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post #7711 of 9458
Can anyone NW of Sacramento receive K04QR-DT on channel 4? I'm seeing a weak digital signal on channel 4 and today is the first time I've been able to lock on the signal but it appeared to have no PSIP info as neither my TV or my Pal DVR showed any station there. I see it on the spectrum analyzer so there is a signal there. I'm guessing it is K04QR since it's not likely I'd be able to receive any other of the currently licensed stations on channel 4.

Chuck
post #7712 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

These 42xx series antennas are better on hi VHF than most other UHF antennas are but they are still poor compared to an antenna designed for hi VHF. Some people who have strong signals are getting by but don't expect it to pull in those fringe VHF stations.

Chuck

I'm not looking to pull in anything fringe... just 6 and 10.... I don't need anything from San Francisco...

If i can get clean signal for those 2, plus the rest of the major Sacramento stations, I'll be happy...
post #7713 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccallana View Post

I'm not looking to pull in anything fringe... just 6 and 10.... I don't need anything from San Francisco...

If i can get clean signal for those 2, plus the rest of the major Sacramento stations, I'll be happy...

I don't think anyone can predict your results with any certainty. You'll have to try it and see what happens.

Chuck
post #7714 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

The following site has EVERYTHING! Check the "TV Listing by state" in the upper left corner. You'll be amazed at all the stations that are listed for California.

http://www.w9wi.com/newweb/index.html

Larry
SF

Thank you (2x) I still find it interesting that I can get SF but still not KVIE. If anyone goes to the workshop let us know what their excuse is and if they plan to fix it.

Ken
post #7715 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccallana View Post

I'm not looking to pull in anything fringe... just 6 and 10.... I don't need anything from San Francisco...

If i can get clean signal for those 2, plus the rest of the major Sacramento stations, I'll be happy...

I am pulling in all Sacramento stations (except KVIE, KCRA is weak) everything from Chico and several SFO stations with this thing:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=99907

If you think you can build it it might be worth a try.

Ken
post #7716 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by rackerby View Post

Question: For the Sacramento-area folks getting Bay Area stations, are you making a specific effort to do so?

I have not tried to "fine tune" the direction my antenna is pointing, but other than that, YES I desire to get as many stations as I can. I plan to install a separate UHF only antenna later this summer pointed to the Chico area.

My main antenna is the best UHF/VHF combo that Radio Shack sells (or used to). It's just over 20 feet above my roof, but I am already at a good elevation in Fair Oaks. I am not using a pre-amp at the antenna (I had one originally, but it blew out), and now only run an amplifier just as the signal enters the house. That signal is split at least 12 ways, and not all at one place.

I am getting all stations from Walnut Grove with 100% decoding. The strongest stations from Sutro have been KPIX29 & KQED30 so far. The toughest stations to get have been KTVU44 & KGO7. I still get quite a few analog low power stations as well including one on channel 45, which keeps me from getting KBCW45.

I am anxious to see what stuff looks like when they have the work on Sutro completed.
post #7717 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by N6ULO View Post

I am pulling in all Sacramento stations (except KVIE, KCRA is weak) everything from Chico and several SFO stations with this thing:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=99907

If you think you can build it it might be worth a try.

Ken

This is the antenna you're using for VHF? No wonder you can't receive KVIE. The antenna has almost no Front-to-Back ratio as shown in the polar plot at 195 MHz. Looks like about 7 dB. You're getting KVIE off one side and KIXE off the other at the same time. They're wiping each other out.

You need a good hi VHF antenna with at least 20 dB F/B ratio to have a chance at suppressing one station enough to receive the other.

The interference zone at the northern end of KVIE's coverage area with KIXE is a known issue and there's nothing that can be done about it.

KCRA will get better when they finally join in on the KQCA/KMAX high antenna in about 6 weeks.

As far as a high VHF antenna goes..... You could build mine which has a pretty decent F/B ratio.

http://www.aa6g.org/Lp/lp.html

I wouldn't get a Winegard YA-1713 as the F/B ratio is not very good.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html

I confirmed the low F/B of this antenna in my own tests.

You could get a Wade single channel 9 antenna. It's useable for channels 8-10. It would still be better than what you're using now even on 10:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html

Appears not to be optimized for F/B ratio though.

