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Pioneer Elite Pro-510 problem - Page 92

post #2731 of 2889
11/5/11 at 11:27am
Did you just dodge a bullet! Never never never do that on-off-on-off "in quick succession thing" again! That's how little kids blow our big sets up! They love to do stuff like that, and it's poison to our sets! You're lucky you only blew a fuse.

You also disregarded one of the prime tenets of the resoldering op I have been writing about here for years: you only did part of the job! You didn't future proof it by doing the whole thing, with only some very tiny allowable exceptions. You didn't do 99% of the board, like you MUST, if you want to keep your set safe. You probably did only 20% of it, if that. That's why I always recommend never to use local repair techs, because that's all they usually ever do. Doing it only partway sets it up for a much more powerful failure later, which could very well total your set.

My advice is to unplug the dang thing until you've gone in there and done the job right. Observe the tiny exceptions I've specified in many parts of this thread, and aside from them resolder the whole PS board! You obviously love your set, so take care of it, and stop playing Russian Roulette with it!



b
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post #2732 of 2889
11/5/11 at 1:03pm
You are right, of course. (I did a pretty thorough soldering job the first time...probably 90-95% of the joints.)

If I actually had another TV in the house, I'd rip into this thing and really make it a project.

Bob...question for you: when I took the chipboard backing off the rear of the set, I noticed that there was a gap between that horizontal particleboard "shelf" (a little more than midway up) and the molded plastic back piece at the top...sort of like that particleboard "sagged" right in the middle. Shouldn't that area be sealed to help keep debris from getting on the lenses and mirror?
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post #2733 of 2889
11/5/11 at 2:16pm
Nothing is gonna keep out all the airborne particulates floating in the air. No matter how small or big - eventually including copious amounts of grit - if they are airborne they will eventually be drawn to and embed themselves upon the surfaces in there, notably the optics - lenses and mirror - and AFAIK the cavity cannot be sealed well enough to keep them out. There are 28 optical surfaces in there, and 10 of them get ferociously dirty on your set. This can't be avoided because of the 30 KV used in the process of CRT, which creates a static field inside the optical cavity, which is just above the HV section of the set.

The best thing to do is regular optics cleanings, and you gotta be VERY CAREFUL with those surfaces, as they are made of relatively soft plastic, are totally exposed to the air, and as such are incredibly vulnerable. As such only special methods should be used, which of course I specialize in, if you want to know more.

The next best thing you can do is put an ionizer behind your set so the air OUTSIDE the cabinet and optical cavity will get ionized and develop the static cling out there. Preventing airborne particulates from getting inside where they can mount up and glop up your optics with a blanketing of themselves. All airborne "stuff" will zap itself instead to the outside of your cabinet, and won't be able to navigate the tiny crevices by which they enter the optical cavity right now, without being drawn onto the plastic or wood surfaces themselves, keeping them away from your optics and thus harmless.

The outside of your set will grow to be very dusty and dirty - but the inside will stay a lot more crisp and clear than without that ionizer there.

b
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post #2734 of 2889
11/24/11 at 10:09am
This was just posted on another thread, thought I'd share it with you here -


Quote:
Originally Posted by najames View Post

Holy Cow Dave Harper!!! You said ISF is in Florida, so I decided to see where they're located. They're about 5-10 minutes from my house!! Didn't even know it, too darned funny.

I have an elderly Pioneer SD-532HD5 like this one.

http://www4.shopping.com/xFS?KW=pion...Video&FD=85747

I might just need to have this thing calibrated some day. It works OK and has been moved across the country twice, in storage for a couple years, never been touched except when I used the Avia disk set it up initially and when I moved here in Boca Raton 3 years ago.

Just noticed this post in another thread, from way back in '05.

Just so you know, those "elderly" CRT RPTVs are not old, they have a 20 year service life - or more, I've seen it, recently heard about a 29 year old Panny CRT 50" that's still cranking away just fine - and at today's stage are only halfway thru it. I know of an "old" curved screen bounce-off-the-screen Sears CRT whose guns fire at the hinged mirror that you pull out and let fall into place to start it up, that's still cranking away just fine too. We've been looking for someone to take it home and keep it going, or hopefully get it to some sort of video museum, tho I have never actually heard of one...

