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Pioneer Elite Pro-510 problem - Page 77

post #2281 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-TraxxX View Post

What could it be when the Power supply board led would be lit red but no other boards have leds lit? I have resoldered the PS board but I did not check for bad components.

Your conv ICs could be blown and you still may not see the red LED on the conv bd. It happens. Check your fuses on the PS board as well. Often the fuse to one of the power rails going to your conv bd blows, and since it's the one that drives the conv bd's LED, its LED cannot light. Yet the ICs are still bad.

I would change out the old ICs to the new STK 392-180s just as an upgrade, and see if that helps.


b
post #2282 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by ernie67t View Post

My colors seem darker than than my other TVs in the house and have been that way for a long time. It has never been calibrated (7 years old now). What is a reasonable charge to calibrate a set and does anyone know a reputable shop in NW Detroit Mi area?

Your optics will be thoroughly trashed by now, at 7 years. HV causes them to become incredible dust magnets, and grotesque amounts of that dust are grit. See my website for more info.

I can coach you on how to clean your entire optical path, while keeping your extremely fragile plastic surfaces safe. I do this directly with you on the phone, you don't have to hire someone to come in. I would never blindly trust anybody local on something like this. Those optics are extremely high test, extremely fragile, and totally irreplaceable without downing another set by scavenging it for them.

Your set could also use a realignment of the Screen controls that get the biasing energy to your guns. After this many years they need to be realigned on the Pioneers, to be able to deliver the proper amount of energy, as it weakens over the years by drifting off from its original settings.

After it's been cleaned and its energies realigned, your pic will pop again, just like it used to. It'll be like having a brand new set.

That's what I specialize in. Contact me and we can get it done on the phone.


b
post #2283 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Your conv ICs could be blown and you still may not see the red LED on the conv bd. It happens. Check your fuses on the PS board as well. Often the fuse to one of the power rails going to your conv bd blows, and since it's not the one that drives the conv bd's LED, its LED cannot light. Yet the ICs are still bad.

I would change out the old ICs to the new STK 392-180s just as an upgrade, and see if that helps.


b

Purchased two STK 392-180 as recommended and awaiting the items to solder. Since I'm in Toronto canada and they are coming from the US it may be a while. I will keep you guys posted.
post #2284 of 2918
Oops. Meant to say that if the fuse that blew is the one that operates the red LED on the conv bd, that's why that LED might not be lit but you still have a bad IC.

Have corrected in the post, above.

b
post #2285 of 2918
Alright so I pulled out the power supply board and a Digital Multi Meter (DMM) which is a Sperry DM-350A and started checking the Capacitors.

Some good notes that helped:

You can use your multimeter as an ohmmeter to test the capacitor.

1) Discharge the capacitor by shortening its leads. That is - use a wire and connect the leads of the capacitor together. This will discharge it.

2) put your multimeter in the high ranges 10k-1m

3)connect multimeter to capacitor leads(observe the polarity if electrolytic). at soon as the leads make contact, the meter will swing near zero. it will then move slowly toward infinity. finally the meter would come to be infinite ohms because the capacitor is being charged by the battery of the multimeter.

4) if the capacitor is bad, it will go to zero ohms and remain there. this is called a shorted cap capacitor

5) in the case of an open capacitor there will be no ohmmeter indication.

6)some capacitors have a low dielectric leakage. you will know this if the ohmmeter comes to rest at a point lower than infinite. test a known good capacitor of the same type to be sure

Note: To effectively test acapacitor one should use capacitance meter -one that reads in uF nF pF, an ESR meter is very useful for checking electrolytics in circuit, they are cases where the uF was good on acapacitance meter but cap had high ESR as shown on an ESR one. The point is one meter may not adequately serve all your needs.

