Behr "Silverscreen" Paint - Page 11

All right, I'm gonna make a Light Fusion! I've decided after MORE research.

BUT- where do I get a huge plastic mirror? I can't find that info- but I'll keep searching...

But the plexi/acrylic solution seems quite viable and maybe easier to control. Either way, I'll try it. Perhaps using MM's new formula for "High Contrast Light Fusion" with the SS!

AND- the offset on the H30 is extreme and I have low ceilings forcing me to watch at a slight angle unless I utilize slight keystone- will this be of consequence with Light Fusion?

I'd wet sand it and paint flat white primer right over it.

The answers to your queries;

1. Obtaining a Mirror.
GE Polymershapes 1218 Central Avenue, NE Minneapolis, MN 612-781-6585 <<>>>

2. With the H-30, you'll be far better off going with a mirror and the subsequent coatings of MMud. I'd stay away from any SS/MMud derivative.

Perhaps at most, the addition of 2 - 1/96 Oz droplets of Lamp Black will increase black levels without dulling Whites and colors. Just remember, the mirror is involved in increasing contrast in and of itself, so if you start out with a PJ with good contrast values, working to further increase CR can be an exercise in redundancy at best, and self-defeating at worst.

3. Do you have access to the area above your ceiling? If so, effecting a DIY ceiling mount that consists of a wood plate cleated to the ceiling from above, and with holes drilled through in line with the mounting screw holes in the bottom of the PJ will allow you to place the PJ directly onto the ceiling with no more that a 1/2" to 3/4" difference. I just recently did this for a Client with a 7' 2" ceiling and it worked great. You might have to shim a corner to get the PJ's ceiling Base plate level, but that isn't a big deal. Simply put, there is no inverted PJ mount that can give you less that a 6" to 7" drop. As stated above, the "Ceiling Plate" method reduces that to at or under 3/4". Look here later today (Evening actually) for a photo of such a mount at the bottom of this post.

PM me before you squirt for more explicit advice. Meanwhile, don't distress all these "One Coat'ers" on this thread by discussing such esoteric applications as Light Fusion. Among DIY'ers there are those who take the phrase to mean "Do it as easily as possible."

Oh yeah..., as far as salvaging the Goo debacale, Todd's advice;

"I'd wet sand it and paint flat white primer right over it."

..is good and sage advice. Only use MMud instead of primer.

Too bad you can never actually get away with 1 coat

MMan I still need to buy an acylic mirror for testing. I think I'll hack one of those $10 plastic Walmart full length mirrors.

Ryan, you should probably do likewise first. If you stink at rolling just imagine your first spray project!

"One Coat" means using only one type of paint. Multible coats done right will effect a superior finish.

Your Local GE Poly Dealer should have scraps for free or next to nothing to hand out, especially if your gonna invest afterwards in a full size piece.

And yes...practice makes purrrrfect. Or nearly so.

Recently, I observed a Light Fusion screen that was painted by a Auto Body shop. Although the painter Guy applied too much paint, the finish was REALLY Glass smooth. To perfection actually. And he charged the IS Dealer only $40.00 to squirt it.

For those with no HLVP equipment or experience, and who are getting the "sweats" just contemplating the potentail disaster called failure, this might be the most easy and viable alternative available. Just be sure to say, "I WANT AS THIN BUT AS "COVERED" A COATING AS POSSIBLE!!!!"

Thanks for the help, guys!

I did a crappy rolling job, but I have some assistance on the spraying this time, and think we can do a MUCH better job.

On a side note- I watched CSI:Miami last night and the Goo is getting better. (Not the rolling job, but the Goo effect itself.) The image is enhanced in contrast and definitely smoother in the places I didn't screw up- so I think the Light Fusion screen should be spectacular.

How did you get that mirror info so fast, Mississippi Man?!? Thanks a TON!

My little Goo experiment seems to coincide with your comment about the redundancy of further increasing CR with gray to improve black levels- the Goo had very little effect on the black of the projector, but did somehow enhance the brightness of the image hence the increased CR perception we had during CSI. Colors were a little more vibrant on the goo as well.

I really think the LF screen will be a winner and I will follow your instructions and PM you before we start spraying!

And I will get screenies when all is said and done!

But doing the WalMart thing is not a bad idea- it would be easy to do and cheap! Plus, I need the paint anyway.

I'll try wet sanding, too!

I was a bit puzzed by Goo myself (Digital Light Grey). Before projecting I assumed it would enhance blacks but have enough gain to combat color/white degredation.

