did you actually try it, or is this a hypothesis on your part? Many here have lots of knowledgable opinion, hypothesis, and questions, but until you actually try something, it's all academic, wouldn't you agree?

No, I wouldn't agree with this. If someone told me they painted their screen sunflower yellow, I would not have to try it myself in order to have a good idea of what a projected image looked like on it.

As I've stated in other threads, this isn't magic, it is science. Results can be fairly accurately predicted if one has enough of the data. Since we are talking about flat wall screens with no special properties other than the reflectively of the latex paint being used on them, this really isn't a difficult equation to solve for, at least in terms of having a good grasp of the effect.

In this case I base most of my statements upon the outcome being largely predictable once one knows exactly what the paint is comprised of.

In addition to this, I did take two paint sample cards home and did examine them very closely under a variety of colors being projected on them while comparing their effect vs both pure white and light gray. Using very small areas isn't as easy to quickly see the results, but nonetheless, the effects can be observed and are quite accurate if this is done correctly.

I wasn't about to drop another $10 on a quart of paint that I already knew wasn't going to be what I wanted.

The effect I immediately saw was that the Silverscreen swatch was browner than the pure light grey behind it. As I ran various colors over that area, this was constantly true. But I should add while the effect was immediately obvious, it was still subtle.

I'm sure that if one was observing a full screen of this color that while all colors would be shifted toward a warmer brown, that you eyes would acclimate to this and you might not be able to readily notice the effect unless you then overlaid the screen with some white or color-neutral gray.

Note that while I said I wasn't enamored of this effect, I'm not a big fan of using the screen to tint the color balance, that this doesn't mean that others wouldn't like it, or even love it. In the end a person should use whatever makes that screen look the best to them. If that happens when projecting on Silverscreen, then use Silverscreen.


Quote:


Thanks for the formula. How did you get it? Did you have the paint anaylzed or something? Honestly, I am curious (no digs intended).

Nope, I simply asked the Home Depot paint guy to write it down for me. Along with about 7 or 8 other paint formulas. He readily complied.

Quote:


As I said in the opening post, I was using a plain piece of GatorFoam, the hotspotting was unbearable, compared to that Behr SS is a 1000% improvement for a minimal investment. That's a winner in my book. Hell, I'm not a chemist, never claimed to be, just a videophile that enjoys DIY and experimenting.

I think what you did was fine. Sharing was fine too. I just wanted to add some facts and opinion to the thread.

I'm all for people doing this. However I would like it if a lot of participants on these forums begin to embrace that they are not slaves to commercial paint mixes. The likelihood of a commercial wall paint being the perfect screen for a projector is extremely low. But maybe it is close for a particular person in a particular room with a particular projector. Then from there, they can move toward custom mixes that do even more for them.

My concern about Silverscreen is that it just has too much other color in it. I can see dabbling around the edges of a pure gray screen by having a little bit of red or green or blue or orange added in to slightly impact the color balance. But this paint has about 3-4 times as much color as I would ever advocate. This makes me uncomfortable.

I also believe that everyone who starts to go down the path of using a darker screen should begin by using pure grays. That is the logical starting point. First get your black levels to where you like them before you start dinking around with altering the color balance. That's my opinion, and it may not be worth anything to you.
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post #182 of 1420
6/22/04 at 2:50pm
I do agree that if you are painting a whole wall that a paint like SS will have a higher WAF than if you use a pure gray. Pure grays look dingy and institutional.

HT advocates have a nice benefit in that one of the best wall paints for use as a screen is white. Great colors, bright images, high WAF in many cases.
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post #183 of 1420
6/22/04 at 5:23pm
Boy o Boy, did I guess wrong. I really DID think that you had to have some real basis for your posted comments, and went to batt for you on the basis of that premise.

You say your sharing facts & opinions? I see not one provable "dessenting" statement in your post. Opinions that are offered up without basis in any true experience, or real effort are nothing more than self aggrandizing rants made for the bebeifit of one's own ego. .

Tom, for you to say you can make such deffinative conculsions by observing a paint swatch card from HD is ludicrous. A Paint swatch card is a rendering of the color, but it is NOT the same as the paint, either in texture, composition, or thickness. In effect, all you were making your judgements on were a piece of colored cardboard. Even so, if at the very minimum, had you tried the mix itself on a 2' x 4' peice of cardboard, you could be excused much. Maybe even acknowledged. But I degress. $10.00 was too much. Talk is cheaper.

