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post #9211 of 10016
Assuming they're transmitting normally, the signal should be fine in your area. Most likely, it's getting wiped out by local electrical interference, a common situation in urban and suburban areas for LP low-VHF.

Are you getting any of the other low-power low-VHF channels in the area?

You might want to give them a call during business hours and check with the engineering department.
post #9212 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucdgrad View Post

I live in Folsom, specifically in Empire Ranch (Iron Point Road and Empire Ranch Drive). I am having issues getting the local channels on my televisions. I have been using a Terk antenna and switched to a Leaf but I haven't seen any improvement and at times lost almost all channels. I am frustrated with the indoor antenna setup, but don't have the money or knowledge to set up an outdoor antenna. What is the best indoor setup for me right now and does anyone have information on who to have install an outdoor antenna and which kind is best. I have a two story house and the antenna is set up on the second floor, near a window.

A single Terk or Leaf probably isn't enough for feeding signal to multiple televisions. Have you tried the antennas to a single television?
post #9213 of 10016
Being located in just about the worse area of Fair Oaks and Sac county for OTA reception I fair pretty well... I'm in a hole...My antenna height does clear the hill per Antenna web but trees are in the path.
That said, I do not understand why channel 13 reception is so poor...Signal strength is more than 50% lower than 31,40,3 which are always good.
Naturally 6;s and 10 are boomers...

Even 19's and 29's are better than 13...

The closest, reception wise to 13 is 58.2.. but 58.2 is not as low as 13.

I have a rotor and can fine tune....for 13 but it just has way lower sig strength....

I have several devices that have ATSC tuners and they all reflect the poor reception of 13....

It seems to me that if 13's broadcast antenna is around the same height, broadcast power and same freq (close) that I should expect the sig strength to be a lot better. To me it just does not make any sense.

Miss Analog...

Jim
post #9214 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucdgrad View Post

I live in Folsom, specifically in Empire Ranch (Iron Point Road and Empire Ranch Drive). I am having issues getting the local channels on my televisions. I have been using a Terk antenna and switched to a Leaf but I haven't seen any improvement and at times lost almost all channels. I am frustrated with the indoor antenna setup, but don't have the money or knowledge to set up an outdoor antenna. What is the best indoor setup for me right now and does anyone have information on who to have install an outdoor antenna and which kind is best. I have a two story house and the antenna is set up on the second floor, near a window.

Does the window face toward the Walnut Grove area transmitter locations? Just being near a window will not help if the signals are not comming from a direction the window can see.
post #9215 of 10016
Thanks "Project" Electrical Inferference could be ........ I have no overhead lines in my area and AM reception is good. so that is interesting, logical but could be the problem, I am planning to call on monday

In Fair Oaks You should get good reception except around the forest area's and Rollingwood, if you live in Rollingwood check up in your attic
bet there is a antenna there, When I managed the Radio Shack Store in the 70's I sold a antenna to everyone that lived there smile.gif
post #9216 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkress View Post

In Fair Oaks You should get good reception except around the forest area's and Rollingwood, if you live in Rollingwood check up in your attic
bet there is a antenna there, When I managed the Radio Shack Store in the 70's I sold a antenna to everyone that lived there smile.gif

bkress, if you are referring to me I live over on New York next to the Cemetery at the bottom of the hill.....

I have enough height to clear the hill but there is some obstruction caused by trees....

The question is..... Why 13 is over 1/2 the DB loss as most of the other channels...

Jim
post #9217 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfootford1 View Post

Being located in just about the worse area of Fair Oaks and Sac county for OTA reception I fair pretty well... I'm in a hole...My antenna height does clear the hill per Antenna web but trees are in the path.
That said, I do not understand why channel 13 reception is so poor...Signal strength is more than 50% lower than 31,40,3 which are always good.
Naturally 6;s and 10 are boomers...
Even 19's and 29's are better than 13...
The closest, reception wise to 13 is 58.2.. but 58.2 is not as low as 13.
I have a rotor and can fine tune....for 13 but it just has way lower sig strength....
I have several devices that have ATSC tuners and they all reflect the poor reception of 13....
It seems to me that if 13's broadcast antenna is around the same height, broadcast power and same freq (close) that I should expect the sig strength to be a lot better. To me it just does not make any sense.
Miss Analog...
Jim

Multipath is the likely culprit. Try raising or lowering your antenna on the mast. Just a few inches in height can make a big difference with multipath.
post #9218 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkress View Post

