Native rate master thread

For those with Mitsubishi PD5010, Marantz PD5010, or NEC 50MP2 plasma displays, here are the timings I am using via DVI;

H-shift=256
H-size=1360
H-front=64
H-sync=112
H-back=256
total= 1792

V-shift=3
V-size=768
V-front=3
V-sync=6
V-back=18
total=795

Plasma MUST be first adjusted using the analog connection and set to"wide2." Make all your adjustments to the Iscan timings, then:

Switched to DVI while switching the corresponding output on the Iscan. Only minor adjustments can be made while using the DVI input on the plasma, any major changes to the timings forces the Mitsubishi back into trying to scale the image. When this occurs the image is changed by the Mitsubishi to 1280x768, regardless of what you feed it via the Iscan. I suspect the Marantz and NEC models will do the same.

Do you think the NEC 50 inch will/should work for the NEC 61 MP1 ?
Will these work in a CS-2 ?

Here are the parameters I used to get 1:1 mapping on the Fujitsu P50HXA10US we have in our lab:

H-Shift 144
H-Size 1360
H-Front 176
H-Sync-112
H-Back 144
H-Total 1792

V-Shift 8
V-Size 768
V-Front 8
V-Sync 6
V-Back 13
V-Total 795

The P50 will only give 1:1 mapping at a resolution of 1360x768, even though its native resolution is 1365x768. Also, this only works at 60 Hz. As nearly as I can determine, the P50 cannot do 1:1 mapping at 50 Hz.

Note that these are not the only parameter settings which will give you 1:1 mapping. The P50 appears to have a tolerance range around many of these settings which still gives you 1:1 pixel mapping. When adjusting a setting, I sometimes notice that nothing happens for many adjustment steps, and then the P50 will sort of snap into a different mode. On some of these you may need overshoot the setting slightly to get the P50 mode change, and then back it off a bit.

Other settings appear to be interactive. I.e., you can't get one right until you have one of the others correct. The horizontal scan rate is one of these. If you're too far off on the scan rate, then you may have trouble with the horizontal size.

These timings were produced with an iScan HD, but I see no reason why they shouldn't work with any source capable of fine-grained timing adjustments.

- Dale Adams

[quote]Originally posted by Dale Adams
[b]
The P50 will only give 1:1 mapping at a resolution of 1360x768, even though its native resolution is 1365x768. Also, this only works at 60 Hz. As nearly as I can determine, the P50 cannot do 1:1 mapping at 50 Hz.

Note that these are not the only parameter settings which will give you 1:1 mapping. The P50 appears to have a tolerance range around many of these settings which still gives you 1:1 pixel mapping. When adjusting a setting, I sometimes notice that nothing happens for many adjustment steps, and then the P50 will sort of snap into a different mode. On some of these you may need overshoot the setting slightly to get the P50 mode change, and then back it off a bit.

Other settings appear to be interactive. I.e., you can't get one right until you have one of the others correct. The horizontal scan rate is one of these. If you're too far off on the scan rate, then you may have trouble with the horizontal size.
____________________________________________________________

This was the same for the Mitsubishi. It synced only at 1360x768 with 3 unused rows on the left and 2 on the right. And, it only synced at 60hz. I was able to get it to sync 1:1 on the analog connection at 1365x768, but it was not nearly as stable as that of the DVI.

I too noticed many of the settings had little affect on plasma, I had to make rather major adjustments as Dale said, then back them down to find the right setting. This was most noticeable with framerates.

Hard to say, the native rate is the same, but plasmas act so differently from one another. Take a look at Dale's settings on the Fujitsu and mine on the Mitsu. They both have the same native rate, but the settings are quite different.

Look at the owner's manual for the NEC and read the page on computer resolutions accepted, and what the plasma must be set to in order to accept each. You will note that it must be set to a certain screen format in order to display at it's native rate, ie, wide, true, full, etc. All depends what NEC calls their different screen formats.