Well treated by their owners re. usage, light levels and avoidance of screenburn, they are capable of WAY better than new performance, even at 11 years old.

I am being flown all over the country cleaning and calibrating these "elderly" beasts, which are capable of incredible HD, head and shoulders better than a lot of the "affordable" fixed pixel offerings out there in today's marketplace. And better looking in some ways than all fixed pixel offerings.

The main thing that not everybody knows about them is that their optics need to be cleaned yearly, and on some brands - like the Pioneers, be they Elite or non-Elite - the "deeper optics" need it every few years as well. That's because of the air gap between the lens barrels and the CRT coolant covers, where 6 additional surfaces get invaded by dust, soot, smoke and all manner of other airborn contaminants, and thus compromised because of the high voltage turning them into powerful, continuous dust magnets every moment they are powered on. There's 28 optical surfaces in there that need to stay crystal clear, 10 of which get heavily compromised because of the HV. When all 28 surfaces are clean and polished and you have a crystal clear light path again, the results are truly astonishing. Like getting a brand new TV for a simple hour's work.

Just doing this one thing gives your "elderly" set a brand new looking picture - in my area my calibrations are called "The Sparkle Process" - and calibration after that is just incredible icing on the cake.

I started the "Don't Dump Your CRT RPTV!" thread here on AVS more than 5 years ago, and it is still going strong, with over 300 complete pages so far and over 9000 posts. If you have a CRT RPTV at all, HD or non-HD, I invite you to go over there and check it out.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95922&page=327

If you have a CRT RPTV or know someone who does and want info about how to do your optics cleaning with no damage - those soft plastic surfaces in there are incredibly delicate, vulnerable and easily scratched, and any damage to them is permanent - contact me directly, by email or phone. No pm's please!

Thx -

Mr Bob
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post #2735 of 2889
11/29/11 at 9:54am
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-s...AdIdZ334313567
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post #2736 of 2889
12/3/11 at 4:20pm
The latest, from last week. This board was an accident waiting to happen.

Notice the pair of solder joints about to go bad on the left of the pic at upside down "R218", to the left of the really bad one at "L219". Both ends of resistor 218 have the telltale "halo" around the leg that eventually turns into the very obvious one on the right at L219. While that pair of halos at R218 is looking very innocent right now, it's only a matter of time before the on/off-heat up/cool down-expand/contract cycles of normal operation cause those halos to get cut deeper and deeper into the solder they are in, until both of them "go 360" like the circle of complete non-connection that's so very garishly apparent in the one to the right at L219.

Plus the one just at the edge of the shadow and the one just below that, in the string of pin connections to the right:









And for those of you wondering if I am still doing this, yes I am. Keep sending me your boards and I'll keep your big screens working.

b
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post #2737 of 2889
12/3/11 at 9:44pm
Today's batch, from the board in front of me right now -





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post #2738 of 2889
12/5/11 at 8:47am
I just added some stuff to post #2736 above, if you've already read it you might want to go over it again -

b
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post #2739 of 2889
12/18/11 at 5:11pm
Speaking of immortal RPTV's, I have one someone may want. Wife is giving this one the boot, only for size. It's a Pioneer Pro-610, with a power board repaired by Mr. Bob, who tells me there is a lifetime warranty on that work. TV is in Los Altos, CA and ready to go. Was purchased in 2001, and was in one location all those years. Price is negotiable, but I'm a motivated seller. Mr. Bob tells me it's worth about $250.

Doug Doyle
antfugue@yahoo.com
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post #2740 of 2889
12/24/11 at 10:18am
Well, I said it would only BRING IN about $250. Anyone who knows me knows I feel it's worth a WHOLE lot more than that!



b
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post #2741 of 2889
12/24/11 at 10:19am
This was posted recently on Yelp! by my bizness partner Janet Mackenzie, revealing a huge vice of www.yelp.com. I mention it here because a recent customer just decided to Yelp! me, and now I finally have 2 TWO of the 6 SIX Yelp! reviews written there about me actually showing! All are 5 star reviews, yet only 2 are showing.



