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post #7591 of 10016
Adjacent channels cause interference within a certain distance. The FCC rule is 14-68 miles, but an interference analysis with a computer will show it clearly.

- Trip
post #7592 of 10016
I wonder how big of a problem adjacent channel interference really is? How big of a difference in signal strengths does it take before the strong one causes a problem for the weak one?

So far when I've viewed stronger signals adjacent to weaker ones as seen on a spectrum analyzer never has my TV been unable to receive the weaker one as long as it was strong enough to be possible to receive. But maybe I have not seen enough difference.

The worst situation I have here is KTLN on 47 sandwiched between KQCA on 46 and KSPX on 48, the latter two being locals and KTLN at 114 miles comes in only with some ducting. All three are the same antenna heading within a couple degrees so there's no rejection of KQCA or KSPX from the antenna pattern. KTLN is in here almost every night and seems to be unaffected by its much stronger neighbors. (I think the maximum difference is about 30dB.)

It's hard to imagine that an adjacent channel in an adjacent market is going to be strong enough to prevent reception of a station in its normal reception area. As an example, I could see where KICU might get interference from KCRA out here in the valley but not the other way around.

Chuck
post #7593 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Adjacent channels cause interference within a certain distance. The FCC rule is 14-68 miles, but an interference analysis with a computer will show it clearly.

- Trip

Really? Is that just with digital? Because we've had 4 and 5 on Sutro forever in analog.
And I thought that one of the benefits of digital was supposed to be less interference with other adjacent stations.

Digital KMTP(33) AND KFSF(34); KKPX(41),KAXT(42), KCSM(43); KQED(30),KPIX(29) are all in the same general broadcast area. The latter two are on the same tower.
post #7594 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEEPFRINGEGUY View Post

Really? Is that just with digital? Because we've had 4 and 5 on Sutro forever in analog.

4 and 5 are 4 MHz apart. They have a buffer.

Quote:
And I thought that one of the benefits of digital was supposed to be less interference with other adjacent stations.

Digital KMTP(33) AND KFSF(34); KKPX(41),KAXT(42), KCSM(43); KQED(30),KPIX(29) are all in the same general broadcast area. The latter two are on the same tower.

They're on the same tower, or are nearby enough for it to not matter. Check 47CFR73.622, there's a restriction on adjacent channels 14-68 miles away from an allotment. The FCC allowed stations to be short-spaced for the transition and continues to allow short-spacing as long as directional patterns or power restrictions are employed to prevent interference.

- Trip
post #7595 of 10016
Hey all,

I've been scratching my head about why I lost KXTV (10.1) ABC at the DTV switch. At first I figured my ATSC Vista Media Center setup was just having problems with the Listings and so forth, but when I plugged my Terk TV-5 (which picked up channel 10 before the switch with marvelous strength) into my TV and scanned in different orientations, I never get so much as a whiff of it. I'm in Folsom, CA.

After reading the past few pages of this thread, it appears I'm not alone. Unfortunately I live in an apartment complex with a moratorium on outdoor antennas, and I have to make do with my Terk TV-5 indoors, which is placed up high and near the balcony (we're on the 2nd floor, facing north).

Upshot: Is there *anything* I can do to get ABC back? Do I have to (gasp) go back to CABLE?!

Thanks!
-Nathan
post #7596 of 10016
Why are KVIE and KMAX off the air this evening? KVIE came back for a couple minutes around 8:15 but went off again. Other stations on the same towers are on and normal strengths.

Chuck

Update: KVIE came back around 8:20 but KMAX is still off at 9:10 pm.
post #7597 of 10016
keodark

They can not restrict you from using an outdoor antenna

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Read above about the law
post #7598 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross King II View Post

keodark

They can not restrict you from using an outdoor antenna

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Read above about the law

Unfortunately for renters the rules only apply to "exclusive use" areas such as a patio or balcony and not the roof. Unless a 12' mast gets above the roof from such a location it probably won't help him.

Chuck
post #7599 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by keodark View Post

Hey all,

I've been scratching my head about why I lost KXTV (10.1) ABC at the DTV switch. At first I figured my ATSC Vista Media Center setup was just having problems with the Listings and so forth, but when I plugged my Terk TV-5 (which picked up channel 10 before the switch with marvelous strength) into my TV and scanned in different orientations, I never get so much as a whiff of it. I'm in Folsom, CA.

After reading the past few pages of this thread, it appears I'm not alone. Unfortunately I live in an apartment complex with a moratorium on outdoor antennas, and I have to make do with my Terk TV-5 indoors, which is placed up high and near the balcony (we're on the 2nd floor, facing north).