Well friends I have tried it all and about to throw in the towel, I am trying to receive KCSO-LP TV33 (digital 3) from my home in the Butterfield area at Hwy50 and Bradshaw, I am receiving all the local full power stations and on these hot days the bay area stations as well, no matter what I have tried I cannot get KCSO, installed a rotor KUVS comes in at 100% there on the same tower, I just went out and bought a Low VHF Yagi rated at 90 miles installed and direct hook up to a Digital tuner and no KCSO but it gets all the other stations as well as my VHF and UHF and FM yagi's
Since KCSO is licensed to Sacramento do they have a responsibility to the viewer/customer to get there signal in there city of license, what I am trying to get is ME-TV on KCSO 33.2 any suggestion or assistance will be appreciated

I seem to remember comments in some thread that a low power station doesn't have to cover their city of license. Maybe someone has a more definitive answer. The official FCC coverage map for KCSO shows that it really doesn't cover Sacramento.

http://maps.google.com/?q=http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/contourplot.kml?gmap=2%26appid=1441594%26call=KCSO-LD%26freq=0.0%26contour=43%26city=SACRAMENTO%26state=CA.kml

We did have have someone on here some months back that was successful from west of Roseville. He lived in a fairly rural area.

How well do you receive KMMW-LP on 28? They're at the same location as KCSO and might be a better gauge for KSCO reception.

Can you receive KOFY from Mt. Sutro? Me-TV is on 20.2.

As pointed out, electrical interference is a real problem on low VHF. Have you looked at analog KEFM on channel 6 from the Sutter Buttes? If you see sparkles on that picture then you know you have electrical interference.

Chuck
post #9219 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfootford1 View Post

Being located in just about the worse area of Fair Oaks and Sac county for OTA reception I fair pretty well... I'm in a hole...My antenna height does clear the hill per Antenna web but trees are in the path.
That said, I do not understand why channel 13 reception is so poor...Signal strength is more than 50% lower than 31,40,3 which are always good.
Naturally 6;s and 10 are boomers...

How are you determining that KOVR is weaker than the other stations? I ask this because almost no TV displays actual signal strength and almost everyone confuses the Signal Quality meter with Signal Strength. Just because the meter is labeled Signal Strength doesn't mean that's what it is. I do know the HD HomeRun for your computer can measure real signal strength.
Quote:
The question is..... Why 13 is over 1/2 the DB loss as most of the other channels...

Where are you reading this from and what are the actual numbers?

I've taken a spectrum analyzer to several different locations and KOVR is always right up there among the strongest signals. KOVR is the strongest Walnut Grove station at my location but it is not the highest signal quality. That's because of multipath issues at my location.

Chuck
post #9220 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfootford1 View Post

Being located in just about the worse area of Fair Oaks and Sac county for OTA reception I fair pretty well... I'm in a hole...My antenna height does clear the hill per Antenna web but trees are in the path.
That said, I do not understand why channel 13 reception is so poor...Signal strength is more than 50% lower than 31,40,3 which are always good.
Naturally 6;s and 10 are boomers...
Even 19's and 29's are better than 13...
The closest, reception wise to 13 is 58.2.. but 58.2 is not as low as 13.
I have a rotor and can fine tune....for 13 but it just has way lower sig strength....
I have several devices that have ATSC tuners and they all reflect the poor reception of 13....
It seems to me that if 13's broadcast antenna is around the same height, broadcast power and same freq (close) that I should expect the sig strength to be a lot better. To me it just does not make any sense.
Miss Analog...
Jim
Jim,

Got to be something wrong there. We have a boatload of RF out there. TV antennas have different characteristics for each channel. Could be that your antenna just doesn't favor channel 25. A Channel Master 4228 is what I'd get.

Bob
post #9221 of 10016
So what is a "quality" signal level?

As Calaveras has mentioned, the "Signal Strength" listed on your TV is not necessarily indicative of the actual strength of the signal. Every local channel is registering at 90% - 100% except channels 10 and 6 (and a few off-brands which I don't care about). Channel 10 is at 86% and Channel 6 is at 4% (I am in Placerville). Channel 10 is okay, but I know my wife will not deal with the pixellations.

Of course, these values are with me just quickly going out and buying a ClearStream 2 and setting it up in my livingroom on a ladder. I am thinking of getting something slightly better (perhaps a ClearStream 5 for the VHF and keeping the ClearStream 2 for the UHF) and, once I mount it on the roof, I think (cross-fingers) the channel 10 issue will be solved. I am not too hopeful for channel 6.