This is one of the reviews that exist there but isn't posted! It's been filtered!

The only way to see the other 4 is to bring up the ones that do show and look for the "filtered" link below them. It looks like this: (4 Filtered)




If you reading this would like to help spread the word about this thread and if any of you whom I have personally helped would like to share about it on a venue very far away from here at the AVS, I would really appreciate a Yelp! review, as the more you use Yelp!, the less you get filtered. Go figure...

Anyway, Janet did a wonderful job of revealing this incredible injustice being perpetrated upon unsuspecting small businesses like mine. Thanks so much Janet!



Read on -



Quote:


Oakland, CA

11/7/2011
Yelp explains on its website that it "has an automated filter that suppresses a small portion of reviews - it targets those suspicious ones you see on other sites." Small portion??? If their automated filter were an employee I'd fire it. Then I'd hire PEOPLE to assess the authenticity of customer reviews.

Yelp's automated filter hid 75% of the 5-star reviews about Image Perfection.

As someone who helps Image Perfection out with the administrative facets of its business (oops, I guess my rant will go into the filter), I can say that every one of those reviews were written by real, PAYING customers. I personally spoke with them when they first called about the problems their Home Theater Systems were having. Now happy campers, they are thrilled with how the owner, Bob Jones, saved them THOUSANDS of dollars by not only reviving their dead systems but tweaking them to a point where they deliver as stunning a picture as when they were new.

Bob is known across the country as one of, if not the, most knowledgeable professionals in his area of expertise. If anyone were to search "Mr Bob avs forum", they would find Bob started a thread at http://www.afsforum.com six years ago. This thread is dedicated solely to the repair and optimization of Home Theater Systems. It contains 9,000 posts, including hundreds of testimonials, and it's still going strong. Bob's out-of-town customers (that is, outside of the San Francisco Bay Area) are willing to shell out the extra bucks it takes to fly him to their locale, because they know how satisfied they will once Bob touches their sets.

Yelp's filter does an incredible injustice to Bob and other business owners whose clientele have nothing but good things to say about them. It does a disservice to those who read its reviews as well, because it doesn't give a picture that is accurate enough to help them make a sound decision as to who to call and ultimately buy from.

Image Perfection has prospered for years and will continue to prosper without the "help" of Yelp. Other businesses might not be as bullet proof though, so like a bull in a china shop, Yelp's Automated Filter has the potential to break them.

If you are interested in learning about Yelp's filter check this out: http://www.youtube.com.... Notice they have the Comments feature disabled. I wonder why.
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post #2742 of 2889
1/21/12 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

No, we are on page 89.



b

That's what us forum folks call "noob settings" =)

I have my forum options setup to show either 50 or 100 posts per page, which brings my page count # to about half of what you are viewing with.

BTW, my 510 is still doing good, though seems quite dim these days...
Any love with that DC tour? Anything possible this year?

Thanks!

-- Dave
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post #2743 of 2889
1/22/12 at 2:12am
I'm ready. Send me a plane ticket. Get at least 3 calibrations and/or optics cleanings (CRT or fixed pixel, all projection types need optics cleanings eventually) to help you guys defray the travel expenses and for me to make my time in the air there and back worth it. DC is a number of hours away from CA.

Yes, my PC and laptop and netbook all say page 260 but as you say, your settings may change that on your computer.


You have more than enough time with me on the phone already paid for, Dave, for me to be glad to spend some time with you guiding you thru the un-dimming/rebrightening realignment process on your set and then some. You have always been a quick study, and for you this will be a piece of cake. Contact me and let's get it on! I am free tomorrow/Sunday if you are, you will need a DVD copy of VE or a bluray or HD DVD copy of DVE -



b
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post #2744 of 2889
1/24/12 at 8:34pm
Hi
My 710 has served me faithfully over 10 years. I have noticed that periodically when i change channels is get a screen of diagonal white dots on my screen. This only happens for a second. also in general I got a nasty overscan. I would like to upgrade to a larger sceen but as long as I get a picture on the 710 I will wait.