Your Sunflower example is almost akin to the old "If someone told you to Jump in front of a Train..' line Parents have used for years uncounted to shame children for being blindly led by others into wrongdoing.

Your comments are close to insulting to the people who have spent the $10.00 you refused to, and if you cannot find the funds or the time to do likewise, you relegate your observations down to the level of mere speculation. Your opinions become nothing more than uninformed guesses. Your not so learned or experienced in the realm of of painting or the genre of DIY that you can so easily dismiss what so many have already tried and accepted as valid, unless you just plain insistant on decrying any efforts by others not officially approved by you as valid. I've personally seen how various methods and exotic materials have been all to easily dismissed by your Peers on AVS, yet have resulted in excellent DIY projects. Thank God so many decided to 'try it anyway'.

I'm used to the abuse, and have received such for statements and projects that are far in excess of what this poor, misguided thread pertains to.
These Folks here deserve better, and more respect for thier endeavors. Personally, I think this paint, and various other DIY options have scared the hell out of people who sell screens for a living. Soon, the Mfgs will draw sweat as well. And it should, just as the knowledge that a flat, smooth, plain white wall will work as good any plain white Mfg screen should if more Consumers got the word. And beleive you me, with the Masses poised to snatch up "The Big Picture", there will be many more who are receptive to a affordable, common sense approach than to the various Mfg. options..., IF they DO get the aforementioned word.

What a world, what a world.

I'm melting.................melting.
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post #184 of 1420
6/22/04 at 6:42pm
"Gee...would you look at that? We're outta snowcones."
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post #185 of 1420
6/22/04 at 7:04pm
Quote:


Originally posted by CMRA
"Gee...would you look at that? We're outta snowcones."

I can make some more... It'll just take a minute... I just need to go outside...
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post #186 of 1420
6/22/04 at 7:54pm
Quote:


Originally posted by Stereodude
I can make some more... It'll just take a minute... I just need to go outside...

Please don't! I don't want to join in on Tom's Brain Freeze



Pee S,

Oh...., I get it. Snowcones. Outside. Yellow.
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post #187 of 1420
6/22/04 at 8:18pm
Let's not go too far off of the deep end.

I see absolutely no reason to go buy a paint that is half tinted by the color Raw Umber. I'm not going to throw away $10 & paint more boards to satisfy your curiosity. Nor will I be trying a paint that contains 20/48ths of magenta, green, blue, or every other tint in the paint machine just to make sure I have tried them all before posting. That would be silly.

I have access to all of these colors here in my home. My daughter is an artist. We have about 30 tubes of color pigments. I can, and do, cut some of them with white to see how the color lightens. I have seen very light raw umber. I do not want to tint my fleshtones and all other colors into that direction.

I very seriously doubt that the manufacturers who make screens for a living are scared by the likes of Silverscreen and Misty Evening wall paints. Given that most of their potential customer base is paying $2000+ for their projectors, I suspect only a small fraction of that base is going to be projecting on various tints of wall paint (excluding white which I'm sure far more people are projecting onto). Particularly wall paint that has tints in it that change the color balance of those expensive projectors and have below 1.0 gain factors.

Projecting on a white wall, made up of paint or Parkland or Do-Able or whatever, is a frugal person's attempt to get relatively decent images for a low cost. I readily admit to being one of these people who has chosen to not pursue the best possible image at the cost of a much better screen. Projecting onto true gray screens is even more of a compromise in an attempt to get better blacks at the expense of the vibrancy of colors. Count me in again here. Projecting onto mostly gray but color-tinted wall paint is problematic where one gives up vibrancy and color accuracy in the name of picking up nirvana in an easily mixed $10 can of paint.

Sure some of us are satisfied with these compromises. That's because we are saving money. I doubt many of us would choose to keep these screens if we had a chance to pick up a true high-performance screen for $50.

I will agree with you that there is little reason to trade a good Parkland or Behr UPW screen for a plain matte white "professional" screen. I've compared them and there is very little difference. The plain white screen is where DIY really does compete well - cheap and relatively easy to implement. But matte white is not where today's screen technology is focused, that is a decades old solution.

Anyone who thinks the big screen manufacturers are in their back rooms devising strategies to ward off losing large chunks of their business to Home Depot-mixed Behr & Glidden wallpaints needs to wake up from their fantasy dream.