Does anyone know of an antenna that has both UHF and VHF long range? And something to improve 3 - 6 reception?
post #9222 of 10016
Roy,

You can greatly improve the VHF performance of the C2 by adding the VHF element that is available directly from the manufacturer. It will really help reception of channels 6.1 and 10.1.

Low VHF requires wide elements, typically up to 8-10' in width, for efficient reception.
post #9223 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Simpson View Post

So what is a "quality" signal level?

I guess a quality signal is one that never drops out. wink.gif The Signal Quality meter doesn't mean poor quality vs high quality in the sense of what you see on the TV. It's just a number that has a relationship to the Signal-to-Noise ratio. As long as you're above 16 dB you won't see any difference.
Quote:
As Calaveras has mentioned, the "Signal Strength" listed on your TV is not necessarily indicative of the actual strength of the signal. Every local channel is registering at 90% - 100% except channels 10 and 6 (and a few off-brands which I don't care about). Channel 10 is at 86% and Channel 6 is at 4% (I am in Placerville). Channel 10 is okay, but I know my wife will not deal with the pixellations.

Of course, these values are with me just quickly going out and buying a ClearStream 2 and setting it up in my livingroom on a ladder. I am thinking of getting something slightly better (perhaps a ClearStream 5 for the VHF and keeping the ClearStream 2 for the UHF) and, once I mount it on the roof, I think (cross-fingers) the channel 10 issue will be solved. I am not too hopeful for channel 6.

VHF has a much harder time on an indoor antenna than UHF does because it doesn't penetrate buildings very well. If your UHF signals are that good indoors then you ought to have no problem with an outdoor VHF antenna. There's every reason to expect 6 & 10 to be fine on an outdoor antenna.
Quote:
Does anyone know of an antenna that has both UHF and VHF long range? And something to improve 3 - 6 reception?

A popular large high VHF/UHF antenna is the Winegard HD7698P. If you need low VHF (KCSO?) then you'll need something like the Channel Master 3671 or Winegard HD8200U. I have a friend in Placerville that has a VHF antenna on top of a 100' pine tree and he can't receive KCSO there. Maybe Bob can tell us if he's ever tried it from his location.

Chuck
post #9224 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Simpson View Post

So what is a "quality" signal level?
As Calaveras has mentioned, the "Signal Strength" listed on your TV is not necessarily indicative of the actual strength of the signal. Every local channel is registering at 90% - 100% except channels 10 and 6 (and a few off-brands which I don't care about). Channel 10 is at 86% and Channel 6 is at 4% (I am in Placerville). Channel 10 is okay, but I know my wife will not deal with the pixellations.
Of course, these values are with me just quickly going out and buying a ClearStream 2 and setting it up in my livingroom on a ladder. I am thinking of getting something slightly better (perhaps a ClearStream 5 for the VHF and keeping the ClearStream 2 for the UHF) and, once I mount it on the roof, I think (cross-fingers) the channel 10 issue will be solved. I am not too hopeful for channel 6.
Does anyone know of an antenna that has both UHF and VHF long range? And something to improve 3 - 6 reception?

Please clarify. Is channel 3 KCRA and is channel 6 KVIE? If yes, you don't need an antenna that advertises that it is good for receiving channel 3-6, since that is VHF-Lo. Just a smaller antenna good for VHF-Hi and UHF. KCRA transmit on RF35 and KVIE transmits on RF9.
post #9225 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Simpson View Post

Of course, these values are with me just quickly going out and buying a ClearStream 2 and setting it up in my livingroom on a ladder. I am thinking of getting something slightly better (perhaps a ClearStream 5 for the VHF and keeping the ClearStream 2 for the UHF) and, once I mount it on the roof, I think (cross-fingers) the channel 10 issue will be solved. I am not too hopeful for channel 6.
Does anyone know of an antenna that has both UHF and VHF long range? And something to improve 3 - 6 reception?

For those cable cutters new to OTA reception. It works a little differently now, then simply adjusting rabbit ears from years past.
When Digital HDTV was started, stations needed to keep the analog service on as well. So tv stations used a open UHF channel for the new Digital tv service. Even though your tv says 3-1, etc. It is using a UHF tv channel now. Analog 3, 6 is gone.
In general, most ABC stations in the USA returned to the old analog transmit channel number. Most stations just turned off the analog channel, and never returned to it.
Understand and check so you know what UHF-VHF channel your station is sending the wireless signal on.

Clearstream 2 ? .... or clearstream 5 ?
The clearstream 5 has a bigger loop to pick up larger VHF signals, and pass UHF signals too.
Clearstream 2 has a small loop for UHF, and does not capture the larger VHF signal.