Thanks for any input

Rob
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post #2745 of 2889
1/24/12 at 10:21pm
On what tuner? The NTSC built-in tuner, for 480i OTA channels, which was the only tuner your set came with? Or on a cable or satellite tuner?

Overscan can be cured -

b
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post #2746 of 2889
1/24/12 at 10:38pm
2 boxes arrived today, guess which one I shudder to open?





Uploaded with ImageShack.us



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post #2747 of 2889
1/25/12 at 9:19pm
hi Bob
I have a directv tuner. that I had for quite some time. But what are some common symptoms that would tell me my 710 is going out.

thanks in advance for any info.

Rob
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post #2748 of 2889
1/25/12 at 9:23pm
None that I know of. These babies are like the Energizer Bunny. They just keep going, and going, and going...

The PS boards in them needed resoldering, but once that's been done, they just keep going, and going, and going...

Eventually the convergence ICs on lots of CRT RPTVs go out, but that's like a thermostat on a car. You gonna go out and buy a new car just because the thermostat goes out? No. You take care of it, so it can keep going, and going, and going...

b
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post #2749 of 2889
1/26/12 at 9:11am
Went to watch a Fox program that I'd DVR'd the other day, and got a little surprise. Somebody in the broadcast booth decided to send out over the air Fox's frame line chart. I've seen color bars before, but never this on TV! Anyways, as somebody that has filmed these very charts for some of the shows I've worked on, I knew exactly what I was looking at. (click on pic to make larger)

Attachment 235375

As you can see, you've got your 4:3 pumpkin (edge markers), 16:9, both what are considered TV safe. What that means is so long as info is contained within those markers, every TV should be able to see all info no matter what kind of overscan might be being employed. This obviously applies most to TVs from the CRT era. The arrows would indicate the absolute edge of picture signal that could go out. I've seen on a few people's flat panels where the very top of the picture is showing what I'd describe as white bleed, cause the station is pushing it right to those arrows and the TV is seeing beyond.

Anyways, those of you with a Blu Ray of Video Essentials or the like have probably seen these and used 'em on your sets to measure overscan. I only have a DVD copy, and in 480p the overscan on my Pioneer 510 isn't so bad. It's when I'm in HD that things have always been bad, but I didn't know how bad it actually was.

See, the guy in the broadcast booth displayed the frame chart twice. The first one seen above, well that one is windowboxed. This next one, this is what is actually broadcast. Why both were sent out, who knows, but I'm glad it happened.

Attachment 235376

HOLY CRAP!!

I never realized how much info I was really having cropped. It appears that it's off center too, as the right side is cropping more than the left. I mean you can't even see the right side markers! And check out how much I'm missing from the top and bottom. Picture is inside of the TV Safe zone, let alone not remotely close to the outer arrow edges! I've viewed shows where people's heads are cut cleanly off, but shrugged it off as bad composition, as usually there was a foreground element that was really the focus of the frame. Now I know.

So fellow 510 owners, is your overscan this atrocious?
LL
LL
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post #2750 of 2889
1/26/12 at 5:31pm


Welcome to the real world.

Yup, they were all like that, all CRT RPTVs. I have been correcting that for at least a decade in my calibrations, one reason overscan reduction has become a highly popular staple in my calibration arsenal.

Good news is, it's ALL recoverable. What's missing hasn't been eliminated at all - it's all still there, you're just not seeing it. And when you get your overscan reduction done via the shimming op, you get an improvement in depth to boot. There are extensive pictures in this thread and others, showing before and after what I lovingly call O'scan Redux.

b
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post #2751 of 2889
1/28/12 at 10:17pm
Hey Bob...

Been off the forum for awhile just enjoying my set... thought I'd drop in.

Is it possible to physically disable SVM on the Elites CRT boards like you can on other sets? I looked at the schematic, and it isn't obvious if its possible. Can you enlighten me, please? Thanks.

I know you can disable it in the menu, but I am getting a bit obsessive withe my tweaking... lol.

Joe
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post #2752 of 2889
1/29/12 at 9:46am
SVM goes to coils that one each surround the neck of each picture tube. Each coil has 2 little wires going to it, maybe white or yellow, can't remember right now, and you usually unplug them.