I think any true challenge to those companies would come from DIY efforts that produce better contrast or black levels or screen gain while still perserving excellent color rendition. I would not be surprised if some of these exist. But I know they can't be purchased in a single can from Home Depot.
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post #188 of 1420
6/22/04 at 9:02pm
Tom :

What if theoritically you had 3 pigments that reflect back a similar spectrum to the light that makes it through the 3 color filters of a DLP. That mixture of the three primary colors would look grey, perhaps similat to pure lamp black at whatever G level. But since the lamp black form of grey will absorb and reflect uniformly across the spectrum, and the hypothetical 3 color wheel matching pigments will reflect selectively those three bands of light that the PJ source is rich in, yet absorb ambient light that falls in the troughs between the projected colors. If the light that comes through the color wheel is fairly narrow spectrum, seems a grey screen like this would be the best of both worlds.
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post #189 of 1420
6/22/04 at 10:19pm
What exactly is a high performance screen? Yes, I know about the 'SilverStar' and the 'FireHawk' and the 'High Power'. But do they really qualify for high performance or are they simply esoteric?

What, by definition, determines "high performance"? Gain? Improved preceived contrast? Color fidelity? Even illumination? Ambient light rejection? Cost? Wow factor? Marketing hype?

If anyone were to say "That's a High Performance screen", which one(s) would they be talking about?

Please put some thought into this before you spout off an answer.

BTW, my take: There are no High performance screens. Merely trade-offs. They all reflect, they are all passive, and it's a balance of what you are willing to compromise to get the benefits you want.
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post #190 of 1420
6/23/04 at 3:30am
MM,

Quote:


Screenie? Get off that Road Rocket and post a Pic!

I posted several pix. Page 4, post 161, 162 and 163.
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post #191 of 1420
6/23/04 at 3:36am
Quote:


Originally posted by MississippiMan
Yo , Wassup wit da slip? ? It's Da Bomb!



BOOYAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #192 of 1420
6/23/04 at 5:40am
Quote:


Originally posted by CMRA
but, I found her. Darla on light fusion:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...414&fullpage=1

Now I'm a novice when it comes to screenshots but in viewing the pictures of Darla from bcortez and CMRA's ME and silver shot and comparing them to this picture on LF, am I seeing hotspotting on Darla's thumb? It's hard to see any definition on her thumb in the LF picture.
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post #193 of 1420
6/23/04 at 6:41am
Quote:


Originally posted by bowbie89
Now I'm a novice when it comes to screenshots but in viewing the pictures of Darla from bcortez and CMRA's ME and silver shot and comparing them to this picture on LF, am I seeing hotspotting on Darla's thumb? It's hard to see any definition on her thumb in the LF picture.

Actually, no. Of the three, only the silver demonstrates 'hot spotting'. It could be more accurately labeled 'warm spotting' as it is not as intense as most hot spotting images you see posted. Hot spotting refers to those images where the projection light beam concentrates (usually in the middle) and a distinct vignetting surrounds it. The LF Darla is merely a CCD challenged exposure issue.
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post #194 of 1420
6/23/04 at 7:59am
Thread Starter 
So Tom, you are comfortable offering an opinion based on nothing more than speculation? Ok, that's your perogative, and your right. Therefore, is it also my right to say that any statement made without a shred of physical proof or backing is simply bunk and FUD? You may not agree with me, many here may not agree with me, but don't tell ME that $10.00 is too much to experiment and PROVE a theory. If you do, then I guess your opinion is worth less than $10.00, huh?

I too looked at the swatches in HD, even brought a few (I think it was about 5) out into the sun to see the real color. I also taped the 5 together and projected onto them (using a new Panasonic PT-L500U LCD projector) alongside the plain white GatorFoam as well as blackout cloth IN MY THEATER under differing light conditions using the light dimmer. In MY eyes, the silverscreen paint looked better out of the three. Granted, this is a hypothesis and still classified as biased opinion. I therefore spent the $10.00 to PROVE my hypothesis, since I recognize it as opinion before I posted my results, and I value my opinion at a lot more than $10.00. I also spent an afternoon's worth of time and rolled the paint on the GatorFoam (two coats).

Once it dried for 3 hours, I projected an image onto it (knowing that it still wasn't fully cured) to see the initial effect against another piece of white GatorFoam and blackout cloth (repeating the previous experiment on a larger scale).