Once projected though it did nothing for blacks.

Very strange since its clearly grey. I guess the 1.5ish gain enhances the colors and whites like a silver screen but has bad ambient light rejection? Don't know.

If Ken, you read this, do you have completed samples? Maybe I just screwed it up. I did find the sample I painted interesting enough to try again if a completed sample points to my poor painting abilities.

ToddMcF2002,

.....you can PM Ken by clicking on his "PM" icon. He'll respond promptly, I'm sure.

Some points to ponder;

Baring the obvious differences in the actual components, Goo & MMud have one distinct difference.

Goo uses a Thick Base coat, with a very translucent Top Coat.

MMud, after mixing, applies as a single layer combining both properties.

The result is a "film" of paint that both reflects AND diffuses light, the more desirable "rejections" being those that fall under the "defused" category, and the "reflections" coming from a surface that catches and reflects a very high degree of light, yet allows a greater amount of light than would be expected ..., out through the back.

Light Fusion depends on the combination of a highly reflective surface, (Glass Mirror, Acrylic Mirror, Reflective Mylar Overlay.) and a surface coating with all of the prescribed MMud properties. An added benefit of a Plastic mirror is the 1/8" gap. Mylar alternatives do not posses this atribute.

But that is not to say that other coatings don't have something to offer to the equation. I myself personally urged Ken to try Goo on a acrylic mirror. Some mention was made on Forum that my results with First Surface Mirrors ( They are the "Richest" kind." Most expensive too!!! ) might have suggested that the same be attempted using Goo.

A good idea. I've never advocated anything else too Ken. His product was my inspiration 2 years ago. Said so several times.

The main difference between "priming" the mirror the coating it, and applying several individual coats, is that prior to "Mirrors", Covering first was essential before "Finishing". With a Mirror, the reflective surface is exactly what you want, and if you cover it completely, it ceases to be a relevant issue, save providing you a damn smooth surface on which to paint a Goo, or for that matter, a MMUd screen.

Both have something to offer.

Todd, the very nature of Goo, (...and all paints actually) is that as they "cure", their properties change. With both Goo & MMud, the "toughening up" or "contraction" of the space between the paint's collective molecular mass as it dries sharpens the image, reduces "shifting" if present, and reflects more efficiently.

Your screen will reach 95% of it's potential in about a month from it's last coat, if the humidity isn't too high, that is.

Immaturely dry screens look fuzzy. I take it as an extreme validation of the plain 'ol Light Fusion w MMud/Plastic Mirror approach, that the screen I finished painting only the night before could show as well as it did at the spring Canuk Shoot out the next morning. But I did "preview" it late the night before at 3 hours old and by doing so, slept easy.

But your results may vary.

It boils down to this. Substituting Goo for MMud w/Light Fusion would mean;

Spending 3 times as much for paint, and receiving about 1 -1/3 quart less.
Spraying just as many coats over all, or more as it takes with MMud.
Trying to achieve not one but two distinct finishes over the mirror.

One must "cover" without totally dampening the effects of the mirror. The Top coat must not hinder the reflection from the Base Coat.

You have twice as much of a chance to "muck" it up, and at thrice the expense.

That's why even I have't yet gave it a whirl.

But there are others who have been urged to do so, merely because they had leftover Goo. To date, I haven't heard a peep.

If one someone with HVLP equipment, the Mirror, and the skill, would attempt the above with Goo CRT White (...ditch the "Gray" in this case.) I'm sure the results would be noteworthy.

Until then...., it off to the 'Depot. 'Eh?

PS...,

I'm going to have my Auto Body shop try painting one, under my whip of course!

I am currently working on:

A 4x1 ft mirror (approx) with MMud (Light Fusion)
A 4x1 ft piece of parkland (approx) with MMud
A 4x1 ft piece of parkland (approx) unmolested
AND
My Goo Digital Gray painted parkland (80x45").

I can't wait to lay them side-by-side and experiment late this evening!

Anyone paint Sintra with SSWOP yet? Did you prime it first? I just picked up a sheet today. I'll probably try it natural at first and then paint one side. The nice thing about Sintra is that it's coated the same on both sides. I might be able to use the SSWOP side for movies and then turn it around for sports.