I started with the primary section of the Power supply board. Here's what I got:

Red: BAD Green: Good Orange: Not Sure

CAPACITORS
C113, C114, C242, C243 ACE1105 Long black
C115, C120,C121,C122 ACE1125 Long black DMM Reading 1
C906 ACE1138 Long black DMM Reading 1
C905 ACE1144 Long black DMM Reading 486
C210 (100 pF) ACG–032
C116, C117, C914, C915 ACG–501
C125 (3300 pF) ACG1008
C111, C112, C126 (4700 pF) ACG1028
C201 ACH1146
C101, C102 ACH1148
C205 ACH1304
C215, C216 CCCSL101K2H
C211–C214 CCCSL221K2H
C209 CEHAT100M2A
C208, C220, C234, C236, C241 CEHAT100M50
C912 CEHAT100M50
C107, C222, C229 CEHAT101M25
C226 CEHAT102M16
C108, C231, C909 CEHAT1R0M50
C110 CEHAT220M50
C202 CEHAT222M50
C908 CEHAT331M10
C245, C907 CEHAT331M16
C203, C204, C207 CEHAT332M35
C235, C910, C911, C913 CEHAT470M25
C901 CEHAT470M2D
C247 CEHAT472M10
C218, C246,C902 CFTXA104J50
C251 CFTXA563J50
C103 CKCYB561K50 DMM Reading 10.0 on 200k
C217 CKCYE103P2H
C109, C219, C223, C224 CKCYF103Z50
C227, C228, C230, C237, C238 CKCYF103Z50
C244 CKCYF473Z50
C232, C916 CQMA104J50
C104 CQMA182J50 DMM Reading 1.5 on 200k
C106 CQMA473J50 DMM Reading 0.2 on 200k
C105
post #2286 of 2918
I have never done this test, primarily because to do it right, you have to desolder at least 1 leg of each cap in order to separate it from all the other components it parallels to in the circuit, which would then affect your measurements. Doing this to all the caps on the board would be extremely cumbersome. But your checking procedure sounds sound...

And there's no need. The only thing that ever goes wrong on these PS boards is the soldering, except for maybe now and then IC 204 going out. I have never seen anything else go out on these due to the poor soldering done by Pioneer. There have been maybe one or 2 DOA's in the last few years, but so few as to not even show up on the radar. Definitely not the going trend...

Other than that, the true trend is that these PS boards have proven to be pretty much bullet proof, no matter how many incidents your set has had because of their being poorly soldered at the factory way back when. Any problems are always on boards downline from the PS board, caused by the poor solder conn's on the PS board. The PS boards themselves are just virtually bullet proof, and last forever once resoldered properly. They just take a licking and keep on ticking...

(I'm dating myself of course... that's from an old Timex commercial from WAY back when...)




BTW, it's "shorted cap", not "shortened cap", just FYI...


b
post #2287 of 2918
This emaill was just received by me. I am reprinting it here, since they wanted to post but could not do so yet, being new members of this forum. As such I am sure they would have no objection to my printing it here. My answer contains critical information for anyone viewing this thread, and needs to be restated over and over, since this thread has gotton so long, making this info hard to find. The beginning stages of this thread are totally useless now, as that info has gotten hopelessly out of date and is actually damaging to your set, if you use that information. What's fresh here is the best, most updated into you can get, on this issue.


On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Thea Eck wrote:

Bob,
I've been reading alot of the posts on the forum. I joined just a short time ago, but I'm waiting for activation before I can post my question.

So... impatients has gotten the best of me and I think you are GREAT. I think my questions are easy.

Is the 510 basically the sameas the 710?

We have had a popping noise for the last year and the TV shuts down. If we unplug it and plug it back in we've been good for weeks at a time. Now it's happening all the time... So I started looking for help. Now it can take more time to be unplugged before it starts working again.

From what I've already read, I think I understand it's the IC's on the conversion board? So we took the back of the TV off and my hubby looked for the conversion board. He is thinking from other descriptions, it's the board with the really big heat sink on the left side?

What IC's should he look for?
Thanks so much!
Thea


My answer -


NO! But those ICs could get damaged very soon if you don't stop using your set! Unplug it and leave it unplugged until fixed properly.

Thanks for the kudos, and I recommend you have me fix it or at the very least someone who makes sure to fix it the way I do, then you'll have little or no worries from then on. Since the ICs have been subjected to mistreatment from the PS board's inherent flaw, they may give way in the future a bit earlier on than normal and need to be replaced. (They may have someday needed to be replaced on GP anyway, but it's slightly more likely to happen after having been subjected to the stresses involved with the PS board's inherent flaw.) Or your ICs may never need to be replaced, even after these stresses. That is actually what usually happens, that they are not affected by the PS board at all and just keep working indefinitely.

