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Londo's Toshiba RD-XS32 dissection thread.. - Page 2  

post #31 of 647
When you have a little time, it'd be interesting to see another screen grab comparison with more black in it
post #32 of 647
Thread Starter 
zenith2525..

already on my 'to do' list.... you should see more by the end of the weekend..
post #33 of 647
Please let us know exactly what settings were used (both playback and recording) for BOTH the recording and playback, as well as the source unit(s). There are many ways to accidentally mask the effects of this problem, which is the issue a lot of us were running into... of course, I assume the opposite is true, and you can accidentally cause the problem to happen trying so many different things. ;)

(which is part of why I try not to let it bug me! It's not as cut and dried as "the discs look bad" -- it's "under some conditions, depending on some other issues, you might see a problem" :) )
post #34 of 647
Thread Starter 
on the above shot, the XS32 was set of 'defaults' of the box.
the E80 was set for the accepted 'input darker'

the player was a Philips 727
post #35 of 647
Do you know if the Philips has a black level adjustment and what that was set at?
post #36 of 647
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by jmscott42
Do you know if the Philips has a black level adjustment and what that was set at?
Philips was set at defaults
post #37 of 647
Do you know what that default is? Some players default to 0IRE and some to 7.5IRE...
post #38 of 647
Good question .. I have a Philips player too and am thinking it may in fact be set at 0 IRE, but not positive
post #39 of 647
Thread Starter 
The Philips makes the E80 look 'right' on the 'accepted' settings of 'darker' input..

HERE'S A NEW WRINKLE!!!!

I was going to record some of the menu screen for some 'eye candy' of the interface... AND THEY ARE COPY PROTECTED!!! (feeding XS32 > E80) "Recording Prohibited"...

now where's my Clarifier..
post #40 of 647
Londo ... you're just having too much fun. ;) Like a kid in a candy store. :D
post #41 of 647
Bizarre ... I wonder then if you would get that message when trying to make a back-up/copy of a disc made on the Tosh when using the Panny or Pioneer going DVD to HDD?
post #42 of 647
Thread Starter 
dunno yet.... that comes later
post #43 of 647
wow - 3 pages already and only 1 day! (give or take a couple hours)...

Do you think maybe someone out there might just possibly be slightly interested in this unit???:confused: :confused:

Londo - thanks for the effort!:D
post #44 of 647
I'm a little surprised no one besides jmscott42 seems to have the correct understanding about the black level bug...

It is a recording flaw, not a playback flaw. To reiterate, a disc recorded on the early generation Panasonic HS2 would play back normally on the HS2, but would playback lighter with washed-out blacks on any other DVD player.

The HS2 additionally would recognize and distinguish between recordings made on itself from recordings made on something else, and accordingly would drop the playback level IRE by - 7.5 on its own recordings, but not on recordings made on something else. It thereby masked the recording level problem until the HS2 recorded disk was played back on something else, where black levels were displayed washed out.

There were (2) factors, the recording level, and the playback level. The HS2 only had one default recording level, equivalent to a setting that = lighter. That default setting boosted the recording level +7.5 IRE above the source level. The bug was corrected on later models beginning with the E50 when Panasonic introduced a recording level = darker setting, that added no boost to the source.

So I don't see what can be inferred by taking a DVD recording made on an E80H, and playing it back on the XS32. What you would need to do, is make the recording on the *XS32*, create a DVD disk for playback on something else, i.e. an impartial standalone DVD player, and compare black levels to the *original* source.

I would think you could use a camcorder for that, recording something with the lens cap in place, so all you got was a black screen, and compare the DVD black level directly to the camcorder tape.

For a complete background on the black level bug, you can search the archives on keyword "videojanitor" about 1.5 years ago. He uncovered it, and brought it to the attention of Pansonic, going through hoops, but they eventually fixed it.
post #45 of 647
Understood .. and having made several recordings to disc with the Tosh at various rec levels (standard, mode 1 (which is a darker setting), etc ..) those discs (when played back on a Pioneer set at 7.5 IRE=impartial) do in fact look washed out.

When played back on a JVC (which has apparently has a different default IRE setting=0 IRE) they look as they should.

Main question then is, don't most dvd players made for the U.S. have their default IRE playback set to 7.5 ? I realize that many now have an adjustment for this but was under the impression that the standard is 7.5
post #46 of 647
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Roper
So I don't see what can be inferred by taking a DVD recording made on an E80H, and playing it back on the XS32. What you would need to do, is make the recording on the *XS32*, create a DVD disk for playback on something else, i.e. an impartial standalone DVD player, and compare black levels to the *original* source.
You need to read a little closer Tom...

I took a recording that was made on the E80 ....

AND PLAYED IT BACK FROM A PHILLIPS PLAYER BACK INTO BOTH THE E80 and THE XS32....

exactly what you said....

more tests are in order...
post #47 of 647
Thread Starter 
ok... got the VOB from zenith2525...

and, assuming that it was made on an E85 (just checking)..

Panasonic HAS NOT changed their video format.. it's still 704x480 VBR, hardcoded 9.558 mb/s in the MPEG headers and audio at 256k AC2.0

DISCS MADE ON A PANASONIC WILL NOT BE 'DVD-R' COMPATIBLE ON THE TOSHIBA and vice-versa.

This is not good :(
post #48 of 647
Zenith, You get around that problem of "what's the correct default IRE playback level" by playing back the DVD in a player that's connected via progressive scan, component inputs to the TV, not S-Vid or composite.