Upshot: Is there *anything* I can do to get ABC back? Do I have to (gasp) go back to CABLE?!

Thanks!
-Nathan

Have you tried changing the location of the antenna? I am in Fair Oaks and have an outside antenna but have fooled with a TV5 to see how it works here and can get strong signals from KXTV and KVIE with it if I place the antenna in a good spot. The signal strength of all stations varies as I change the location of the antenna in all three dimensions. There are places where it does not receive either station but moving it a few feet gives me very strong signals.
post #7600 of 10016
I did a rescan of my TIVO HD receiver this evening and I suddenly have a whole bunch of bay area stations I hadn't received before. I'm now getting digital channels for KTVU, KOFY, KRON, KQED, and a few others. Haven't changed the antenna so I'm assuming this is due to great weather conditons or the DTransition has been nice to me...

At any rate KOFY is running Get Smart on Retro Night...life is good!
post #7601 of 10016
keodark,

I agree with Rory. A sweet spot for UHF signal may not be a sweet spot for VHF signals. You mentioned that your antenna was in a corner. Any chance of putting it near a window? If you received analog channel 10 well before the analog shutdown, the signal will still be there at your location, it's just finding it that's left to do.
post #7602 of 10016
I see what you mean, CA_guy, I was reveiving "6.1" last night with the K(IX)E logo in the corner.....(Antenna mounted upside down, perhaps?) Don't know if I should refer to it as "entertaining" or "annoying." Wish I had been thinking "screen cap" at the time.

As far as ABC goes, I can get 7.1 from the north easier than 10.1 from the south,but neither one is reliable, not good considering i can get several CBS, several NBC, 2 CW and 2 FOX from here.

-Ken
post #7603 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by beller View Post

I did a rescan of my TIVO HD receiver this evening and I suddenly have a whole bunch of bay area stations I hadn't received before. I'm now getting digital channels for KTVU, KOFY, KRON, KQED, and a few others. Haven't changed the antenna so I'm assuming this is due to great weather conditons or the DTransition has been nice to me...

At any rate KOFY is running Get Smart on Retro Night...life is good!

Same thing last night. Picked up a bunch. They were stable for a while, but I lost some of them later on in the evening. This was with an indoor. Didnit try the outdoor to see how stable they were.

S~
post #7604 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by N6ULO View Post

I see what you mean, CA_guy, I was reveiving "6.1" last night with the K(IX)E logo in the corner.....(Antenna mounted upside down, perhaps?) Don't know if I should refer to it as "entertaining" or "annoying." Wish I had been thinking "screen cap" at the time.

KVIE9 was off the air last night for a bit, at least here. Your box has mapped 6.1 as being physical channel 9.1; and when it pulled in 9.1, it got KIXE. I have a receiver in which I can enter 9.1 and might get either KVIE or KQED.

Quote:


As far as ABC goes, I can get 7.1 from the north easier than 10.1 from the south,but neither one is reliable, not good considering i can get several CBS, several NBC, 2 CW and 2 FOX from here. -Ken

Has anyone tried pulling in KOLO8 ABC from Reno? My antenna is not pointed in that direction, but with the good conditions lately at night, I see no reason that it shouldn't come in. I was thinking this might be a solution for the person in Folsom with only a northern view, but he seems to be having problems with all VHF HI channels.
post #7605 of 10016
I did a scan of my channels last night. This has been going on for several weeks. What is going on? It may of been stated before but I can't find it. I have Dish Network and OTA. This is a list of channels I get and don't get during the day.
03.00
03.00 HD
03.01 OTA
06.00
06.01 OTA
06.02 OTA
06.03 OTA
10.00
10.00 HD
10.01 OTA NO
10.02 OTA NO
10.04 OTA NO
13.00
13.00 HD
13.01 OTA NO
13.02 OTA NO
13.04 OTA NO
19.00
19.01 OTA NO
29.00
29.01 OTA NO
29.02 OTA NO
29.03 OTA NO
29.04 OTA NO
31.00 very weak
31.01 OTA NO
40.00
40.00 HD
40.01 OTA
40.02 OTA NO
42.00
58.00
58.00 HD
58.01 OTA yes
58.02 OTA yes
64.00
64.01 OTA NO

During the evening (after 5 pm) All the HD channels plus 10, 13, 40. disappear and the screen comes up saying they are working on it. Notice the OTA channels 3, 6, and 58 continue broadcasting.

What is going on?

Thanks
post #7606 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Guy View Post

KVIE9 was off the air last night for a bit, at least here.