But at this point if your set still works properly upon turn-on, it's not the ICs that are at fault, as they don't go intermittent. Once they go, they go.

You must stop using your set, NOW! These problems only happen once it warms up, each time.

And yes the general electronics - everything discussed here on this thread - are the same between the 510, 610 and the 710. And the non-Elite versions as well, plus a substantial part of the 520, 620 and 720 series the following year.


The inherent flaw is that the PS board - the power supply board, the one at the end of the power cord coming from the 120v wall outlet - was badly soldered at the factory, and they have been letting go after aging awhile for years now. Yours will just keep getting worse until something downline from the PS board gets damaged by the lightning bolts that occasionally get sent down into the rest of the circuits from the bad connections in the solder joints of the PS board, which have started to rear their ugly heads on your unit and will only continue to get worse over time and use.

That gets expensive. Still doable, but for many families it totals out the set. The videophiles do whatever it takes to keep it going, the Joe Sixpacks of the world simply wheel it out to the curb and buy new, even tho they paid anywhere from $5000-12000 for their set. That's what was paid retail in the 510/610/710 Elite series back when it was bought new.

NOT what I would recommend! Those sets were - and still are - some of the finest HD displays ever made, and deserve to be fixed and kept alive for years to come. Properly maintained and fully dialed in on their performance, the pictures they produce effortlessly rival anything out there today, and exceed the performance of lots of what's out there today. They are like a Lamborghini - they deserve the finest repairs and tuneups available, and when fully maintained and taken care of, spin circles around the competition.


At this point your only costs would be $275 plus shipping both ways. Chump change for a set this valuable and with such fine looking HD, when kept fully maximized to its true potential. (Insert - this thread is rife with HD screenshots showing how great the pictures are that these sets can produce, just go looking for them if you want to see)


If it is still working properly upon turnon, try it one more time from dead cold. If it works properly as usual, keep it on for no more than 40 seconds, then shut if off again. DO NOT allow it to warm up again until fixed, even once. You have been warned. Intermittent problems are like needed dental work. They never get any better on their own, only worse. Your PS board needs to be resoldered properly, with 99% of the solder joints on the board getting the full resoldering treatment, the exceptions being very specific and very limited. Any less and you're just asking for more advanced trouble down the line. You can do it yourself if you are an exprienced professional who does soldering for a living, or you can ride herd on a local tech to make sure he doesn't do what local techs usually do - resolder only the ones that are bad now. You do that and you are inviting the death of your set later, as the ones that are more damaging to the rest of the set later are not usually the first to go. So you MUST use the shotgun approach on this problem. Many local techs find this tedious because there are hundreds of joints that need to be resoldered, and because of so many super small connections that make it easy to accidentally do solder bridges, which of course are direct shorts. I would definitely not use one who did not want to keep on top of these considerations by making sure to do all that's required. Or you can have me do it, for nominal and very affordable costs.

If you want to do that option contact me directly, no pms please. Let me know that it's working properly from dead cold and I'll send you all the info you need to get that board to me, so I can save your set too.

Or again, have it done by yourself or locally, but whatever you do, stop using your set now! Unplug it until fixed properly - even the passive power supplies that go live whenever the unit is plugged in and the power switch is fully on and awaiting a turnon command, are affected by the bad soldering job done at the factory years ago.

Luckily the PS board is the only one in the set that does this. There are many other boards in there, which remain fully operational and will never have any problems, now or in the future. They are not the issue. The PS board is the only one involved here, at this point. Keep it that way!

Send me your phone number and we can continue this live -

b
post #2288 of 2918
Bob:
If you were local I would pay for you to do this service and just hang on to my 610 because you still can't beat the picture almost 10 years later. But seeing as I don't know of a Bob in the Phoenix area, and I don't have the skills to deal with this problem myself, I have purchased a Samsung and am more than happy to give the Elite to anyone that has your skills.

