Nashville, TN - OTA - Page 103

What a pleasant suprise when I came home today there was a new station on my cm7000pal.

It was 54-3 out of Huntsville with METV it looks very promising watching MASH right now, also caught a little bit of the Rifleman

Hi guys. Sometime over the weekend, we've lost signal to WTVF on the UHF translator channel 50. Anyone else having this issue? Thanks.

Probably getting ready to switch things over to channel 25 for the main channels and use ch 5 for the translator. I see where last couple of weeks they got a CP for using ch 5 as a translator at 3 kW and temporary DS for channel 25 at 130 kW. Let us know if you're getting anything on 25. I'd be too far away to pick it up.

Oh and Trip if you read this, since WTVF is only going use 5 as a translator from now on and only at 3 kW, could WMC in Memphis which also uses 5 ask for a power increase if they wanted one and would they get it?

WMC has actually applied to relocate to channel 17. It is pending with the FCC. That said, I imagine they could go for more power if they wanted, but they're already running 34.5 kW on channel 5, which is pretty close to the 45 kW limit.

WTVF is planning to ask for 22 kW on channel 5 before all is said and done, but has currently asked for 3 kW since that's the theoretical limit.

I imagine it's too early for WTVF to be actually building anything at this point. I got word when they were looking at antenna pricing and I don't think enough time has elapsed for anything to have arrived on-site yet, though I could certainly be wrong.

- Trip

Talked to the engineer at Ch. 5 today...said that both tubes on the ch. 50 antenna crashed and burned. They were hoping to have it back up by tomorrow night (Wed). Also asked him about 25. Said it would probably not be up until early fall.

Didn't the FCC contemplate raising the limits for VHF as part of the incentive auctions? Funny how WTVF's approval to go to 25 seemed to be much quicker than WMC's approval to move to 17.


That's good for channel5 5 to be 22 kW since I doubt we can get 25 very reliably here since they chose to use a directional antenna that doesn't favor us. Which sucks since I was looking forward to WTVF being on channel 25. That's my biggest beef with stations around here many of them use directional antennas or use lower power than they could. If everyone used omni-directional antennas and broadcast at 1000 kW( except for VHF of course ) I wouldn't have any issues.


Wasn't there another station that was using 25? Why couldn't they just buy there? they aren't using it anymore? Also why did WTVF file a DS for 130 kW on channel 25? What is that about? It was approved a couple of weeks ago by the way.

Funny, indeed. It's almost as though the FCC doesn't want them to move to UHF.


WTVF's 25 pattern is barely directional. Less than a 3 dB drop in the deepest null.

There's no such thing as a truly omni directional antenna. I would be willing to bet that if you looked at the true pattern of some of your "omni" locals, you would find they aren't as uniform as you think.


Because plugging a 50 kW IOT transmitter into an antenna rated for 1 kW input would cause it to blow up?


Because they have to take down the top-mounted channel 5 antenna to replace it with the new channel 25 antenna. The STA will be a temporary stop-gap to keep at least most viewers covered while they do that work.

- Trip

RTN is showing an eighth channel now on Rabbit Ears (PBJ), but I'm still not pulling it in with the rest. Any news from anyone? Also, any word on the switch to 17? I assume it's still being held up by Daystar's financial woes but don't know for sure.

Also, I read on wbbj's website that there is a push to put a Me-Tv full time subchannel on. Be interesting if they relented and did that...I would love it!

Been kind of quiet in here as far as Nashville stations, except for Channel 5. WKRN still has not put their third subchannel on either. Why are they all so SLOW in bringing some diverse entertainment on these subchannels? I would think they could use the extra revenue.

new to OTA here in mid-tn, located in bellevue so right near metro. so it sounds like NBC is just a pita to grab OTA even with an outdoor antenna? i just have a DB8 up on the roof, but i get everything in except NBC in any shape or form.

The DB8 is a UHF antenna while WSMV, WNPT, and WRTN-LD are all VHF signals. Without a VHF component on your antenna or a separate VHF antenna, your reception of VHF signals is hit or miss.

- Trip

Well Bellevue is on the west side of Nashville. Without knowing his exact location I can say he's about 7 miles from WSMV. The main thing is that being so close the difference between WSMV and WKRN is 60 degrees. In fact the difference between WTVF and WKRN is about 70-75 degrees. So really I guess it depends on where he is aiming his antenna. WSMV should be one of his strongest stations. Maybe he is using a pre-amp which would be a no-no. In fact I would say a DB 8 would be overkill especially mounted on a roof. Perhaps a TVfool report from him would help.