I repeated this experiment 5 times over the course of 5 weeks. This allowed me to determine if curing had any affect to the reflected image and/or viewing cone. To me, there was no visible difference other than the bowing I have mentioned and eventually followed up with a posted screenshot of the entire thing.

Now, is this still my opinion? Probably, but I think it carries a heck of a lot more credibility since it's based upon FACTS and is reproducable and documented. Say what you will from your high horse, but frankly, I take anything you say with a grain of salt (some Lemon, Tequila, Triple Sec and ice too). Until I see hard evidence that I can reproduce myself, then it's all just stale hot air in my book.

So unless you have something real to contribute to the conversation, "I return you all to your regularly scheduled program, already in progress".

PS: I apologize to those fellow DIY'ers here for my ranting in defense of my honor.
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post #195 of 1420
6/23/04 at 8:48am
Quote:


Originally posted by bcortez
So Tom, .................................Say what you will from your high horse, but frankly, I take anything you say with a grain of salt (some Lemon, Tequila, Triple Sec and ice too). Until I see hard evidence that I can reproduce myself, then it's all just stale hot air in my book.


Hic. What he said.
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post #196 of 1420
6/23/04 at 10:04am
There are some examples of Tom's experiments with "purely" gray screens in thread# 344875.

Keep the great DIY ideas (and brew) flowing!

wps
gHg
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post #197 of 1420
6/23/04 at 10:45am
Tom,

Understand that in the world of DIY, you cannot discount or discredit the efforts of others who have contributed "sweat equity" to an Idea by merely stating conjecture, even if it's based on what you to perceive as accumulated knowledge.

Many who think they "know it all", and have dismissed an idea or concept as a fruitless effort on the basis of their pre-conceived opinions have come to regret NOT having tried it themselves.

Tom, you can never tell when an idea or concept might pan out differently than expected. Even qualified concepts have a variable depending on who / what / where / how it's done. My efforts with Silver Metallic / MM 'on-wall' screens as well as Light Fusion are prime examples.

First off, I took SM, which until then was dissed as a poor substitute for a screen paint by itself, and attenuated it's effect by painting Goo over it. Wow. End results were better that either alone could muster. Created MMud, did another full sized example, and achieved even better results.
..............and with Home Depot paints, mind you.

I read on Trygs posts that Mirrors were inappropriate screen surfaces, and only First Surface Mirrors would be a candidate if they could be considered, and they cost too much, and they weigh too much...yadda, etc. I bought that opinion "untried' and came down hard on CMRA for considering a Mirror as a substitute for the "pain in the ass" aspects of messin' with spraying or rolling the SM on Plexi. Shoot, I even had misgivings about using clear Plexi as a substitute for dicking around with having to smooth various surfaces out to allow for a texture-less finish. (...that was the original reason for Plexi.) I even speculated that static cling might attract enough duct to create a problem. I still feel sheepish about that one.

But I didn't remain myopic for long, because the discourse on the thread was based on "doing", not just extrapolating data and endlessly debating on it. It (..the whole Plexi idea..) was at least promising enough to cause me to jet from Memphis to San Diego and combine efforts with CMRA to DO something to prove or disprove the ideas and speculation. ( ...yeah, and consume mass quantities of Beer as well....)

And Tom....., believe you me, it cost me (...and CMRA) slightly more than $10.00 to prove out that the concept was indeed worth the trouble. So what did we get for our trouble? SuperDeluxe. a SM/MM screen that far surpassed any expectations we could have hoped for.

Then, because applying SM onto Plexi was still an issue, and because a high degree of light reflectivity off of, and within the gap created by the 1/8' Plexi had become a known asset, CMRA suggested Mirrors, I pooh - poohed it again, (Not because the idea wasn't valid, but because of cost, weight, and availability, ) but he forged ahead, got a cheap mirror, sprayed it with MMud, and the first official Light Fusion Mirror screen was born.

And the result? Many such as you have decried the apparent quality of the end results posted as Snake Oil, deception, manipulation, misinformation, and all because they all just KNEW that you cannot use mirrors, you cannot get any added value from a mirror covered with paint, paint form HD cannot be good enough, and NO WAY could you get images from a inexpensive PJ like the ones posted.

But we did, and all because we tried when other did/would not.