If anyone wants a free 610, email me at paxtonjm (at) aol dot com

Pat
post #2289 of 2918
And I am glad to fly anywhere I am needed, passport is current. Just rig it up -



b
post #2290 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by ppaxton View Post

Bob:
If you were local I would pay for you to do this service and just hang on to my 610 because you still can't beat the picture almost 10 years later. But seeing as I don't know of a Bob in the Phoenix area, and I don't have the skills to deal with this problem myself, I have purchased a Samsung and am more than happy to give the Elite to anyone that has your skills.

If anyone wants a free 610, email me at paxtonjm (at) aol dot com

Pat

Emailed and PM'd ya Pax
post #2291 of 2918
Just so you know I have had inquiries from Phoenix, and would love to form a calibration tour for that area. I would be glad to share the names and contact info with anyone who wants to set that up. Travel expenses per owner for several owners going in together on calibration tours are next to insignificant, even when the tour is located back East.

With optics cleanings being part of the services offered on such a tour, those who don't want to spring for a full calibration can at least have their optics professionally cleaned by me and bring the travel expenses for each owner in the group down even more. Optics cleaning is absolutely essential in CRT RPTV tech, and if you have not had yours cleaned recently, you have no idea what you're missing. There's nothing like a crystal clear light path!

This can be a DIY item, but at the very least I would recommend doing it with guidance from a pro at the other end of a phone. Those optics are fragile and very easily damaged, and any such damage is immediate and permanent.


b
post #2292 of 2918
Sorry about the cross-post... thought someone might find this interesting or useful...

To make this a little more pertinent to this forum, here's some simple advice. If you are having troubles with your Pioneer Elite Pro-5,6,710HD, I would suggest:

1. Turn it off. Read the forums on the Elites carefully.
2. Contact Mr. Bob. You can find him here. He can point you in the right direction.
3. Think about having your power supply board completely re-soldered immediately--particularly if your set suddenly pops or turns off.
4. Replace your convergence ICs with newer 392-180 ICs. I would do this anyway--but especially if convergence has suddenly gone haywire and you can't adjust it with the regular user settings via the remote.
5. Consider a complete professional convergence and setup and have your lenses deep cleaned.

Do this, and you will be amazed.

Ok, here's the crosspost:

I am the happy owner of both a Pioneer Elite 510 and 520...both of which I obtained for free on Craigslist in my area this past six months. The 510 gave me some trouble initially, but with some excellent advice from Mr. Bob, it is now operating in better than brand new condition IMHO. I have deep cleaned the lenses, both resoldered and replaced PS, deflection, and CRT driver boards, replaced convergence chips with 180s, swapped CRTs and lenses from the 520, performed a 2" shim mod, re-aligned the projection area with black felt, added additional ground straps, and, of course, done a complete convergence.

Needless to say, I now have a smokin' "Franken"-510. At 1080i, It beats the hell out of my LCD. I am watching and enjoying it every night. I am now in process of rebuilding the 520. It is now working at 480p. I just fixed the primary convergence problems that the owner dumped it for by replacing the stock 110 convergence ICs with the 180 ICs from MCM. It needs new blue and green CRTs that were scorched when the 510's deflection board went haywire--due to a bad PS. I have located two tubes in good shape on Ebay...gonna need a full rebuild and coolant replacement. It still needs hours of convergence work too.

A couple things I wanted to mention:

1. Mr. Bob's advise is invaluable. He offers some for free. Read the forums carefully. Lots of good stuff there. If you want to revive your set... it is a good investment of your money to contract his services. In fact, he is quite generous in my opinion. I am not receiving any compensation from Bob for saying that. He can help you.

2. He asked me to post some of my journey to the forum. If there is any interest, I would be happy to share what I learned. Also, would be happy to post some post surgery pics...like my shim mod and my takes on Bob's reference snapshots. Just give me some encouragement and I will happily oblige.

3. Maybe this thread should be "Go ahead and dump your RPTV's!" Why? Someone like me will happily take the TV you spent $6,000 or more on off of your hands...and give it a little TLC and enjoy it for years! ;-)

Sure I had to put some money into these old sets, but they are very much worth it. In a few years, these will be quite scarce...lining the landfills...and that is a shame. The pictures on these things when set up right is absolutely phenomenal! I am so very happy with my Elites!

Cheers!

Joe G.





Here is one of my last conversations with Bob that he suggested I post...