Chuck
post #7718 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Guy View Post

I have not tried to "fine tune" the direction my antenna is pointing, but other than that, YES I desire to get as many stations as I can. I plan to install a separate UHF only antenna later this summer pointed to the Chico area.

My main antenna is the best UHF/VHF combo that Radio Shack sells (or used to). It's just over 20 feet above my roof, but I am already at a good elevation in Fair Oaks. I am not using a pre-amp at the antenna (I had one originally, but it blew out), and now only run an amplifier just as the signal enters the house. That signal is split at least 12 ways, and not all at one place.

I would definately recommend that you get a preamp, especially with your installation.

How are you splitting the signal? Are you using regular TV splitters, or are you using taps?

I recommend using taps with thast many splits, ( if you are not already), as it taps only the amount of Db's you need, (or that is written on the tap you get), and passes the rest with a 1.5 db average loss. Unlike a regular 2way splitter that splits the power in half, with a 3 DB loss on average for each split. In this way you won't have to use an insanely amount of dbs to keep the system operational, and you won't be subjected to a possible over amplification problem on tvs closer to the amps.


Quote:


I am getting all stations from Walnut Grove with 100% decoding. The strongest stations from Sutro have been KPIX29 & KQED30 so far. The toughest stations to get have been KTVU44 & KGO7. I still get quite a few analog low power stations as well including one on channel 45, which keeps me from getting KBCW45.

I am anxious to see what stuff looks like when they have the work on Sutro completed.

With 12 splits in the line, I would think highly about engineering a small headroom for best performance. You wouldn't need anything super expencive like for a hotel or something like that, using strip amps, channel converters, band pass filters and the like.

I'd at least weigh the pros and cons of a pro quality signal amp, and taps etc...

For a loose example, and rounding numbers to an even whole number, let's say I have four rooms, and have a 20Db amplifier.

One tv is right at the head of the system. One 4db tap, leads off to the first tv, vcr, tivo etc..., and passes 15db to the next split. lossing 1db due to the tap. This gives you 4dbs at the first tv. A modern tv can handle 5dbs without overloading, and it gives you a little extra for vcrs, or other equipment. 0db at the tv is ideal, neither positive or negative.

Factor in the cable length and signal losses. Lets say I lost 1db due to cable length, so at my next tap, the signal strength is at 14db, another 4db tap, brings the passing signal strength to 10db.

Then with the 1db signal losses through the cable it is now at 9db at the next 4db tap for the third room. Passing 5db to the next tv.

Then with the fourth room with everything being a constant 1db loss due to cable length the dbs at the final tv should be around 4dbs.

Be aware the above is just an example, and none of the cable lengths, losses or db alowences are going to be that perfect in the real world.


The system you have though, seems to be working for you though, so the old addage, if it ain't broke don't fix it may be wise too.

Also it's been 15 years since I designed a headroom, (not including my own) so if I left anything out, got something crossed in my old brain, or if there are new digital quirks I don't know about... corrections are welcome.

post #7719 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by N6ULO View Post

Thank you (2x) I still find it interesting that I can get SF but still not KVIE. If anyone goes to the workshop let us know what their excuse is and if they plan to fix it.

Ken

I don't think they need an excuse. At the last seminar their chief engineer said that their transmitter and antenna are now both at their final configuration. They're on the channel assigned by the FCC, with the antenna installation and ERP that their resources permit. It's up to the viewer to do what's necessary to pull them in.

Difficulty receiving KVIE is due to (a) the inherent difficulty in capturing a watchable DTV signal compared to analog, and (b) their shift to VHF, which made all of those indoor antennas with marginal (or worse) VHF performance suddenly unsatisfactory. The same could be said for a few of the top-rated outdoor antennas that also are superb at UHF but compromised at VHF.

To my observation, those who are using an old high-performing UHF/VHF antenna mounted above the roof and on a rotor (or pointed dead-on at Walnut Grove) are having no problem at all with KVIE unless they have unique problems due to distance, multipath, etc. Anyone whose antenna is less than that standard might expect inferior results, and I would be the last to blame it on KVIE.

--Ron
post #7720 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I don't think anyone can predict your results with any certainty. You'll have to try it and see what happens.