HOWEVER~!

You gotta stay away from unplugging any of the sweep wires, which are much more thick. Without hor and vert sweep there would just be one super powerful dot in the center of the screen, hundreds if not thousands of times more powerful than it should be. It would vaporize those phosphors in that area instantly, faster than a phaser would, and the area surrounding the blast zone would be affected too. The resulting dot blast would show from then on, in every scene that has any content in it. I was not paying attention once and did that on a Mit set long before HD, and the entire gun had to be replaced and fully set up/calibrated to the red and blue guns. All techs have done things they don't necessarily want to crow about, and this is one reason I am SUPER careful these days on every move I make on my set or anybody else's. It's also why I advise anybody not already knowing what they are doing to NOT experiment in there! Way too much is riding on it.

So be ABSOLUTELY SURE you have the correct coil wires in mind before disco'ing anything and turning your set on again!


Personally I'd stay away from that mod, Joe. Too much is at stake. Your pic needs some level of ee anyway. I did the CraigR ee mod on my Mit, and even a calibrator who uses o'scopes in his cals like Craig does, emphasizes that the correct way to get the best crispness - notice I didn't say sharpness, which has garnered itself a questionable reputation - is to have just the right level of edge enhancement. Not none. Which is what his mod does and what I did when I used his mod to fine tune mine, on my 73". It installs a variability circuit to replace the fixed settings of the factory design.

The same message came from Runco when I did my training there - they said to use the lettering in graphics to set your ee level, going for the best crispness, all by eye.


So I would leave it alone, as far as invading the wiring or disabling it fully. I'd play with the User settings, and see how much crispness you can get without objectionable edge enhancement/Sharpness.

In the service menu, I usually nearly max out the service menu Detail setting - I put it at 120 of a possible 127 - and play with the Sharpness register, which many times needs to be rared down quite a bit from factory levels. But I always fine tune it. I never turn any of those things off or disconnect them.

On Mits's I take the service menu setting for VM from factory 2 to 1, but never to zero, which I could also do. It's there if I want it. I could also quite readily disco their coils, it's very obvious on a Mit. But I never do that either, because too little gives you too soft a picture. It's as bad as too much.


So my recommendation would be to stay away from disconnecting or disabling any of that stuff, on any CRT RPTV, regardless of brand. Not only is it unnecessary, it is invading the design and wiring of the unit, which can always turn into a potential landmine instantly, cooking your goose before you can blink, without even warming up the water.

Professionals know this and stay away from any unnecessary experimentation, unless the upside is going to be absolutely worth it, like the CraigR ee mod, or Owen's shimming op.

The downside is just too risky.

b
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post #2753 of 2889
1/29/12 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

SVM goes to coils that one each surround the neck of each picture tube. Each coil has 2 little wires going to it, maybe white or yellow, can't remember right now, and you usually unplug them.

HOWEVER~!

You gotta stay away from unplugging any of the sweep wires, which are much more thick. Without hor and vert sweep there would just be one super powerful dot in the center of the screen, hundreds if not thousands of times more powerful than it should be. It would vaporize those phosphors in that area instantly, faster than a phaser would, and the area surrounding the blast zone would be affected too. The resulting dot blast would show from then on, in every scene that has any content in it. I was not paying attention once and did that on a Mit set long before HD, and the entire gun had to be replaced and fully set up/calibrated to the red and blue guns. All techs have done things they don't necessarily want to crow about, and this is one reason I am SUPER careful these days on every move I make on my set or anybody else's. It's also why I advise anybody not already knowing what they are doing to NOT experiment in there! Way too much is riding on it.

So be ABSOLUTELY SURE you have the correct coil wires in mind before disco'ing anything and turning your set on again!


Personally I'd stay away from that mod, Joe. Too much is at stake. Your pic needs some level of ee anyway. I did the CraigR ee mod on my Mit, and even a calibrator who uses o'scopes in his cals like Craig does, emphasizes that the correct way to get the best crispness - notice I didn't say sharpness, which has garnered itself a questionable reputation - is to have just the right level of edge enhancement. Not none. Which is what his mod does and what I did when I used his mod to fine tune mine, on my 73". It installs a variability circuit to replace the fixed settings of the factory design.