I'd rather WKRN dump their weather channel if they are going to add Live Well. Last thing we need is even more signal degradation.

Once WTVF repairs their channel 50 transmitter which went down earlier this week, you should be able to get that signal by re-scanning.

They're supposed relocate to UHF 25 later this year, so the low-VHF issue will become moot.

Channel 50 has been back up for two days now.

Thanks for the info. Not using a pre-amp, so maybe i just have more playing around to do.

Well first of all the eff power in my direction goes from 1000 kW to 528 kW so a 2.8 dB difference. In my area that can mean a lot. But what is even worse is that the difference between WTVF on ch 5( 22 kW ) and on channel 25 is 12.8 dB( according to TVfool ). So even if you take that extra 2.8 dB if they used a non-directional antenna so I got the full 1000 kW, WTVF on ch 5 is still 10 dB better. So I guess for my area VHF is just better. It seems weird that it would take 10,000 kW on ch 25 to equal what ch 5 does with 22 kW. TvFool's math must be off.

Also WNPT on RF 8 is at the same site as WKRN which is on RF 27 and despite only broadcasting at 17.65 kW( which is low for even hi-VHF ) I get in WNPT better than WKRN which broadcasts at the full 1000 kW. So that's kind of weird too.

Once again, there is no such thing as a non-directional antenna. There are only antennas that get close which the FCC allows to be licensed as such. I can't find the true pattern for WNPT, but I did find WTVF-5, WKRN, and WSMV; according to the model numbers I matched up, none are perfect circles in the horizontal plane. WTVF's proposed 25 antenna is close enough to an omni that if it wasn't for interference protection toward WPTY in Memphis which requires the actual pattern, that antenna could easily be filed as an omni with the FCC.

Here are some true antenna patterns that are noted in the FCC database as being omni or are representations of what one of the Nashville stations looks like.

http://www.rabbitears.info/pattern.p...tion=0&erp=989 (KARK; this is what WTVF-5 looks like.)
http://www.rabbitears.info/pattern.p...ion=0&erp=42.1 (WTHR; this is what WSMV looks like.)
http://www.rabbitears.info/pattern.p...on=0&erp=25.17 (KBMT)
http://www.rabbitears.info/pattern.p...on=0&erp=59.89 (WOLO)
http://www.rabbitears.info/pattern.p...tion=0&erp=246 (WEEK; this is what WKRN looks like.)

Bear in mind that I have no idea how the stations oriented the antennas, so the rotation may vary.

A station with an omni-compliant pattern typically only files it as a directional antenna if there is an interference issue, such as WTVF-25 and WPTY.


If you don't have line of sight, then VHF will theoretically bend around the obstruction better. There is nothing off about it.

- Trip

Yes Trip I know. It's called "THE GIST". When I say non-directional you know what I mean, so just accept that and move on. No need to get all OCD about it.


Memphis is 200 miles away from Nashville. So why would there have to be interference protection? I though the limit was 170 miles.


Well so much for the theory that UHF is better for digital then if low VHF at 22 kW can be 10X more powerful than UHF at 1000 kW.

If you got it, then I'm not sure why you repeated the same argument over again.

What I told you is that no station has a non-directional antenna pattern, and that even the stations which are noted as being such have variances of 3 dB or more in their patterns. WTVF could, theoretically, have filed this antenna pattern as an omni and you would be none the wiser, except for the fact that it would have an interference issue if it were filed that way.

Or think about it this way, WTVF could have filed the same pattern as WKRN and could have one of their nulls pointed at you, but if it was rotated slightly so that wasn't the case, then one of your neighbors a few miles down the road would be in that null instead of you by virtue of the fact that there is no such thing as a truly omni antenna. Again, you would be none the wiser in that case.

3 dB can make a difference, but usually doesn't. If you have less than a 3 dB margin before the signal stops decoding, your signal is likely too unreliable to depend upon due to atmospheric variations and outside interference sources.


The distance limits were for analog. In digital, there are distance limits on paper, but the actual determining factor is the Longley-Rice interference study. One full-power station cannot create new interference to more than 0.5% of the population of another full-power or Class A station. Even with the directional pattern noted, WPTY receives 0.2711% new interference from the proposed WTVF-25 using the antenna on file. I would assume that an "omni" would increase that above 0.5%.