Chuck


FYI - I got the CM4221HD, hung it in the attic pointing basically out the gable end of the house... Seems to be working great! I get all the Sac locals at pretty much 100% intensity/quality according to my Zinwell box...

and that's thru 2 full runs of cable including a splitter. I'll have to hook up the 2nd tv when I get another box to see if that causes any problems.
post #7721 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

This is the antenna you're using for VHF? No wonder you can't receive KVIE. The antenna has almost no Front-to-Back ratio as shown in the polar plot at 195 MHz. Looks like about 7 dB. You're getting KVIE off one side and KIXE off the other at the same time. They're wiping each other out.

You need a good hi VHF antenna with at least 20 dB F/B ratio to have a chance at suppressing one station enough to receive the other.

The interference zone at the northern end of KVIE's coverage area with KIXE is a known issue and there's nothing that can be done about it.


Chuck


Well, considering that KXTV 10 is coming in strong here, it looks like I'm fighting the laws of physics more than I thought. Sadly, with longer wavelength, it gets harder and harder to make a directional antenna that is physically small. Does anyone know of a VHF-hi antenna design that is optimized for F/B ratio? I don't think I need a lot of forward gain. Thank you for your input, I will keep trying.

Ken
post #7722 of 9458
Anyone try a quad antenna? ARRL seems to think they have >20dB f/b. I am going to build this for 189 mHz and let you all know how it goes:

http://www2.mmae.ucf.edu/~ssd/ham/quadcalc.html
post #7723 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by KG7OR View Post

To my observation, those who are using an old high-performing UHF/VHF antenna mounted above the roof and on a rotor (or pointed dead-on at Walnut Grove) are having no problem at all with KVIE unless they have unique problems due to distance, multipath, etc. Anyone whose antenna is less than that standard might expect inferior results, and I would be the last to blame it on KVIE.

--Ron

I would just like to add the Co-channel problem as well. For some of us, there is no way around it, no matter how good your equipment is.

Luck of the draw.
post #7724 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by N6ULO View Post

Anyone try a quad antenna? ARRL seems to think they have >20dB f/b. I am going to build this for 189 mHz and let you all know how it goes:

http://www2.mmae.ucf.edu/~ssd/ham/quadcalc.html

I spent some time looking at the quad and yagi chapters in the ARRL Antenna Book. I don't see any real advantage of a quad over a yagi. If you want to build a quad just because it'll be something fun to do, then that's great. But if you're building it because you expect it to better than a yagi and you can't buy a quad, then you'll be disappointed. You may as well buy one of those Wade channel 9 yagis.

Looking at the various optimized designs for HF yagis in the Antenna Book, it looks like it's very hard to get much more than 25 dB F/B. I think the slightly better than 20 dB I'm getting with my 91XGs and homemade log periodics is about as good as one can hope for.

Chuck
post #7725 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I spent some time looking at the quad and yagi chapters in the ARRL Antenna Book. I don't see any real advantage of a quad over a yagi. If you want to build a quad just because it'll be something fun to do, then that's great. But if you're building it because you expect it to better than a yagi and you can't buy a quad, then you'll be disappointed. You may as well buy one of those Wade channel 9 yagis.

Looking at the various optimized designs for HF yagis in the Antenna Book, it looks like it's very hard to get much more than 25 dB F/B. I think the slightly better than 20 dB I'm getting with my 91XGs and homemade log periodics is about as good as one can hope for.

Chuck


My observations from tvfool.com are that 1. KKTF-LP might be making it harder to receive KCRA (a little) 2. Since I seem to be able to pull in KRCR as well as KXTV then yes, KIXE and KVIE are competing.

If any antenna will get just KVIE or just KIXE from here , I will be impressed. I might have a better time waiting on KQED.

My other possible solution is to move about 15 miles southwest


Well at least I know what I am up against, thank you.

Ken
LL
post #7726 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by KG7OR View Post

I don't think they need an excuse. At the last seminar their chief engineer said that their transmitter and antenna are now both at their final configuration. They're on the channel assigned by the FCC, with the antenna installation and ERP that their resources permit. It's up to the viewer to do what's necessary to pull them in.

Difficulty receiving KVIE is due to (a) the inherent difficulty in capturing a watchable DTV signal compared to analog, and (b) their shift to VHF, which made all of those indoor antennas with marginal (or worse) VHF performance suddenly unsatisfactory. The same could be said for a few of the top-rated outdoor antennas that also are superb at UHF but compromised at VHF.