Bob,

I would be happy to do a writeup and of course, I will mention you.
Your help has been invaluable both technically and in motivating me.
It may be a few days... been really busy. Giving up sleep to work on
my projects.

Tonight I replaced the 110s in the 520 with 180s as you recommended.
It was a lot easier than I expected. Totally fixed the convergence
problems...so I am going to buy replacement tubes now as I mentioned
before--now that I know I can totally fix the 520 as well.

Interesting thing, the 180s also appeared to clean up the scan
lines...they seem "tighter" and not as fuzzy. I thought it was just
me...so I also replaced the 110s in the 510 with the 180s. I did not
have to do much with the convergence...I did a quick and dirty with
the user settings. I cannot believe it at all...but the picture is
even better! I really can't believe it! I watched The Fifth Element again
and now I can see the scratches in the cab window, reflections in eyes
as clear as day.

You were right...these TVs rock. That picture smokes my LCD and I
haven't even gone back into the service menu to fine tune the
convergence. The other cool thing is that some of the funky
convergence issues I was having at the corner edges that I have spent
hours working on have now gone completely away. What a difference
those new chips make.

Thanks for that advice too....

Joe
post #2293 of 2918
Bob,

Found this on Craigslist...sadly these are starting to drop like flies in the DC metro area tonight. I am trying very hard to resist this temptation to own another. :-)

Perhaps if you know someone who is looking for help out here...here is the answer maybe. Search "Pioneer Elite" in Northern Virginia.

Pioneer Elite Pro-610HD TV, real projection
Screen went blank recently
Can probably be fixed, or used for parts
About 8 years old

BTW, I have the 520 working at 1080i now. Just waiting on my new old tubes. Also found an acrylic supplier who will cut to order at a reasonable price. Did Pioneer use a cheaper lenticular screen on the 520? The scan lines are much more obvious on this set...maybe I am just getting used to my fine 510 with the shim mod.

Cheers.

Joe
post #2294 of 2918
The lenticular has vertical ribs that disperse the picture sideways properly. I don't think differences in those vertical ribs will translate into differences in the size of the scanlines, which are horizontal.

I think the shim mod is why one looks better than the other...


b
post #2295 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgruessing68 View Post

Did Pioneer use a cheaper lenticular screen on the 520? The scan lines are much more obvious on this set...maybe I am just getting used to my fine 510 with the shim mod.


Pioneer parts shows the 510 and 520 as having the exact same part number for the lenticular screen.

http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/...uctNum=AMR3187


But they do however, show two different ones for the various versions of the 530.


http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/...uctNum=AMR3325

http://parts.pioneerelectronics.com/...uctNum=AMR3388
post #2296 of 2918
Well, I'm back after after almost 4 years, although I started seeing symptoms about 9 months ago and started working on the PS board again. Did not see the note about the new 392-180s until I'd already ordered the 110s again. What is better about the 180s?

Has someone upgraded the PS board yet?
post #2297 of 2918
You don't upgrade the PS board. It's the best possible just as is, once correctly resoldered. The original design has proved to be basically bulletproof. Despite the many cold solder joints that develop over the years on them, once resoldered they last forever, just like they were originally meant to.

Just like all the other boards in there, and there are many.


The 180s are several generations removed and improved from the very old (comparatively) 110s. So were the 120s and 150s, which were also improved upgrades along the way.

They are better built and designed to carry much more of the weight than the 110s. Same with all upgrades of conv IC.


b
post #2298 of 2918
Brad, put the 180s in. I have them in both my 510 and 520...working great.

Bob, et al. I have a question about CRT replacement. I just received my new "old" CRTs to replace the blue and green CRTs in the 520 I am rebuilding that have a scorched line etched in the phosphorus. I just got through the blue gun...removing it from the old hardware (same model tubes, different application), installing it on the 520 hardware. I am now doing a bench coolant leak test. While that is going on, I am contemplating the yoke flyback connection. On these tubes, the wire is shorter than the original Pioneer wires. They can reach, but the routing needs to be more direct. Also, the snap connector for the flyback is different too.. So, I have two choices: 1. Install the old ones on the new tubes...but I'd rather not play with the anode connector on the tube for fear of screwing it up. 2. Splice the cable near the flyback end.