It's like anything else: a trade-off. I worked at WDBJ during the transition, and I took plenty of calls from people in the mountains who could receive just 7 and 10 over the air in analog, and said that when they scanned in digital, all they could pull in was 15-1 (WBRA-3). That doesn't mean that channel 3 was better in all situations, it meant that for them, channel 3 worked, while UHF stations did not.

In theory, assuming a low-noise environment, outdoor receiving antenna, appropriate amount of power, proper bandwidth, and the stars are in alignment, AM can have better coverage than FM. And yet, the AM band is losing listeners every day. That's because most people don't have low-noise environments or proper outdoor receiving antennas for AM, and many AM stations are not 50 kW and do not have full-bandwidth audio that lets them sound good instead of muddy.

- Trip

I too would like to know when WRTN will move to 17... been patiently waiting for a loong time. I should be able to get it in lavergne but for a couple of years it has been impossible to get even with outdoor antenna (a vhf tuned to the ch).. Im anxious.
If Atlanta can have a WANN with subchannels galore and even radio stations on... Nashville should be a subchannel lover's heaven... huntsville is ahead of us arrgh..
Im now expecting the HDTV arguments again... they always pop up.. but bring on the subchannels. I want quantity! If i want picture quality thats what the internet is for...

Listen if one station wants to be nothing but a bunch of SD subchannels that's fine. What I don't want is the current network stations to be loaded with subchannels as it degrade quality. Some us us didn't buy our HDs to watch sub-par HD. So yea if WRTN wants to be the station with 8 subs I don't care. And speaking of internet most of those old shows you enjoy and expect on all these subchannels can be seen online for free or bought cheaply on DVD.

I can't get in ch 44 but all they have is Jewelry Channel and A1 both in SD. Why they don't add MeTV as a subchannel or something for extra revenue who knows. It's not like they don't have the bandwidth. Same thing does with channel 31 which only has HSN in SD.

Yes there will be arguments on the degraded video but I have of course noticed that most of the multiple subchannels look iffy on my 47in rptv but are almost perfect on my my 27in led tv of course due to the smaller screen

It is eerie watching the rifleman, twilight zone etc almost crystal clear as compared to when I last saw them on analog tv

I can live with it

I've been watching a few things on WRTN and have no issues with their subchannels. But what they are showing really wouldn't improve much one way or the other. However, I'd hate for the network broadccast channels to add a bunch of subchannels and degrade their HiDef shows, especially sports. Want my football as good as possible. LOL

I'm all for choices and believe there is room for some of each.

This is my rabbitears map for my house



I have this antenna

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/...V-antenna.html


Should i just aim for the center when aiming my antenna? Or should i aim for the densest cluster? I am new to OTA, just turned off directv yesterday. Sick of paying $70/m for tv.

Cozmo,
I suggest you use the tool at TVFOOL.COM to get a better read on your location and your antenna needs.

http://tvfool.com/

Your information doesn't even give distance.

Then, I would post the results to the AVS HDTV Technical forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=25

The people there understand the TVCHARTS and can help you a lot even though they may not be from this area.

One thing I can tell you is we have 3 channels that are still VHF: 4, 5, and 8. But 5 does have a translator channel on 25. Your antenna doesn't do too well with VHF channels so unless you are real close, you may have trouble with them even if you aim right at them.

However one thing I've found is the charts give you a good starting point but some trial and error in aiming and antennas may be necessary.

Thanks, ill do that. I get 5 and 8 very very well. We are getting a little stutter on 4 every 30 seconds or so but I have not aimed the antenna at all. Just stuck it up there.

I noticed yesterday afternoon that I couldn't get WRTN and still couldn't this morning before I left for work. Normally, I get a pretty good picture. Anyone else having trouble getting their signal?

I've been having trouble from time to time for about a week. Also, the .8 channel is still not being transmitted apparently...can't lock it in with the others.

My issue regarding WRTN was on my end. One of my HDHomeRun tuners must have hiccupped. I switched to the other tuner and received WRTN fine so I rebooted the HDHomeRun and all is now fine.

Hi All,

I'm brand new to the forum. Thanks for all of the great posts.

I've been researching antenna's to find the best fit for an attic mount in Spring Hill that will pick up all VHF and UHF channels out of Nashville.

If the channel 5 move to UHF is a sure thing for this fall, I'm not worried about doing without it until then.

All suggestions are much appreciated.