The clearstream 5 may be all you need for VHF / UHF Unless your area has severe signal problems.
Of course, .... the best antennas are usually sold online. (Not big box stores)
People like / love winegard model # 7698, 8200 and models of similar design. Some people like channel master 4228 for UHF
post #9226 of 10016
Hi bkress,
FWIW, I live on the backside of KCSO's upper bear mtn... on their backlobe (i'm pretty sure they don't have a omnidirectional broadcast antenna-they only broadcast towards the valley?). When I was experimenting on my roof, the only way I could get vhf 3 was if I mounted my low vhf vertically polarized.

I ended up taking it down and just using my high vhf antenna for 6 and 10. Not sure how I'd make it permenanty installed... guess I'd need a vhf 3 jointenna....?
Bob C
post #9227 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyc View Post

I ended up taking it down and just using my high vhf antenna for 6 and 10. Not sure how I'd make it permenanty installed... guess I'd need a vhf 3 jointenna....?
Bob C

Hi Bob,

I have this setup right now except I have an FM antenna in place of the low VHF TV antenna. I use two diplexers. One is the normal VHF/UHF diplexer and the other is a low VHF/high VHF-UHF diplexer. The two VHF antennas are connected to that diplexer and its output is connected to the VHF input of the VHF/UHF diplexer. The UHF antenna is connected to UHF input on the VHF/UHF diplexer. All ports pass DC so I can run preamps on each antenna.

I'm using the expensive Tinlee diplexers. There may be less expensive choices. The bands are divided as follows:

Diplexer 1: Low VHF - <156 MHz, High port - >156 MHz. The high port passes 156 - 800 MHz.

Diplexer 2: VHF - <230 MHz, UHF - >470 MHz

I'm using a 2nd diplexer 1 to split off the FM band from high VHF/UHF in the house to an FM tuner.

Chuck
post #9228 of 10016
K45HC, the lat analog station in Walnut Grove , has filed an application with the FCC for a digital station on channel 34 using a very directional antenna pointed towards Sacramento. We'll see if the FCC approves it and then if it's ever built.

Chuck
Edited by Calaveras - 7/23/12 at 1:50pm
post #9229 of 10016
The Business journal reported this morning KCRA-TV is bringing the classic TV network called MeTV to its Sacramento lineup, Kelly Johnson writes. MeTV, which stands for Memorable Entertainment TV, will replace MOREtv Sacramento starting Sept. there is no need now to get KCSO now, anyone want to buy a 2-6 VHF Yagi smile.gif Thanks guys for your help on this it's apreciated
post #9230 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkress View Post

The Business journal reported this morning KCRA-TV is bringing the classic TV network called MeTV to its Sacramento lineup, Kelly Johnson writes. MeTV, which stands for Memorable Entertainment TV, will replace MOREtv Sacramento starting Sept. there is no need now to get KCSO now, anyone want to buy a 2-6 VHF Yagi smile.gif Thanks guys for your help on this it's apreciated

Now if only Hearst Television Inc. would replace their overly high-gain, narrow beam KCRA/KQCA/KMAX antenna that continues to deny much of the foothill viewers reliable DTV reception with a more suitable low-gain, wide-beam antenna! This monstrosity of an antenna makes viewing KCRA and KQCA a real crapshoot with temperature inversions and foothill ridges because the narrowest beam in the ENTIRE state of California consistently misses a large portion of the Sierra foothill viewing audience. NO OTHER Sacramento DTV stations on ANY of the OTHER Walnut Grove lower-gain antennas have this problem to this extreme degree. Very expensive, overly high-gain antennas may be great if you only need to point the antenna at a specific viewer location, but are totally worthless when trying to cover a broad viewer area that includes foothills. The KCRA/KQCA/KMAX antenna is a dinosaur from the analog TV days, and Hearst needs to spend the $$$ to get rid of it!

MeTV? Forget it, I can't even count on watching the Olympics on NBC! TV will be miserable for me during the next few weeks since all of the other stations will be running reruns and trash during the Olympics.
Edited by Smoke_signal - 7/26/12 at 12:46am
post #9231 of 10016
Im up in Grass Valley, which is about 60 miles north as the crow flies from the Sac towers. I tried an indoor antenna with no reception, except for some beautifully rendered spanish channels.....Unfortunately i took down my roof antenna and now I'm thinking I should put another one up...any thoughts on this? (there are a few hills and distance to get anything good).............
post #9232 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

Im up in Grass Valley, which is about 60 miles north as the crow flies from the Sac towers. I tried an indoor antenna with no reception, except for some beautifully rendered spanish channels.....Unfortunately i took down my roof antenna and now I'm thinking I should put another one up...any thoughts on this? (there are a few hills and distance to get anything good).............