As fate would have it, that's exactly when I had my antenna guy here in Davis, trying to pull in KVIE and KXTV for HDHomerun OTA recording purposes. I've had a UHF-only antenna for several years, which has worked great. He insisted on trying a round omni-directional antenna which has worked great for his other customers in this area, he says... We finally gave up when it became apparent KVIE-DT wasn't on the air.

So this morning I checked the signal levels on my HDTV's tuner. 6.1 and 10.1 are about 50%, not high enough for the HDHomeRun to pick up. All other stations are 90%+

I've tried searching this thread for antenna recommendations I could pass on to him, that would work in this area, but had no luck. Antennaweb.org says I'm about 25 miles from the Walnut Grove towers, at about 134 degrees. According to them, a 'small multidirectional' antenna should work, but it obviously doesn't.

KVIE is my main concern, because I do like to record some of their HD concerts, dramas, etc. to keep. I do have a DirecTV HR-21 for everyday use. It's just a pain to get programs from it into the computer.

Any suggestions?
post #7607 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Why are KVIE and KMAX off the air this evening? KVIE came back for a couple minutes around 8:15 but went off again. Other stations on the same towers are on and normal strengths.

Chuck

Update: KVIE came back around 8:20 but KMAX is still off at 9:10 pm.

Chuck,

KMAX was on all night.

Bob
post #7608 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Guy View Post

Has anyone tried pulling in KOLO8 ABC from Reno?

Indeed. I can receive KOLO almost 100% of the time (from the Pocket area) if I point my antenna in that direction. Just like with analog 8, it doesn't seem to depend on the conditions -- it would seem their tower location is high enough that I have line-of-sight.

Bay Area reception has been great this week. I did a channel scan a few nights ago and have more channels than I ever seen, and they're all coming in with signal strengths in the 75-90 range (on the Series 3 TiVo meter). A list of what I am receiving: 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 20, 32, 38, 44, 60, 66.
post #7609 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

It's hard to imagine that an adjacent channel in an adjacent market is going to be strong enough to prevent reception of a station in its normal reception area. As an example, I could see where KICU might get interference from KCRA out here in the valley but not the other way around.

Chuck

I agree to a point. To me trading some adjacent channel interference would be more acceptable than the Co-channel problem they have now.

I understand KVIE's situation, but what of KIXE's?

What is the problems with KIXE changing to VHF13, or a different channel again?

I do see where KIXE is proposing a channel 18 translator for the effected chico areas.

won't help me much though.
post #7610 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobar View Post

...During the evening (after 5 pm) All the HD channels plus 10, 13, 40. disappear and the screen comes up saying they are working on it.

That message is from Dish Network when they have technical difficulties with re-transmitting the locals over satellite. It should have no effect on what you can or can't get with your antenna.
post #7611 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pagali View Post

As fate would have it, that's exactly when I had my antenna guy here in Davis, trying to pull in KVIE and KXTV for HDHomerun OTA recording purposes. I've had a UHF-only antenna for several years, which has worked great. He insisted on trying a round omni-directional antenna which has worked great for his other customers in this area, he says... We finally gave up when it became apparent KVIE-DT wasn't on the air.

So this morning I checked the signal levels on my HDTV's tuner. 6.1 and 10.1 are about 50%, not high enough for the HDHomeRun to pick up. All other stations are 90%+

I've tried searching this thread for antenna recommendations I could pass on to him, that would work in this area, but had no luck. Antennaweb.org says I'm about 25 miles from the Walnut Grove towers, at about 134 degrees. According to them, a 'small multidirectional' antenna should work, but it obviously doesn't.

KVIE is my main concern, because I do like to record some of their HD concerts, dramas, etc. to keep. I do have a DirecTV HR-21 for everyday use. It's just a pain to get programs from it into the computer.

Any suggestions?

I'm in Davis, and have great reception from Walnut Grove with a single-story-roof-mounted Radio Shack VU-75XR (http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc52/52245.htm). They don't make this model any longer, but you can find similar designs still on the market.

This one is similar, but it's much smaller since it drops the elements for the no-longer-used VHF 2-6: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM2016
post #7612 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hess View Post

Chuck,

KMAX was on all night.

Bob

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Two nights back KSMS was coming in for the first time since the transition and I tuned my Sony directly to it; i.e., I entered 31.3. For some reason because the station was coming in, that wiped out the mapping for KMAX. I had entered 31.3 numerous times in the past without the station being receivable with no affect on KMAX mapping. I had to rescan to get the KMAX mapping back. I'll have to keep this in mind in the future if I go channel hunting.