The same message came from Runco when I did my training there - they said to use the lettering in graphics to set your ee level, going for the best crispness, all by eye.


So I would leave it alone, as far as invading the wiring or disabling it fully. I'd play with the User settings, and see how much crispness you can get without objectionable edge enhancement/Sharpness.

In the service menu, I usually nearly max out the service menu Detail setting - I put it at 120 of a possible 127 - and play with the Sharpness register, which many times needs to be rared down quite a bit from factory levels. But I always fine tune it. I never turn any of those things off or disconnect them.

On Mits's I take the service menu setting for VM from factory 2 to 1, but never to zero, which I could also do. It's there if I want it. I could also quite readily disco their coils, it's very obvious on a Mit. But I never do that either, because too little gives you too soft a picture. It's as bad as too much.


So my recommendation would be to stay away from disconnecting or disabling any of that stuff, on any CRT RPTV, regardless of brand. Not only is it unnecessary, it is invading the design and wiring of the unit, which can always turn into a potential landmine instantly, cooking your goose before you can blink, without even warming up the water.

Professionals know this and stay away from any unnecessary experimentation, unless the upside is going to be absolutely worth it, like the CraigR ee mod, or Owen's shimming op.

The downside is just too risky.

b

Bob,

Thanks for the quick reply. This is pretty much exactly how i expected you would answer. The warning is well understood. I was hoping you'd confirm the wires I was planning to disco, and you did.

The annoying problem I am trying to solve is that even with the SVM off and the sharpness register dialed way down, there are still artifacts around the edges of things in HD around areas of high contrast (content--not setting). I have not found an acceptable level of sharpness to detail in SM to eliminate this. I have my detail set to 120. What range do you normally find works for you for the sharpness register?

I noticed that some techs were indeed disconnecting SVM on other sets...like Toshibas... and the results were generally very good for true HD, and not as good for live content. It turns out that the artifical EE is quite beneficial in those cases. Since I am mainly interested in watching Bluerays and streaming HD, I am not as concerned about the resulting "softness" they seem to be talking about. Does that make sense?

I wasn't going to try this first on my beloved 710. I've got the 510, and a bunch of sets I fixed for my brother. One of those can be the guinea pig. There is one in particular that needs a complete cal. Worst case, I have a box full of multiple spare driver boards, and a complete set of spare CRTS... a whole rack ready to drop in. I am no wanting to damage anything, but I am in a position to be more bold in my desire to make improvements.

Is it possible to disco just one of the drivers... say the SVM on the red board, with the red drive turned way down to start? Or, do I need to commit to all of them? If the latter, I will bail on this idea.

Otherwise, I will sit on this some more and look at the board and the SM some more. Chances are, I will back down and leave it alone.

Which brings up the CR EE mod. I have the requisite tools to do this on a Pioneer, including the scope. The pioneer uses basically the same chip as the Mit in CR's paper, but the Pioneer's circuit is a little more complicated than the simple 2 pin filter circuit employed on the MIT. So, it looks like I need to write out the equations for the filter to figure out the value and placement of the pot in this case. It looks like it may need more than one variable cap. Still, it ain't rocket science.

If I were insane enough to head down this path, would you support me? Deal would be if I am successful, I will publish the circuit and results for everyone.

BTW, I pull this crap all the time. I am more than just a weekend warrior when it comes to tech... LOL I drive my wife nuts...basically.

Joe
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post #2754 of 2889
1/29/12 at 11:30am
Bob,

I've got a DVDO VP-30 attached to my 710. The test patterns are fantastic. One that I have not paid much mind to until now has a black screen, with a white horizontal bar that moves across the screen at a steady rate.

I was surprised to see that twice (changes direction), there is a reflection similar to what you seen from "car headlights turning a corner" as the bar passes midpoint in either direction.

The entire unit was covered in duvetyne very meticulously by the previous owner. When I mean meticulous... I mean there is no bare surface except the lenses and the small area of the IR receiver. Is this reflection caused by the lenses themselves? If so, any easy way to fix?