Please post a link to your TVFool results so we have an idea what you might be able to receive. You might have good signals from Chico.

Chuck
post #9233 of 10016
Hey all,

I first need to thank Bob and everyone else for their helpful advice.

Here is an update (Placerville area). I still have not mounted anything, but have spent the past week or so running off of the Clearstream 2 to see the weak spots. Channel 10.1 is somewhat weak at odd times during the day. Moreover, even after moving the antenna to the second floor, I still cannot get channel 6.1. The antenna is just sitting on a table in a room on the second floor, so putting it outside might help a little.

On a side note, I have connected the C2 to my PC and am running Windows Media Center with an XBox extender to my TV downstairs. It's a great combination.

At this point, I am likely to look for a larger antenna than necessary just to guarantee good reception. I've narrowed it down to the suggestions given me: the CM-4228HD, the Winegard HD8200U, the Winegard HD7698, or the CM2/CM5 combo.

I know the CM5 is supposed to be great for channels 7 - 13, but isn't this RF channels? If so, aren't all the channels from the local stations on RF 18 - 62? This would make the CM5 useless, would it not?
post #9234 of 10016
I just googled the RF for 6.1 and 10.1 - looks to be 9 and 10. That's my issue I guess.
post #9235 of 10016
Roy,

Order and install the C2 VHF reflector kit directly from the manufacturer. It's listed under accessories and reflectors on their website.
post #9236 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Simpson View Post

Moreover, even after moving the antenna to the second floor, I still cannot get channel 6.1.

Just a shot in the dark here..... Have you run TVFool? I don't suppose you're in a really great spot for KIXE in Redding that is also on RF 9. The northern coverage area of KVIE overlaps with KIXE.

It doesn't make any sense that you're not receiving KVIE. It's possible that they could be interfering with each other.

Chuck
Edited by Calaveras - 7/27/12 at 8:11am
post #9237 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

Roy,
Order and install the C2 VHF reflector kit directly from the manufacturer. It's listed under accessories and reflectors on their website.

Should I also consider the Clearstream 5 as well? I'm trying to get as overkill as possible, otherwise the wife is going to non-stop complain about not having satellite (even though we only watch locals).
post #9238 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Just a shot in the dark here..... Have you run TVFool? I don't suppose you're in a really great spot for KIXE in Redding that is also on RF 9. The northern coverage area of KVIE overlaps with KIXE.
It doesn't make any sense that you're not receiving KVIE. It's possible that they could be interfering with each other.
Chuck

Nope. I am not getting KIXE at all. Only 10.1-10.2 (RF 10) and 6.1-6.3 (RF 9) are issues. Channel 10.1 is the one we watch the most and it was severely pixelated last night (when it was coming in). Right now 10.1 is fine. 6.1-6.3 have never come in.
post #9239 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Simpson View Post

Nope. I am not getting KIXE at all. Only 10.1-10.2 (RF 10) and 6.1-6.3 (RF 9) are issues. Channel 10.1 is the one we watch the most and it was severely pixelated last night (when it was coming in). Right now 10.1 is fine. 6.1-6.3 have never come in.

You don't have to receive KIXE for it to cause a problem. If it's not at least 16 dB weaker than KVIE then you'll receive neither. That's why I was curious about your TV Fool results to see if KIXE was anywhere in the list. Before KVIE went to 9, I used to receive KIXE from time to time even though I have a poor shot in that direction.

KVIE has a good signal and it's curious why you receive KXTV on 10 but not KVIE on 9. How is KTXL 40? KTXL and KVIE's antennas are stacked one on top of the other. If 40 is good, then there's no reason why KVIE should not be good.

Chuck
post #9240 of 10016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

You don't have to receive KIXE for it to cause a problem. If it's not at least 16 dB weaker than KVIE then you'll receive neither. That's why I was curious about your TV Fool results to see if KIXE was anywhere in the list. Before KVIE went to 9, I used to receive KIXE from time to time even though I have a poor shot in that direction.
KVIE has a good signal and it's curious why you receive KXTV on 10 but not KVIE on 9. How is KTXL 40? KTXL and KVIE's antennas are stacked one on top of the other. If 40 is good, then there's no reason why KVIE should not be good.
Chuck

Hi Chuck,

I have attached the TVFool results. I do not even see KIXE on the list.
Radar-All.png 78k .png file
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