Thought I would just go off topic a bit and link to another post I made showing my non-screen use of leftover Behr Silver Screen on the ceilings and trim. I think it looks great and the extra red is certainly not an issue with my walls painted Ripe Current. My camera skills aren't very good but you get the idea. Sooner or later will be trying a Light fusion screen to replace my SS/SM link to home theater setup thread

I realize most will want something darker than Silver Screen if painting the ceiling - but the WAF was there and she would have nothing darker than this (SS is considerably darker than the ceiling white that was there before)

Guys, you might want to check out this thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...postid=4147811

Based on my environment at least, I think there is a much better answer than SSWOP for boosting black levels.

Well- I tried the MMud on the mirror. Did one coat, let it dry, second coat, let it dry, third coat. The MMud looks very nice- BUT- I must have used too much. I put the mirror up in the center of my screen and the only difference from the good section of the Goo Gray Lite is that the image is marginally brighter. How thin do these coats of MMud have to be?

I did a very good job rolling the mirror, though! I learned a lot with my first mistake. But I know I haven't seen LF. Did I miss another step? Or was my mirror unsuitable (plastic framed mirror form home depot $6.99)? My coatings must have been too thick- how can you tell what is the right amount of MMud??

Ryan,

When you roll instead of spray, your applying at least 3 times as much paint with each coat as you would with a spray gun. 2 rolled coats, and you should have let it dry and tried shooting an image. When letters and grahpics presented by the PJ's Menu look sharp instead of fuzzy, your there.

But your beyond that, so try wet sanding the surface to reduce the thickness of that top layer. Use the wet sanding directions contained with the various posts about Light Fusion.

Or email me for a copy of 'em.

Just remember, the overall properties of Goo and MMud are the same, so in comparisons there should not be as drastic a difference as there would be when comparing other less similar paints. Except as far as your Wallets' concerned.

Next time, take it a little slower and check out you image quality after you've reached the point where obvious reflective traites of the mirror are virtually gone. Do the "Letters" test at that point.

do it right, and your Golden.

what is the point of the black boarders? is it just for looks?

To prevent light spill - better CR and "picture framing" - improve eye focus. Compare your black versus white computer monitor, which has better constrast? IMO.

Thanks MississippiMan, I will try it!

Okay-

I easily stripped the paint off the mirror with a putty knife and re-coated with a thin coat of MMud (after cleaning the mirror). I will follow Mississippi Man's directions and report my results.

I think this will be MUCH better.

I can also see that spraying would likely be FAR easier than rolling as far as getting the quantities and smoothness optimized.

I have a question. It seems that everyone always builds a frame for their screen and either paints it black or covers it with felt. Is there any reason I can't just paint my screen material (Sintra) with flat black paint for the border? What's the down side to this idea? I want to have a two-sided screen and this would make it easier for me to flip between sides.

I think by framing the screen, your eye's can sense a little bit of the depth making the image look like it's set into the wall.

Not sure how good painting the edges of the screen would look, you could always frame boths sides and glue them together. That way you could flip it.

Guys;

The black border both controls light overspill, and it enhances the eye's perception of Black, If the Screen's border edges are the "Blackest" black, the eyes will see all blacks contained within the image area between the edges "as black as", .....or darn close.

Far closer than any "non-black" border ever could.

That's the LAW.

Obey it.

I have continued experimentation with the mirror in an attempt to create Light Fusion.

Following MsipiMan's advice, I applyed a thin layer of MM on the mirror and let dry. I decided to look at the first coat under the projector to see what I could see. I fired up Pirates of the Caribbean and got a taste of what LF is doing, but one thin layer clearly isn't enough (as I knew it wouldn't be, but I wanted to be safe this time). The area on the mirror was MUCH brighter than the rest of the Goo screen, but also very blurry and washed out. My wife popped in and said, "I don't like that. Darker is better than lighter." I tried to explain that subsequent coats need yet be applyed, but she remained skeptical and left to eat some cheerios or something.

Anyhoo I applied a second thin coat of MM and let dry. I then fired up Moulin Rouge to see what I could see. This second time was interesting- I was seeing better advantages of the brights and whites in comparison to the Goo, but also a rather large washout of dark scenes and still a bit blurry. Color was a little washed, too, but the bright areas were certainly contrast enhanced.

At this point I was afraid that this was it- Light Fusion. And I was disappointed. There were pros and cons about it at this point, but I knew ultimately I prefered the Goo. I started thinking that maybe a gray topcoat WOULD be better- and after a few hours of watching and waiting and putting on different clips, it occurred to me that I was not there yet. No way. Not after all the posts and screenshots displaying the marvel of LF.

So, with my heart in my throat, I applyed a final thin layer of MM. I assisted the drying process with a hairdryer on low and was careful not to disturb the paint. Looking at the glass now, though, I was afraid that It was now too thick- yet something was different: I could still just barely make out the reflective properties of the mirror when light hit it just right. So I put it up and fired up the projector...