I know that high voltage leakage is a serious concern. If I splice it, I understand I have to make the splice as clean and symmetric as possible with solder and insulate/seal and seal again. I was thinking cutting a section of the same insulator to do this, sealing it with silicone, letting it dry, and covering it with heat shrink.

Is this an acceptable approach? If not, what is?

Thanks guys.

Joe
post #2299 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgruessing68 View Post

Brad, put the 180s in. I have them in both my 510 and 520...working great.

Bob, et al. I have a question about CRT replacement. I just received my new "old" CRTs to replace the blue and green CRTs in the 520 I am rebuilding that have a scorched line etched in the phosphorus. I just got through the blue gun...removing it from the old hardware (same model tubes, different application), installing it on the 520 hardware. I am now doing a bench coolant leak test.

Unnecessary, IMHO. I have never seen the Pioneers leak. They have overflow bladders, like Mit shoulda used.

Quote:


While that is going on, I am contemplating the yoke flyback connection. On these tubes, the wire is shorter than the original Pioneer wires. They can reach, but the routing needs to be more direct. Also, the snap connector for the flyback is different too.. So, I have two choices: 1. Install the old ones on the new tubes...but I'd rather not play with the anode connector on the tube for fear of screwing it up.

This is what I would do. Stuff some brillo pad in there under the suction cup, like in a plasma ball, and seal it real good with silicone.

Quote:


2. Splice the cable near the flyback end.

I know that high voltage leakage is a serious concern. If I splice it, I understand I have to make the splice as clean and symmetric as possible with solder and insulate/seal and seal again. I was thinking cutting a section of the same insulator to do this, sealing it with silicone, letting it dry, and covering it with heat shrink.

Did you possibly mean of the same conductor, rather than insulator?

Quote:


Is this an acceptable approach? If not, what is?

Thanks guys.

Joe

With enough silicone you'd be OK doing this. Each approach takes about the same amount of time, I would think -

b
post #2300 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Unnecessary, IMHO. I have never seen the Pioneers leak. They have overflow bladders, like Mit shoulda used.
b

You were of course right. I won't waste the time doing that again with the green gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

This is what I would do. Stuff some brillo pad in there under the suction cup, like in a plasma ball, and seal it real good with silicone.
b

I have learned to go with your suggestions.

Are there any clever ways of getting the rubber boot off without damaging it...other than being damn careful?

Tell me more about the Brillo...should I jam it into the hole on the tube or just ball it under the rubber boot?

Is there a special silicone used for this or run-off-the-mill stuff from the hardware store?

Is it ok to shorten the wire...for example, in the case of the blue gun? Will it hurt to not follow Pioneers routing along the tray...as long as I take care to keep the wire a safe distance from everything else...like they do near the flyback?

Thanks again, Bob.

post #2301 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgruessing68 View Post

You were of course right. I won't waste the time doing that again with the green gun.



I have learned to go with your suggestions.

Are there any clever ways of getting the rubber boot off without damaging it...other than being damn careful?



No other than using a window scraper type mount for the razor blade or other such device to get in there. If you slice the boot it's OK as long as you submerge that slice in more silicone. Really can't use too much silicone on it...

Gotta let it dry and cure for 24 hours before running it tho. OK to run it just for testing, but no more than a few seconds. If you do you'll see a hole eventually form in the silicone, with the HV trying to escape.

Quote:


Tell me more about the Brillo...should I jam it into the hole on the tube or just ball it under the rubber boot?

Don't make it too tight, just enough to take up all the space in there. Find a plasma ball and study it. They use the same HV technology. Brillo, not SOS pad.


Quote:


Is there a special silicone used for this or run-off-the-mill stuff from the hardware store?

Hardware store stuff is fine, as long as it sets up flexible.

Quote:


Is it ok to shorten the wire...for example, in the case of the blue gun?

Length is inconsequential, when it's just inches here and there.

Quote:


Will it hurt to not follow Pioneers routing along the tray...as long as I take care to keep the wire a safe distance from everything else...like they do near the flyback?

Thanks again, Bob.