Chuck
post #7613 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

Indeed. I can receive KOLO almost 100% of the time (from the Pocket area) if I point my antenna in that direction. Just like with analog 8, it doesn't seem to depend on the conditions -- it would seem their tower location is high enough that I have line-of-sight.

Interesting... do you see anything else from there? KTVN and KRNV are also on VHF and are co-located, as I recall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantumc View Post

What is the problems with KIXE changing to VHF13, or a different channel again?

7's out due to KRCR.
8's out due to KUNO.
10's out due to KXTV and KTVL.
11's out due to KEET.
12's out due to KEET (adjacent).
13's out due to KOTI.

That, plus it's probably money they don't have.

- Trip
post #7614 of 10016
This is the reason why I'm thiankful for Dish Network. BTW, I have my DTVPal and down in Newman, though I can't get the Bay Area Channels, I'm somehow having trouble with getting 3.1 and 58.1 because it breaks out about 15%. However, KSEE-DT 38 comes in mainly during the mornings and evenings as in the midday, it doesn't get a signal at all. However, I'm now getting KFSN-DT 30.1-30.2-30.3 as well as KSBW 8.1 with my Tivax Indoor intenna. Although KSBW is very weak out of Fremont Peak. I rely on KSBW in case KSEE/KCRA doesn't come through for NBC programming.
post #7615 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Guy View Post

KVIE9 was off the air last night for a bit, at least here. Your box has mapped 6.1 as being physical channel 9.1; and when it pulled in 9.1, it got KIXE. I have a receiver in which I can enter 9.1 and might get either KVIE or KQED.

Has anyone tried pulling in KOLO8 ABC from Reno? My antenna is not pointed in that direction, but with the good conditions lately at night, I see no reason that it shouldn't come in. I was thinking this might be a solution for the person in Folsom with only a northern view, but he seems to be having problems with all VHF HI channels.

I'm going to have to try for KOLO....My antenna has no reflector so I am thinking maybe I can aim at reno and SFO (or split the difference) at the same time....

can someone tell me how to get a heading for a station that does not appear when I make a chart on tvfool.com?

-Ken
post #7616 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by rackerby View Post

I'm in Davis, and have great reception from Walnut Grove with a single-story-roof-mounted Radio Shack VU-75XR (http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc52/52245.htm). They don't make this model any longer, but you can find similar designs still on the market.

This one is similar, but it's much smaller since it drops the elements for the no-longer-used VHF 2-6: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM2016

Thank you very much!
post #7617 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by N6ULO View Post

.....can someone tell me how to get a heading for a station that does not appear when I make a chart on tvfool.com?

-Ken

My approach is very 19th-century, but it seems to work. I have a 6-inch protractor (drafting tool with azimuth markings) that I simply use with a paper map to get the heading to anything on the map from my location. I've seen protractors like that for sale at almost anyplace having a large school supplies department. I recently found a new one in a sale bin at Staples for less than a dollar.

There must certainly be Internet resources for doing the same thing in a more scientific fashion. But us old guys like hand tools and paper.

--Ron
post #7618 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by N6ULO View Post

can someone tell me how to get a heading for a station that does not appear when I make a chart on tvfool.com?

-Ken

The easiest way is to look up the station in FCC database:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

and enter your LAT/LON and search radius at the bottom of the form. The search results will then include bearing and distance from your location.

I put together an Excel spreadsheet some time back which also calculates these plus a bit more. AVS won't allow an Excel file to be attached so I uploaded to the link below.

http://images.aa6g.org/BearingDistanceCalc.xls

No warranty implied but I think it works. Enter your parameters in the blue cells. Lat/Lon must be in decimal format. I use elevation above mean sea level so that the elevation of the station shows whether it is above or below the horizon under the most optimum terrain. TVFool is much more sophisticated with its 1 or 2 edge and Tropo calculations.

Chuck
post #7619 of 10016
Anyone know what the reception would be for Citrus Heights? I am going there to help my elderly father-in-law set up a HDTV. Can you scan any stations with just an indoor antenna or are we looking at an outside antenna? Thanks for you comments.
post #7620 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogarven View Post

Anyone know what the reception would be for Citrus Heights? I am going there to help my elderly father-in-law set up a HDTV. Can you scan any stations with just an indoor antenna or are we looking at an outside antenna? Thanks for you comments.

Depending on the terrain around his house, you might need to get an outdoor antenna. Citrus Heights has some small hills (at least in the area where I grew up), that can do enough of a job blocking your LOS. With the right height outdoor antenna from there, however, you should get all of the Sacramento stations with no amp necessary.
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