Now comes bcortez, with an idea, (...maybe new, maybe not...) that he hadn't just thought about, he researched it. and did something with his hypothesis. Before he posted an opinion. Myself, on the weight of bcortez ACTUAL experience and results, dared to match it up against the big boy Screen Mfg at the Shoot Out, just for kicks, and it did surprisingly well. Some disaffected parties who have no reason to want a $10 option touted as viable deny that, but I was there, and I had many (30+ out of 90+ present..t) people take the time and make the effort to come up to me personally, and comment immediately afterwards that they we're not just surprised, but amazed that a $10.00 paint could look so good. Was it the best screen application present? No one ventured that opinion, but did it compare favorably against the HC Gray Screen competition? You bet it did.

So really, although I sincerely believe that you bear not one wit of malice or antagonism toward threads like this one, or even against others trying methods you yourself wouldn't, your disrespect for others actual efforts lessens your relevance to a far lower level than it should be.

Some time back last January, on the "Experimenting with Parkland" thread, you did actually roll up your sleeves and do some testing. Although your results, and conclusions were widely discounted as in error. (...those folks were pretty emphatic about it...) Some of your reported results were still tainted on suppositions of non applicability based on personal assumptions, yet your personal efforts at that point lent far more credence to your posts then than here and now. At least there were valid points in your post for one to argue about.

Try it (SS) and if it fails, come back and blast away. Your opinion would then count for something.

All I can quote is:
"Get back. Get back. Get back to where you once belonged."

..................and spend that 10 bucks, ya Cheapskate!



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post #198 of 1420
6/23/04 at 12:02pm
I've used both a sheet of white Parkland and a Do-Able Board painted with Silverscreen paint for my screen. I'm currently using the Silverscreen one as I was having problems keeping waves out of the Parkland material. So far this Do-Able + Silverscreen solution has worked perfect for me. Before I had these I was using the blank wall for my image.

Why did I go DIY? Because i'm cheap and poor and there's no way in hell im going to spend as much as I spent on my projector for a stupid peice of material that I hang on my wall when I get a perfectly good image with what I have now.

The big benefit to me of the Silverscreen paint was the detail in blacks. An example would be the game Halo. I play this all the time, but when I was using a white screen people could hide in the shadows and it would be hard for me to see them. With my grey screen it became much easier to see people hiding in dark places, even when they are wearing black armor.

Anywhoo.... i'm not going to fight with anyone about what is better, I'm sure those "High Performance" screens would add a lot of pretty colors , brightness, and what not to my image, but untill they cost $100-$200 for a 150" i'll have to pass.
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post #199 of 1420
6/23/04 at 12:26pm
It was a wake-up call for many AVSers to discover DIY. What was unimaginable a year ago is eclipsed by many today. They are enjoying DIY solutions they produced themselves that equal or exceed manufactured offerings for a fraction of the cost. You simply do not need to spend $500, $1000, or $2000 to own a great screen. Additionally, you can customize it to your likings and share the education you undeniably acquire along the way.
Point in fact: Follow the Light Fusion story. What all started on a simple piece of plexiglas blossomed into what it is today. And, clever AVSers keep coming up with new and exciting ways to make it even more appealing if not better too.
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post #200 of 1420
6/23/04 at 6:21pm
Quote:


Originally posted by bcortez
So Tom, you are comfortable offering an opinion based on nothing more than speculation?

I know the color because I've got color samples.

I know the exact paint formula.

I know the colors used in the formula.

I know the effects of having exactly this much lamp black in a paint formula.

I know the effects of having exactly this much red in a paint formula.

I know the effects of having a small amount of raw umber in a paint formula.

I've projected onto two different paint card samples of Silverscreen.

I have experience in testing a variety of different projection screens using different projectors in different rooms.

You want to call my statements nothing more than "speculation" then go ahead, but I must respectfully disagree.

I guess you would need to do such things as to actually taste chocolate with anchovy pieces before you would have any idea of what that might taste like. Or go on a space shuttle before accepting that the earth is round.

As I stated before, I have no problem with anyone liking how an image looks when projected on paints like SS or ME. Who am I to say what is best for someone else. Just like someone might like an audio system better if it rolls off the highs from what would be dead accurate because they find dead accuracy to be bright to their ears.

However people should be able to readily accept and admit that these screen paints are not color neutral because it is impossible for them to be color neutral. Just face reality and admit that it's a personal preference thing. There's no disgrace in that.