Hi,

Sony HS20 setting wanted, please.

Does anyone have a detailed setting for the Series 6 Panasonic 50"ers? I believe all models (PHD6 et al) are identical, so any info would be greatly appreciated.

I ask particularly because I have a real suspicion that the panels are not true 1366x768 displays, as I have not been able to get accurate 1:1 pixel mapping at that resolution (on a 50PHD6 panel). The inflexibility of the series 6 DVI input is also a real headache.

Anyone?

These displays are 1366x768 pixels, you can connect a PC and count 'em yourself.

I have found the best way to connect DVDO iScan HD to my display is via analogue: this is because the display supports 48Hz, 50Hz and 60Hz (and variations thereof) at native resolution via analogue and is not limited to 60hz like DVI.

Once 1:1 pixel mapping is achieved, via adjusting the screen's horizontal/vertical size/position, the picture quality of analogue (be it on iScan HD or my HTPC) is almost indistinguishable from DVI even close up. Furthermore, at my seating position of 4m or so one can not see any difference in signal quality at all.

Judder is still visible though, and I don't want to be converting all my 50Hz material to 60Hz. Which is also why I used iScan HD's excellent 48Hz output for my Region1 movies: no nasty 3:2 pulldown judder.

Panasonic 50" Plasma @ 48Hz, 50Hz, or 60Hz (and +/- variations) via analogue connection:

H-shift=256
H-size=1366
H-front=64
H-sync=112
H-back=256
total= 1798

V-shift=3
V-size=768
V-front=3
V-sync=6
V-back=18
total=795

These are the "out the box" settings and they work perfectly.

DVI
DVI is notoriously difficult on Panny plasmas, with the board supporting:
480p, 720p and 1080i @ 60Hz
576p @ 50Hz

1366x768 @ 60Hz is also listed (as is 852x480 @ 60Hz for SD panels) as working out the box but some people have trouble getting this to work properly. I'll see if I can find some timings for DVI too @ 60Hz too.

StooMonster

Thanks a million, StooMonster.

I'll look out for the DVI settings if you can get 'em. Incidentally, analogue out of the box 1366 res doesn't work for me unfortunately. I have to alter the H+V positioning considerably to center the picture (without any stretching on the plasma side). Even then, there is a thin 'dead' border around the image (all sides), which is what lead me to suspect the panel as not being a true 1366X768 (perhaps a few pixels more on each side). This is the case whether in video output or test pattern display.

I'm a bit confused ...BTW, I can confirm firsthand that the DVI input takes native res - 1366X768 @60Hz - I've tried it with a CenterStage CS2. However, for some reason, it will only take XGA from the iScanHD - not native res. ANalogue works fine at all resolutions and refresh rates...

Any ideas??

DVDO iScan HD is ideal because of the excellent test patterns, and I have similar ones to set up my HTPC.

Set the iScan HD to default timing setting for 1366x768, then adjust the horizontal/vertical size/position on the plasma display; it's really easy on Panasonic plasmas (unlike the Pioneer ones for example).

Getting 1:1 match on analogue VGA is really easy, three simple steps:

1. Use horizontal size control on |||| test pattern until the "rainbows" go away, they are different colour interference patterns as you pass the centre position (either getting horizontally bigger or smaller); in centre setting there is no interference pattern.

2. Use vertical size control on === test pattern until the "rainbows" go away and you've got solid black'n'white lines.

3. Use horizontal an vertical position on iScanHD's first test pattern until image has single pixel white line round the edge.

This takes seconds: one-to-one pixel match is demonstrable on every test pattern.

NOTE:

The screen has a number of "memories" for different resolutions/refresh rates set to it, once you've done this once it stays.

Super-Advanced Users do this within the Service Menu so that once the horizontal/vertical size/position is set to 1:1 match it becomes the "normalize" setting in the "Picture Position" menu.