I can post a video if it's interesting. It was quite a surprise to me.

Joe
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post #2755 of 2889
1/29/12 at 11:52am
Yeah, internal reflections are a bane, and there in all CRT projected tech. I assume your optics a thoroughly clean, all 10 surfaces of them, plus mirror?

Since you can't control yourself around these things (man after my own heart!), I suggest you contemplate coating each of the internal lenses, like they do in the fine microscopes and telescopes. There are 4 lenses in each lens barrel, meaning 8 surfaces. We clean 2 on each barrel - the front and the back - but we never touch the internal ones, it's not necessary.

Yet none of them are coated. I saw an experiment many years ago at the Exploratorium in SF, where 10 little glass lenses were in the way of what you were trying to see. Each one could be put into or out of the light path.

2 sets, one set of 10 coated, one set uncoated. The differences were absolutely amazing. On the string of them that were uncoated, when all 10 were in the light path you couldn't see pretty much anything at the other end! On the string where all were coated, you could see just fine.

I once passed on a perfectly good high power set of binocs because of this, since I would be using them at concerts.

b
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post #2756 of 2889
1/29/12 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgruessing68 View Post

Bob,

Thanks for the quick reply. This is pretty much exactly how i expected you would answer. The warning is well understood. I was hoping you'd confirm the wires I was planning to disco, and you did.

The annoying problem I am trying to solve is that even with the SVM off and the sharpness register dialed way down, there are still artifacts around the edges of things in HD around areas of high contrast (content--not setting). I have not found an acceptable level of sharpness to detail in SM to eliminate this. I have my detail set to 120. What range do you normally find works for you for the sharpness register?

I noticed that some techs were indeed disconnecting SVM on other sets...like Toshibas... and the results were generally very good for true HD, and not as good for live content. It turns out that the artifical EE is quite beneficial in those cases. Since I am mainly interested in watching Bluerays and streaming HD, I am not as concerned about the resulting "softness" they seem to be talking about. Does that make sense?

I wasn't going to try this first on my beloved 710. I've got the 510, and a bunch of sets I fixed for my brother. One of those can be the guinea pig. There is one in particular that needs a complete cal. Worst case, I have a box full of multiple spare driver boards, and a complete set of spare CRTS... a whole rack ready to drop in. I am no wanting to damage anything, but I am in a position to be more bold in my desire to make improvements.

Is it possible to disco just one of the drivers... say the SVM on the red board, with the red drive turned way down to start? Or, do I need to commit to all of them? If the latter, I will bail on this idea.

Otherwise, I will sit on this some more and look at the board and the SM some more. Chances are, I will back down and leave it alone.

Which brings up the CR EE mod. I have the requisite tools to do this on a Pioneer, including the scope. The pioneer uses basically the same chip as the Mit in CR's paper, but the Pioneer's circuit is a little more complicated than the simple 2 pin filter circuit employed on the MIT. So, it looks like I need to write out the equations for the filter to figure out the value and placement of the pot in this case. It looks like it may need more than one variable cap. Still, it ain't rocket science.

If I were insane enough to head down this path, would you support me? Deal would be if I am successful, I will publish the circuit and results for everyone.

BTW, I pull this crap all the time. I am more than just a weekend warrior when it comes to tech... LOL I drive my wife nuts...basically.

Joe

Yes you can do just one color at a time. In fact that's the only way to fly when doing the CraigR mod.

BTW, if it's the same chip, the same 2 legs would be the ones you would want. You should not have to be reinventing the wheel here, it should be carbon copy work.

b
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post #2757 of 2889
1/29/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
Yes you can do just one color at a time. In fact that's the only way to fly when doing the CraigR mod.

BTW, if it's the same chip, the same 2 legs would be the ones you would want. You should not have to be reinventing the wheel here, it should be carbon copy work.

b
It is the same chip, TDA61020Q(N2), in terms of pin layout (1,3) and basics specs, but where Mits used the exact circuit recommended on the data sheet for the chip, Pioneer made a more elaborate filtering circuit. Check out page 83 of the SM - R CRT Drive.