I checked out Silverscreen 6 months ago. Looked it over carefully. Got the paint formula. Got the paint samples. Checked out the colors using pure color pigments and their effects when mixed. Then I determined it was not something I was interested in and feel I did so for very sound reasons. I do not have to go buy the paint, paint screens, and run tests to validate my decision. I did the same things with several other gray shades from Behr, Glidden, Walmart, Ace, and other paints. I suspect you performed some kind of evaluative process or else you must have come home with 20 quarts of various gray paints and extensively tested them all.

Sometimes decisions can be based solely upon sound principles.
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post #201 of 1420
6/23/04 at 6:28pm
Quote:


Originally posted by bcortez
Now, is this still my opinion? Probably, but I think it carries a heck of a lot more credibility since it's based upon FACTS and is reproducable and documented.

Until I see hard evidence that I can reproduce myself, then it's all just stale hot air in my book.

And so you have conducted controlled comparisons of silverscreen vs a known true gray paint of the same grayscale density and absolutely determined that there is no colorshift? Or do you wish to offer a speculation on that subject?
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post #202 of 1420
6/24/04 at 7:04am
Thread Starter 
First, I'd like to apologize to those who feel this discussion has spiralled away from it's original intent. That's why in the following remarks, I've tried to expose my real and actual methods relating to the Behr SS paint being used as a projection surface.

Quote:


Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil
And so you have conducted controlled comparisons of silverscreen vs a known true gray paint of the same grayscale density and absolutely determined that there is no colorshift? Or do you wish to offer a speculation on that subject?

No, I have not tested against a neutral (zone 5) gray. Also, please, point me to anywhere here (or on any thread on AVS or on the Internet) where I stated that Behr SS was "color neutral". This is your term not mine. You made some interesting statements earlier too, like:

Quote:


I know the color because I've got color samples.
I've projected onto two different paint card samples of Silverscreen.

Good, how big are the samples? What was your viewing distance of the tests. Many, many, many people more knowledgeable than me here on AVS have stated emphatically that any sample less than (I guess it's about) 2'x4' doesn't give an accurate estimation of performance. Anything less than that is subject to a wider interpretation of the results (unless of course there's a light spectrometer used, which will probably work with that size sample I guess). Do you have a light spectrometer? I've never claimed any of these "color" properties you mention in any of my threads, other than stating my opinion that I think it increases CR based upon my observations of physical testing and the posting of screen shots using facial tones.

Quote:


I know the effects of having exactly this much lamp black in a paint formula.

I know the effects of having exactly this much red in a paint formula.

I know the effects of having a small amount of raw umber in a paint formula.

You "know" these things. How? Where is your emperical evidence to back that statement up? Your statement of your daughter being an artist is irrelevant to your argument (unless you too are an artist that uses either paint or light, as in photography, as your meduim). You may have played around with the colors, but a 2 year kid doing finger painting is one thing and (to use the wild analogy formula you seem to like) Leonardo DaVinci is another thing.

You stated previously "As I've stated in other threads, this isn't magic, it is science", well, I too understand how science and the scientific method works.

The scientific method is defined here: http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/ph...AppendixE.html

One notable item from the definition is this, "The most fundamental error is to mistake the hypothesis for an explanation of a phenomenon, without performing experimental tests. Sometimes "common sense" and "logic" tempt us into believing that no test is needed. There are numerous examples of this, dating from the Greek philosophers to the present day."

It is this reason I performed my controlled testing under varying light conditions. I even asked my wife to look at it, although she couldn't be bothered to be taken away from her rerun episode of Friends at the time


So proceeding down that path:

I'd like to first clarify my credentials upon which my statements are based (for the benefit of anyone here that might be interested):

I happen to have received a Associate of Science degree in Computer Information Science from Northern Essex Community College '93, a Bachelor of Science degree Computer Science, with a minor in photography, at Northeastern University '98 in Boston, MA. And I've been an amatuer photographer since the age of 13 when I got my first 35mm SLR.

Therefore, I can honestly say "know" a bit about light and it's affect on color, and the interplay of that color on your eyes in different light level situations. My specialty in photography, it was my final thesis for the degree actually, was large format 4x5 night photography. This specialty requires an indepth _knowledge_ of how light behaves and is peceived in your eye at that level as well as requiring a full _understanding_ of the inverse relationship of light level to distance, the reciprocity effect of film at varying temperatures. We also had to _know_ how to calculate the expected effects, predict what the final image would be, and properly process and print the images (large images, smallest being 20x25) and the effect of light at varying distances using color filters, etc...