Progressive scan has to be enabled, thus obviously a TV set that supports this feature is required. When that's done, these playback level settings are ignored. Or a DVD player with DVI or HDMI output can be used, with the appropriate TV set.

A DVD player that has multiple choice for playback levels, lighter/darker/normal, 0, +7.5 ......whatever....they all get equalized when playback is put into progressive scan mode via component connections to the TV, and whatever the chosen settings for playback level are ignored. That puts them all on a level playing field.

memo to self:

Add Zenith to list of the enlightened :)
post #49 of 647
Yes, that was an E85 recording
post #50 of 647
That's very interesting Tom .. good to know that.
That said though, this will not help matters much in the likely scenario of sharing discs with others who may very well not have a TV set that supports progressive scan.
post #51 of 647
Well, then, you just need to upgrade your friends and family members to compensate for the progressive-scan-lack-of-possession bug.
post #52 of 647
Nice one :)
post #53 of 647
Actually, on a serious note, what about component connections but NOT using progressive scan (for those of us with semi-lame TVs instead of entirely lame ;))? Does the black level still come into play? From what I've seen it does, but that doesn't entirely make sense to me.
post #54 of 647
Quote:
Originally posted by Londo
ok... got the VOB from zenith2525...

and, assuming that it was made on an E85 (just checking)..

Panasonic HAS NOT changed their video format.. it's still 704x480 VBR, hardcoded 9.558 mb/s in the MPEG headers and audio at 256k AC2.0

DISCS MADE ON A PANASONIC WILL NOT BE 'DVD-R' COMPATIBLE ON THE TOSHIBA and vice-versa.

This is not good :(
What exactly do you mean by not being DVD-R compatible?
I know of course they will play each others' discs, just not record each others' .. yes?
post #55 of 647
Thread Starter 
what I mean is that recordings made on one will not be 'hs dubbable' on the other...

Last night I took a RAM disc made from the E80 and loaded it to the XS32. It loaded, but would not HS dub it, it wanted to re-encode...

that means that (for instance) if you have both recorders and use them both to record things (like some people use two VCR's)... that you will NOT be able to mix/match the recordings to make final discs by using DVD-RAM or even DVD-VR to move the recordings between each other.. you might even have problems on a PC if (for instance) you wanted to make a single program from a recording on each deck. Since they have differerent resolutions, one or the other WILL have to be re-encoded. (the only exception to this I think might be TMPGEnc author, since each track is a seperate VTS, you can have a resolution/bitrate switch between tracks.
post #56 of 647
Quote:
Originally posted by Londo
You need to read a little closer Tom...

Gotcha!

Maybe you need to write a little farther away! Okay kidding..;)

I'll use my reading glasses from now on.
post #57 of 647
Quote:
Originally posted by jmscott42
Actually, on a serious note, what about component connections but NOT using progressive scan (for those of us with semi-lame TVs instead of entirely lame ;))? Does the black level still come into play? From what I've seen it does, but that doesn't entirely make sense to me.
Then you have the lack-of-progressive-scan-bug problem :)

And while I agree it seemingly makes no sense, if progressive scan is not enabled but you are using component video connections, the playback level settings are enabled, not bypassed as with progressive scan. That's been my understanding, and my observation both.
post #58 of 647
Quote:
Originally posted by Londo
FIRST MAJOR COMPATIBILITY PROBLEM

Took a RAM disc full of DVD-R compatible programs recorded on the E80
HS Dubbed them to the XS32 HD - no problem
Edited them on the XS32 (FRAME ACCURATE!) - no problem
made a menu up - no problem
start to dub - PROBLEM!

"These programs can not be HS Dubbed because they were not recorded in DVD-R Compatible mode"

devloping...

Just inquiring...but is there any possibility that the DVD-R "incompatibility" was a result of the editing or menu creation? What about repeating the experiment with just raw footage, no edits or menus?
post #59 of 647
Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Roper
Zenith, You get around that problem of "what's the correct default IRE playback level" by playing back the DVD in a player that's connected via progressive scan, component inputs to the TV, not S-Vid or composite.

Progressive scan has to be enabled, thus obviously a TV set that supports this feature is required. When that's done, these playback level settings are ignored. Or a DVD player with DVI or HDMI output can be used, with the appropriate TV set.

A DVD player that has multiple choice for playback levels, lighter/darker/normal, 0, +7.5 ......whatever....they all get equalized when playback is put into progressive scan mode via component connections to the TV, and whatever the chosen settings for playback level are ignored. That puts them all on a level playing field.
This is not necessarily always true. I have a Panasonic XP30, and its black level output settings (Lighter/Darker) still have an effect even when the player is in progressive scan mode. (Though the official black level for progressive scan is 0 IRE, so Darker is the correct setting if you're outputting 480p from an XP30.)

Also, if your TV is calibrated for 0 IRE 480p (as mine is), then if you play back discs made on a recorder that does not handle black level properly, your discs will still appear washed out. The "solution" of turning your DVD player's output to 0 IRE only works if your TV is calibrated for 7.5 IRE.
post #60 of 647
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Roper
Just inquiring...but is there any possibility that the DVD-R "incompatibility" was a result of the editing or menu creation? What about repeating the experiment with just raw footage, no edits or menus?
Keep reading the thread... I found the problem....

Panasonic = 704x480 256k AC3 2.0
Toshiba = 720x480 192k or 384k AC3 2.0

DVD-R compatible <> DVD-R compatible between the two units.

I'm now having to contemplate returning the Toshiba for the E85 simply to avoid this problem with 'interoperability'. For me this could be a problem...

I've got till tomorrow, that's when they go off sale..
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