As I said above this is with analogue, the DVI does not let you do this. DVI really is poor on Panny plasmas, but their analogue is stunning and the PQ once one-to-one set is almost indistinguishable from DVI -- they must have good ADCs or over-sample or both .

Black borders
Once you have 1:1 match on screen with test patterns you may still see black borders with some video sources: typically thin at top and bottom and fatter at the sides, the edges may even be blurred or wavey. This is where the source isn't using the entire bandwidth available to it, however, this is solved simply with "Overscan" setting that can be increased until the image files the entire 1:1 matched display.

Pioneer 50" MEX plasma
I've also set up analogue and DVI with one of these plasma screens. Again timings were straight out the box defaults for the native 1280x768 pixel resolution, but the challenge here is the internal frame buffer of the screen is fixed to 70Hz.

Via analogue this was a simple fix with iScan HD because we set PAL and NTSC material to Frame Rate Adjust to 70Hz; DVI was more of a problem because it would only accept 60Hz, and then it's internal frame buffer converted it to 70Hz.

Still, both analogue and DVI were 1:1 matched at 1280x768.

Again with these Pio screens I'd recommend analogue connection because of the ability to display the native resolution at the plasma's fixed internal refresh rate.

HTH.

StooMonster

StooMonster,

What about the new 4340 and 504 PIO? Does it also only do 70hz frame buffer?

Thanks
Oliver

I am afraid that I have no idea Oliver, because for Pioneer plasmas I only have access to my friend's 50" MXE display, which is why I was able to judder-test only that model.

We ran judder tests via analogue and DVI using the PC judder-test program, the quest to find the Pio's Frame Buffer Hz of the was the inspiration for suggesting to DVDO that iScan HD should have a judder-tester.

Sorry I can't help more, hopefully someone will post Frame Buffer results as well as settings.

StooMonster

I believe that you need to go to 72 Hz (NTSC) or 75 Hz (PAL) on DVI to be able to get rid of the problem with 70Hz. However I can not tell if that will help, I think one needs to go into 72.001 or something close to that to be able to get the 503MXE (503CMX in US) to work properly. Anyway you definitly needs to go above 70 Hz.

Okay, we could only get a picture on DVI at 60Hz and just blank screens at 72Hz and 75Hz etc.

However, even if you can input higher refresh rates via DVI, won't they still be downconverted to 70Hz by the internal frame buffer like the analogue signals are?

Next time I visit my friend, we'll recheck again.

StooMonster

StooMonster: I think you need to get the refresh more like 71.928 or 71.923. Some information can be read in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...01#post2361301

However, I can not say what is needed for PAL material, I have it written down somewhere - I just can't find it.... So 75 Hz might do it, it may not.

There might stil be problems with a couple of frames/movie beeing handeld badly, but nothing big.........

you guys are all way out of my league...which is good because maybe you can help. Looking for whatever information I can get on anyone's experience on getting 1:1 mapping with a Sony 50" plasma. I have the new KE50XS910, which is aimed for consumer HD use. Because of this it's almost impossible to get any technical data, along with the fact that has only been out a couple of months. I believe it uses the same panel as the high end Sony 50" XBR.

Any thoughts on what to try to accomplish 1:1 would be greatly appreciated!

thanks!

pf

bump

I would appreciate anyone who has the Panny 42PWD6UY to respond. Thanks.

Pat hasn't got a response and I would like to know the answer to his question as well. The reason for the bump instead of a new post.

Exactly the same idea as Stoomonster's 50" settings, but using the 852x480 default option (PLA1)

I actually prefer the 720P option via analogue (but that's not native res )

DVI native for the PWD6 is a bit of a nightmare, best go analogue as Stoo mentions...or even better 720P

JJ

Same here... please.

JP.

Has anyone managed to get the Panasonic 50" 6 series working at 1:1 via DVI yet?

Looking for 1366 x 768, I realise this will have to be at 60/59.94Hz

I need:
V Sync, V Front, V Total, H Sync, H Front and H Total, also the plasma serice menu settings for H Pos/V Pos/H Size/V Size.