No idea. Never tried doing it any other way. I would think as long as you say away from everything in there you'll be fine. If not let us know -

Great to see your adventursome spirit! Reminds me of my endeavors on the shimming op.



b
post #2302 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

No other than using a window

Don't make it too tight, just enough to take up all the space in there. Find a plasma ball and study it. They use the same HV technology. Brillo, not SOS pad.

Hardware store stuff is fine, as long as it sets up flexible.

Length is inconsequential, when it's just inches here and there.

No idea. Never tried doing it any other way. I would think as long as you say away from everything in there you'll be fine. If not let us know -

Great to see your adventursome spirit! Reminds me of my endeavors on the shimming op.

b


I don't know what it's like out there, but it is damn hard to find Brillo here in northern Virginia anymore. Finally got some after visiting 6 stores. I got the plasma ball concept...will try. Going to use Pure Silicone II caulk... either the fast setup or gutter sealant type. I am going to try a shorter run straight through the tray to the flyback. I will let you know how that works. I'll report back in a few days...after the silicone cures.

If things are going well, I will take and post pics of the process.

Thanks!

Joe
post #2303 of 2918
So, completed the upgrade to the 180s but I'm starting to think that wasn't the problem. My convergence is still totally trashed with the Red and Green being not to far off but the Blue is way off to the right side. I can't get the center points to sync up...

Am I looking at another part or just a convergence update? Is there any way to reset this to defaults?
post #2304 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradturner32 View Post

So, completed the upgrade to the 180s but I'm starting to think that wasn't the problem. My convergence is still totally trashed with the Red and Green being not to far off but the Blue is way off to the right side. I can't get the center points to sync up...

Am I looking at another part or just a convergence update? Is there any way to reset this to defaults?

Brad,

I'm gonna put my $.02 in just on my recent experience. I just replaced the ICs in both my sets. In one case, the convergence didn't change that much. In the other case where the ICs were actually going bad, it was a lot different. I had to do a complete re-convergence as per the system manual...starting with the yoke magnets. You may need to readjust the blue gun. Is it also off on the single cross convergence screen? If not, ignore what I said.

As an experiment, I also swapped the convergence boards. In both cases, I still had complete control over the convergence settings, but the convergence was all screwed up. Putting them back in their original sets, everything went back as it was.

I don't think you should expect the grids to be closely aligned just because you put new chips in...there are lots of variables at play. How far is "way off"? Is it at least a normal grid and geometrically consistent with the other two guns? When my one sets convergence went bad, one color grid twisted severely and could not be corrected. That problem went away with the new chips.

I believe if you go into the service menu and change something in the geometry or convergence screens and exit normally it resets the "user" defined settings to defaults.

Maybe that is useful info to you. I will leave it to the experts to comment/correct.

Joe
post #2305 of 2918
Thanks Joe,

The single cross convergence screen is way off for the blue gun. I did see an earlier post with some service bulletins that sounded simliar which can be due to a bad solder joint so I get to reinspect my handywork tonight; however, I'm thinking it's something else.

Is there a wiki or post anywhere that explains the convergence options in the SM? I can get there, but I have no clue what I'm doing once I'm there.

The last time I replaced my ICs it came up pristine with only minor touchups needed on the multi-point, but the multi-point screen shows the blue lines severely concaved to the right.
post #2306 of 2918
Bad ICs have been known to happen when new and supposedly perfect. Have tried replacing the replacements?

There are also other parts of the circuit that can go bad. The convergence generator could be at fault, the ICs are only amplifiers of the waveforms coming from the generator board.

I once had a Sony where the minus line had a bad part in it where it formed a feedback loop. Since each channel is an op amp, a minus is required to go along with the actual signal going to the plus part of the amp's input. That minus line has been designed very carefully and has to be balanced and fully intact for the circuit to work properly. That same part of the circuit is repeated 6 times identically, one OP amp per channel: hor and vert for each of the 3 colors.

If anything about the setup of that minus leg circuit has gone out or for any other reason the circuit on that channel becomes incomplete, the same kind of aberration can happen. Replacing the ICs usually cures the sit, but that's not exactly cast in stone. Other things can be at fault.

I am having that happen right now on a Mit. I have replaced the one single 6 channel IC and still one of the channels is non-functional. Odds are against the IC being at fault when the same channel of the 6 is the only one affected, again. Just like the Sony, I expect it will be in the same section, that minus op amp leg. I will be going back Monday for a third look. The second look was replacing the IC, which usually does the job but not always.