EUREKA!!!

Immediately as the Optoma logo appeared on the screen I could see several important details:

1. The white text was glowing slightly giving it a plasma like appearance.
2. The black background was only slightly lighter on the mirror than on the Goo.
3. The red color on the optoma logo also glowed slightly, just not so much as the white. Very shagadelic .
4. Screen door effect had been minimalized substantially. Usually SDE shows it's ugly face in text on the screen, but it had been greatly diluted by the mirror.

NOW for the test- I fired up LOTR-FOTR EXT and waited paitiently. I selected the shire scene where Frodo meets Gandalf (commonly used on this forum) and IMMEDIATELY I knew I had it: LIGHT FUSION.

The LF portion of the screen had more punch. Bright portions of the film such as sky, clouds, reflected light were magnified increasing contrast substantially and giving the overall look a nice glow- again similar to plasma. Images were clearer, SDE was virtually gone, colors bright and vivid. But now you're thinking, what about blacks?

This is the part that amazes me. For some reason, having the right amount of MM allows for blacks to stay black. You can look at this screen and say, "How much more black could this get and the answer would be none. None more black."

Okay, there is a marginal give of the deepness of the black compared to the Lite Grey Goo but I do mean MARGINAL at best. It really amazes me. The difference between the two-coat offering and the final three-coat offering was like going from night and day to night and night!

A great example of the amazing power of LF is the shot of Gandalf talking to Frodo that we've all seen a million times on this forum. The bright areas around his hat glow, while the dark areas maintain their richness and detail. Plasma-like is the best way I can describe it.

In my excitement I put on Attack of the Clones- for while I hate this movie in every way I must admire the terrific transfer. In short, lightsabers never looked so good. LF does Yoda proud.

I cannot wait to build a full-scale Light Fusion screen.

Thank you, Mississippi Man and CMRA. I have seen the light.

Your motivating me to get my butt in gear and try this - especially since I have almost a Gallon of MMud on hand LOL!

I'm sure percieved black levels will be great since everything else is glowing. I'm fine with that. Thanks for the motivation.

- Todd

Watch it. When I made that comment last December, the wolves were at the door almost immeadiatly! "It cannot be so! Your Hyping the results!"
...and some comments were a whole lot worse. But both I & Light Fusion have survived to shine on. Glad you could join us!



Thank YOU Ryan,

...for showing others how following directions with at least some care will achieve the results intended for Light Fusion. Your synopsis was a great read, and if I wasn't MMan and already convinced, the wieght of your words would certainly be a deciding factor.

If you think you've mastered the art of Rolling well enough, then Roll Away.
If you do decide to spray, just maintain exactly the same criteria throughout.

Todd-

Try it with a cheap mirror like you mentioned before! My experiment was really YOUR idea! And if you do get the Mud on too thick, removing the paint is very easy with a putty knife.

One slight downside to LF, and very slight to me but possibly important to others, it seems that the grey goo and probably most gray screens reject ambient light a little better than LF. But this is nitpicking at this point. Plus, my projector is a mere 800 lumens. I am actually tempted to turn off the energy saver and let it burn at 1000 lumens! Now if you're shooting a projector with 1500 or 2000 lumens or what-have-you, you're gonna have a 92" plasma screen. Amazing.

It will definately be a test mirror. I'll still need to convince the wife about a real mirror regardless of cost. She is on board to allow a commercial screen but the mere mention of a mirror raised a eyebrow and a smirk. Got to admit, it sounds a bit nuts.

Anyway - if the sample screams success I'm sure all will be well.

I wish I had! Unfortunately, I do not have a digital camera at the moment. I will have one for my big project, however, and will do just that, bcortez! That's a great idea. And sorry if this thread had drifted off topic a bit...

I have been telling friends about this concept and they are stunned by how much sense it makes! I have a good friend who is a photographer and LOVES the concept. He wishes HE'D thought of it!

Todd-
It would be really interesting if you managed to do MMud on one protion of the mirror and the Cloud Nine formula on the other- wonder what would happen and what differences there'd be?

Tonight I show the wife. This is the REAL test.

Man, EVERY thread turns into a Light Fusion thread around here

Thanks for the post, Ryan, and thanks for the formulas, MM and CMRA. If I had the dough I'd try it. Maybe after Christmas I'm doing alright with my x1 and a SS/WOP screen, I can afford to wait a lil.