I've tried to get it to work but I end up with the image shifted so far over that I can't get it centered using scaler or plasma controls??

Cheers

Ryan

Check the main Iscan HD thread on this, maybe around page 65 or so. I know someone else asked this question and got a reply. You can also do a search in that particular thread. Good luck

Thanks for the reply, had a look and I do remember the thread, however that was regarding the iScan HD inparticular and the Fuji 50", I know that the Fuji and the Panasonic use the same glass but the electronics will be different. So does anyone have Panasonic 50" 6 series details, and if possible from one of the new Lumagens??

Cheers

Ryan

Dale (or any other knowledgeable member):

You mention the 1:1 mapping parameters for the iScan HD and the Fujitsu P50XHA10US.

I have an iScan HD and the Fujitsu P55XHA30WS. I've read similar things about this panel and the one you calibrated. A few questions:

1. Would you use the DVI or the component output of the iScan HD? I'm running SDI out from my DVD player to the iScan HD SDI input, and my inclination is DVI, but I wonder if there are any known setup shortcomings of DVI on this monitor.

2. Should I start with the same parameters you used to achieve 1:1 and tweak from there, using the advanced menu options you've set? I read in an article that the max res of my panel (like yours) over DVI was 1360X768, not the physical res of 1366X768.

3. Can you give me the best method/tips for achieving 1:1 pixel mapping using the iScan HD if (2) isn't a good idea? I'm willing to tweak myself, but a little bit of wisdom would save me time. Do I have to switch back and forth between TP 1-3 and the adjutment parameters??? What do I look for, and are there any other things (order of adjustment, weird behavior, etc.). Again, I believe my set and yours should behave similarly.

4. How about FRC? Should I try to tweak this for 60Hz 3:2 pulldown? Does DVI vs. Component likely make a difference in available FQ states (e.g. 48 and 72Hz or Unlocked)? If I'm looking at TP6 for adjustment, am I able to see how it would behave for a 3:2 vs. 2:2 60Hz source? I assume all my NTSC sources will be 60Hz ....

I know that's a lot - but your help woud be appreciated!

-Adam

Just wanted to let any other folks hear about my experience getting 1:1 with the iScan HD and the Fujitsu P55XHA30WS over DVI (the 55" model).

All you need to do is:

1. Make sure Screen Orbiter is OFF
2. Make sure the Fujitsu is set to DVI-2 (for video), and DVDO output is set to DVIV.
3. Set the user mode to advanced
4. Use the same settings Dale from DVDO used for the 50" Fujitsu, which are:

H-Shift 144
H-Size 1360
H-Front 176
H-Sync-112
H-Back 144
H-Total 1792

V-Shift 8
V-Size 768
V-Front 8
V-Sync 6
V-Back 13
V-Total 795

If things look freaky as you're changing the settings, don't dispair - it WILL snap into the perfect 1:1 once you nail the numbers.

You WILL only be able to use 60Hz lock for 60Hz sources. Other FRC's don't work at 1:1, but I see no judder from 60Hz film sources.

You can confirm the resoultion in the INFO window which will show you 1360X768. That means 3 unused pixels on the left and right. You can see in Test Pattern 3 that ever square in the checkerbox is a perfect pixel, no more and no less.

I use an SDI-modded Denon 3910 to the SDI input of the iScan HD, and found you need to use an SDI line offset value of 13. Also, I needed to set overscan by 1, and then Horizontal Pan by 2 to get the image dead-on perfect.

Now, it's a totally amazing image. Definitely worth it, in my book.

I've got the iScan HD on loan and will switch it out for an HD+ in a month or so - will report back then if I notice any config differences (doubt it), and how it looks with HD DVI HDCP input sources at 1:1.

Hope that helps someone else!

-Adam

Anyone using a Mitsubishi Medalion 1080?