In this case I have had to reschedule it, as the home is an hour each way and after the repair I also have to complete the calibration that was interrupted by the malfunction! Monday is the first day the owner will be available all day, and I didn't want to risk the travel time and gas when I might not have the time to complete the cal after the repair.



b
post #2307 of 2918
The convergence method is described in the service manual, but everything isn't super obvious. It took me several days to learn the navigation. In case you don't have the manual...obviously you can buy it. If you look carefully enough through the forums, you might be surprised what links you find. I was. ;-) Hint: go to pioneer's site and find out the names of the manuals first.

The closest thing to a wiki I found was here... it's a good starter:
http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/brand...nvergence.html

You'll find lots of good stuff there...some from Bob too!

Joe
post #2308 of 2918
And when you're ready to truly trick it out, get ahold of me and get exposed to the fine points of how to make the Pioneer Elite and non-Elite convergence co-operate as only 20+ years of experience on these babies can show you.



b
post #2309 of 2918
Can you take a pic? In SM, you may be able to bend the corner back into shape once you see how the interaction of the surrounding grid points behaves by playing. I suggest you write down your values for each first, so you can get right back where you started.

If it were me, I would also play with the blue crosshair and pull it in to center. Then look at the grid and see if it is better. Before you do this, take a black sharpie and make a line across the magnet tabs on the blue gun so you can get right back where you started if you get frustrated or it is not working. This is not for the uninitiated. I spent hours playing with this to get it right. First, you need to get the glue loose on the tabs without breaking them. If you break them, you are buying an new part (not too expensive, though). I had to take one of mine out completely and disassemble to break the glue bond. Once you've done that, I suggest moving both tabs around so you can see how the two sets of tabs interact...it's not trivial. BTW, be careful what you are touching, of course. You can move the tabs with your finger...just don't go near the circuit board with your palm!

If that doesn't work, Bob's advice makes sense of course. Try new chips. After that...it gets really serious. I am sure a new board from Pioneer would work...but ouch! If you're gonna spend that much, it makes sense to fly Bob in!

Joe
post #2310 of 2918
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgruessing68 View Post

Can you take a pic? In SM, you may be able to bend the corner back into shape once you see how the interaction of the surrounding grid points behaves by playing. I suggest you write down your values for each first, so you can get right back where you started.

If it were me, I would also play with the blue crosshair and pull it in to center. Then look at the grid and see if it is better.

If the blue centering from the user menu is not functional, then of course you can move the blue to center via the magnet rings, but you still will not be able to move the image with the proper commands. This has to be handled before anything else can happen.

If you move the centering with the magnet rings and then get the commands operating properly, you'll probably find the image will need to go right back where it started.


Quote:


Before you do this, take a black sharpie and make a line across the magnet tabs on the blue gun so you can get right back where you started if you get frustrated or it is not working. This is not for the uninitiated. I spent hours playing with this to get it right. First, you need to get the glue loose on the tabs without breaking them. If you break them, you are buying an new part (not too expensive, though). I had to take one of mine out completely and disassemble to break the glue bond.

I would not take the magnet yokes out. Their position on the CRT neck is just as crucial as the position of the rings themselves. Not only is where the rings are relative to each other and the holder critical, the position of the rings holder on the CRT neck is just as critical, including forward/back/side-turn/side-turn of each one.

Quote:


Once you've done that, I suggest moving both tabs around so you can see how the two sets of tabs interact...it's not trivial. BTW, be careful what you are touching, of course. You can move the tabs with your finger...just don't go near the circuit board with your palm!

If that doesn't work, Bob's advice makes sense of course. Try new chips. After that...it gets really serious. I am sure a new board from Pioneer would work...but ouch! If you're gonna spend that much, it makes sense to fly Bob in!

Joe

If you get a new board from Pioneer, the pic it produces may not even be close to what you are used to, and you may even need to start from scratch! Board replacement on the conv sys is never what I would recommend except as a last resort.

And the tabs affect things not only by turning them both around together, but also against each other. Both turnings have their own effects, and you gotta feel them out as to what does what, in positioning your image on the gun.

b
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