------------------------
So, using the scientific method:

1. Observation and Description
Stated earlier as going through the color on the swatches in HD looking for Misty Evening. Not finding it, I searched for something similar, which I came across the Behr SS shade.

2. Formulation of an Hypothesis
Thinking, hmm, this looks similar enough to the Misty Evening shade and it's not that expensive if I have to actually try it.

3. Predict Quantitatively the Results of new Observations
Thinking, I'll bet it has the same properties and will perform in a similar manner to the Misty Evening shade. I'll take 5 swatches to get a big bigger sample piece.

4. Performance of Experimental Tests
I compared the white GatorFoam (blasted out whites and hotspotting was awful) and the (5x swatch) sample of Behr SS. Viewing at both close range and TRYING to see it from seating position at 11' or so, I couldn't really get a good feel for it's performance. _Knowing_ that this size sample wouldn't prove anything to those more knowledgeable than me here on AVS, I must go larger, so I had to pony up the $10.00 at this point and commit to an afternoon.

Using approx 1/3 of the 80x45 surface area for each sample. I used my piece of blackout cloth (which many here start out with as screens, and fares pretty well on its own) as my control since I _know_ it's properties upon the image and it's properties are also familar to many here (a zone 5 grey would also be a good control, I admit, since it is used as a calibration aid in color photography). I proceeded to purchase a quart of the Behr SS to run a larger sampling and comparison test....more "real world" actually. I made a full size 80x45 screen, ran the comparison again to gain EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.
------------------------

So, there you have it, my application of the scientific method in my experiments. Can you say the same? Have you done due diligence? After all, you said yourself, "it's a science".
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post #203 of 1420
6/24/04 at 7:15am
bcortez,

PLEASE, remind me not to cross swords with you over anything more weighty than beer.

Ya know, one of the best aspects of the recent drive toward DIY is that it empowers people to take charge and go where no one else has bothered to go before. Or revisit places where others have abandoned the effort.

Some of the most increadible advances and most desirable products we all enjoy these days came from such effort.

..............now, about that beer?
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post #204 of 1420
6/24/04 at 7:27am
Quote:


Originally posted by MississippiMan
bcortez,

PLEASE, remind me not to cross swords with you over anything more weighty than beer.

..............now, about that beer?

Yes, about that beer. Is a run in order? It's Thursday. PS: Wanna tote along your 20HD and have some fun?
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post #205 of 1420
6/24/04 at 8:18am
Does anyone have experience with spraying this sort of latex paint on SINTRA? Do you think it needs a primer?
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post #206 of 1420
6/24/04 at 9:11am
Thread Starter 
I take it you're not referring to Sintra, Portugal here

chengka, what is SINTRA? Never heard of it. Is it some sort of panelling material, wood, plastic, etc...?
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post #207 of 1420
6/24/04 at 9:14am
Thread Starter 
Googled it, found it at: http://www.solarbotics.net/starting/...07_sintra.html

Sintra® is the brand name for Alusuise Composites' rigid PVC (poly vinyl chloride) foam board2, a moderately expanded, closed-cell PVC sheet. Developed in Europe in the 1970's, Sintra® was introduced to North America in 1980, and has been used primarily in signs and displays to date. Thanks to a number of useful properties, though, Sintra® and its cousins are seeing increasing attention of late from robot builders.
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post #208 of 1420
6/24/04 at 9:55am
Bcortez,
You've got it.

It's more rigid than Parkland and even available in gray or light gray. The 3mil 4x8 sheet is generally sold by plastic suppliers for $35, cut to size. I think it's rigid enough to use unsupported, just mask it and you're done. There are some discussions around here about and it's generally well received.

I have a sample of white and it looked like it would hotspot, the grays might not. My plan is to paint one side with silverscreen and maybe even try some Opticoat over that. Since both sides are finished, I always have the other side

Ken
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post #209 of 1420
6/24/04 at 10:00am
P.S. $24 per sheet for white, $29 for colors AND it's available in 5x10!

Now if I could just spray worth a cr@p!!
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post #210 of 1420
6/24/04 at 11:39am
Thread Starter 
chengka,

Is it available in either clear or translucent? Now if it was available in clear, we may have another substrate for a LF that's lighter, thinner, and less expensive than either glass, mirrors, or plexi. And it gives me more ideas (scientific method #1 & #2).


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