To my observation, those who are using an old high-performing UHF/VHF antenna mounted above the roof and on a rotor (or pointed dead-on at Walnut Grove) are having no problem at all with KVIE unless they have unique problems due to distance, multipath, etc. Anyone whose antenna is less than that standard might expect inferior results, and I would be the last to blame it on KVIE.

--Ron

Actually, the fact that they were moved to physical channel 9 is a good an excuse as any. I can get analog 6 (I think they call it a nightlight or something) just fine.
post #7727 of 9458
After getting my CM4221HD installed in the attic, it looks like all the locals are coming in fine, except periodically I lose the 2 KCRA channels - 3.1 and 3.2 - my box just reports a missing signal. If I leave it there for a minute it usually recovers, but those are the only channels doing this.

Any thoughts why? Also I notice on their ticker, they are moving their antenna up in a few months, anybody from KCRA here to let us know when that happens?
post #7728 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by N6ULO View Post

My observations from tvfool.com are that 1. KKTF-LP might be making it harder to receive KCRA (a little)

Ken

Can you see a picture on 35 analog? If you can than that's a problem, even if it's a lousy picture. If not then you're okay. The good thing is that KKTF has a construction permit for digital 30 and eventually any co-channel problem with KCRA will go away.

Chuck
post #7729 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Can you see a picture on 35 analog? If you can than that's a problem, even if it's a lousy picture. If not then you're okay. The good thing is that KKTF has a construction permit for digital 30 and eventually any co-channel problem with KCRA will go away.

Chuck

I will have to check when KCRA is not coming in, right now it is ok. It's not a problem because I can get NBC on KNVN 24 from Chico. And now I have been able to get KVIE 20-30 percent of the time by aiming my antenna about 185 degrees, which allows some San Francisco viewing. all I had to do is wait for KRCR 7 to come in then turn my antenna to null it out a little. Looks like I'm close to getting all networks here.
post #7730 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Can you see a picture on 35 analog? If you can than that's a problem, even if it's a lousy picture. If not then you're okay. The good thing is that KKTF has a construction permit for digital 30 and eventually any co-channel problem with KCRA will go away.

Chuck

Well, that's just lovely...

Looks like I'll probably be losing KQED in the near future...


I have noticed today, since channel 3 and 6 nightline service has ended, KXTV and KVIE has been more stable in my area. KVIE-9 is at 66% today. Will have to see if it's just a coincidence or not. Still a hell of a lot of co-channel with KIXE.

Channel 6 analog was my strongest station, it could have been introducing variables in my system, and now that it's gone etc... Will wait and see.

Which brings me to another question I've been pondering. I can forsee a time when some of us will need "Channel 53 through 69" UHF traps. This is to block unwanted interference, in the same way as CB radio traps were needed. I can forsee a lot of noise being introduced into some systems. Especially since the antennas and amps are designed to amplify the unwanted signals instead of rejecting them.
post #7731 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccallana View Post

Any thoughts why? Also I notice on their ticker, they are moving their antenna up in a few months, anybody from KCRA here to let us know when that happens?

According to this.....

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...387&q_num=5030

..... they're expecting to be complete in mid September. I don't know what the reference to "Tower Crews" means though. Look at the last paragraph of this filing:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...387&q_num=5030

This is exactly what we were told during the KMAX facility tour on June 12th. Everything is in place except the old KQCA analog transmitter needs to be removed and the new KCRA digital transmitter needs to be installed and connected to the combiner. No antenna work required. Maybe new microwave link antennas??

I hope they finish the work before the new season begins.

Chuck
post #7732 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantumc View Post

I would definately recommend that you get a preamp, especially with your installation.

How are you splitting the signal? Are you using regular TV splitters, or are you using taps?

I am not using "regular" (aka cheap) TV splitters. I designed the system taking into consideration the highest channel (69 at the time), cable loss, "splitting" loss, etc. I originally had a preamp, but it failed. PITA to deal with so I left it out. Not ideal, but works for now. If I was to make any changes it would be a lower noise amplifier.
post #7733 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Guy View Post

I am not using "regular" (aka cheap) TV splitters. I designed the system taking into consideration the highest channel (69 at the time), cable loss, "splitting" loss, etc. I originally had a preamp, but it failed. PITA to deal with so I left it out. Not ideal, but works for now. If I was to make any changes it would be a lower noise amplifier.

Ah, good!

You never know unless you ask.
post #7734 of 9458
We carry KTVU (Fox 2 S.F), KQED (PBS 9 S.F) without any problems from our Dixon CA headend facility to feed our Solano County systems from our 150ft tower in Davis)
post #7735 of 9458
Question, is anybody in the Stockton area having problems getting channel 6 and channel 10 in??? Yes Im using a VHF UHF antenna. And 1 more question, why is channel 6 and 10 not using UHF like everybody else is???
post #7736 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

According to this.....

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...387&q_num=5030

..... they're expecting to be complete in mid September. I don't know what the reference to "Tower Crews" means though. Look at the last paragraph of this filing:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...387&q_num=5030

This is exactly what we were told during the KMAX facility tour on June 12th. Everything is in place except the old KQCA analog transmitter needs to be removed and the new KCRA digital transmitter needs to be installed and connected to the combiner. No antenna work required. Maybe new microwave link antennas??

I hope they finish the work before the new season begins.

Chuck

Last paragraph here? https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/...387&q_num=5030
"While the station's post-transition facility will use an antenna that is already installed on the tower, the construction process will require the installation of transmission line to connect to the existing combiner."

Tower work for the transmission line from the waveguide to antenna?


See also https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/...387&q_num=5030
"3) The station has plans underway to procure a transmitter from another station owned by Hearst-Argyle following the transition. The transmitter is currently used for pretransition DTV Channel 31 operation and will be modified for KCRA-DT's posttransition Channel 35 operation."

Appears they're moving the old transmitter from KCCI(31) DES MOINES, IOWA to KCRA
post #7737 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodi25 View Post

And 1 more question, why is channel 6 and 10 not using UHF like everybody else is???

Well, everyone is not using UHF for digital TV. For example, in the bay area KGO is using channel 7 and KNTV is using channel 12.

The problem, IMO, goes back to when stations were "loaned" a 2nd channel to simultaneously broadcast in NTSC and ATSC. Channel 13 was loaned 25 and channel 31 was loaned 21. All 4 of those channels are "in band" (are still in use for TV broadcasting after the digital transition). But KVIE channel 6 was loaned 53, an "out of band" channel (what was channels 51 to 69 are no longer used for TV in the USA). VHF low band does not work well for ATSC and they could not use 53, so they had to find somewhere that satisfied a lot of requirements.

KXTV 10 was loaned channel 61, which is also out of band; so that made it somewhat a no-brainer to move their digital signal back to 10 when analog got turned off.

FWIW; KTXL was loaned channel 55, which made moving back to 40 their only real choice. KQCA was loaned 46; but 58 is out of band so they stayed digital on 46. KSPX channel 29 was loaned 48, so they two had two good channels to vie for.
post #7738 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Can you see a picture on 35 analog? If you can than that's a problem, even if it's a lousy picture. If not then you're okay. The good thing is that KKTF has a construction permit for digital 30 and eventually any co-channel problem with KCRA will go away.
Chuck

Speaking of low power digital stations, has anyone noticed any new ones on the air up there in the Sacramento area? Since there's no way for me to receive them, I'll have to rely on you guys to keep me informed so that I can update my lists. Thanks.
Larry
SF
post #7739 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodi25 View Post

Question, is anybody in the Stockton area having problems getting channel 6 and channel 10 in??? Yes Im using a VHF UHF antenna. And 1 more question, why is channel 6 and 10 not using UHF like everybody else is???

I have problems in Sacramento, but can sometimes get both (usually just KVIE-6 on 9) with rabbit ears inside if I lay one element down horizontal and point it toward the tower in Walnut Grove and put the other at about 15-20 degrees from vertical. I wonder if it's because they're using an elliptical polarized antenna (10 percent vert)?

Also, 25 percent of the stations that transitioned to digital ended up in the VHF band (mostly high VHF 7-13).
post #7740 of 9458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwall23 View Post

Tower work for the transmission line from the waveguide to antenna?

What they mean is from the transmitter to the combiner room. The antenna is already in place and being used by KQCA & KMAX. I saw the setup while I was down there for the KOVR analog shutoff last month.

Quote:


Appears they're moving the old transmitter from KCCI(31) DES MOINES, IOWA to KCRA

Interesting. That's where they're getting it from!

Chuck
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