You can see on the datasheet attached Fig 5 on p.8 on pins 1,3 ... same circuit Craig references. But if you look at the pioneer schematic...nope, not the same. It's still a RC filter circuit, just more complicated. A filter ladder active, multi-order... same caps, with lower resistance and added inductors... See what I mean? It looks like they tried to dial it in closer...maybe trying to get rid of that overshoot that CR was trying to tackle, without muddying up the waveform? So, the issue here is where is the right tap for adjustment? It's not as clear, without running the equation, I think. Or, am I missing something fundamental?

I guess the simple thing is to replace all three caps with variable ones... but that's a lot of extra work probably.

Joe

 

TDA6120Q_datasheet.pdf 120.734375k . file
LL
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post #2758 of 2889
1/29/12 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Yeah, internal reflections are a bane, and there in all CRT projected tech. I assume your optics a thoroughly clean, all 10 surfaces of them, plus mirror?

Since you can't control yourself around these things (man after my own heart!), I suggest you contemplate coating each of the internal lenses, like they do in the fine microscopes and telescopes. There are 4 lenses in each lens barrel, meaning 8 surfaces. We clean 2 on each barrel - the front and the back - but we never touch the internal ones, it's not necessary.

Yet none of them are coated. I saw an experiment many years ago at the Exploratorium in SF, where 10 little glass lenses were in the way of what you were trying to see. Each one could be put into or out of the light path.

2 sets, one set of 10 coated, one set uncoated. The differences were absolutely amazing. On the string of them that were uncoated, when all 10 were in the light path you couldn't see pretty much anything at the other end! On the string where all were coated, you could see just fine.

I once passed on a perfectly good high power set of binocs because of this, since I would be using them at concerts.

b

Yes... All 10 of the surfaces are quite clean... CR did in 2005, you personally did it again for the owner in 2008, and I did it again about 3 months ago. All 10. I am assuming taking the lenses apart to do the inner surfaces is not going to yield much additional change? It is a pain to take these apart. Did one last year.

Very interesting about the lens coating. Is that something I can do myself? If so, how do I learn how to do that properly? Otherwise, who does it? I'd hate to muck up the lenses in the pursuit of perfection. That would be ironic.

Thanks.

Joe
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post #2759 of 2889
1/29/12 at 7:45pm
Very. And yes, that's been done...

Don't worry about the internal lenses. They never get a blanketing of dust which is all we have to worry about. Individual particulates don't count, as everything is out of focus at that part of the light path. If the impediments don't rise to the definition of a blanketing of them, they won't impede the picture enough to matter.

The coating is not something I have ever seen done on these, nor heard about, I am the only one who I have ever heard mention it. Just know it would be the final last bit of improvement available re. internal reflections. You could put anti-reflective coating on the inside of the viewscreen as well, but before you do be sure that surface is flat and does not have the concentric etchings of the fresnel molded into it.

Does Craig do the deeper optics cleaning, that last 6 of the 10 total that need it?

b
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post #2760 of 2889
1/29/12 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgruessing68 View Post

It is the same chip, TDA61020Q(N2), in terms of pin layout (1,3) and basics specs, but where Mits used the exact circuit recommended on the data sheet for the chip, Pioneer made a more elaborate filtering circuit. Check out page 83 of the SM - R CRT Drive.

You can see on the datasheet attached Fig 5 on p.8 on pins 1,3 ... same circuit Craig references. But if you look at the pioneer schematic...nope, not the same. It's still a RC filter circuit, just more complicated. A filter ladder active, multi-order... same caps, with lower resistance and added inductors... See what I mean? It looks like they tried to dial it in closer...maybe trying to get rid of that overshoot that CR was trying to tackle, without muddying up the waveform? So, the issue here is where is the right tap for adjustment? It's not as clear, without running the equation, I think. Or, am I missing something fundamental?

I guess the simple thing is two replace all three caps with variable ones... but that's a lot of extra work probably.

Joe

Good Lord! Looks like they may have already maxed out its potential, no need for you to do anything. If they put that much design into it, chances are it's already great.

However, there are 3 guns, and on my Mit when I removed the caps and set them aside thinking they were all ID, turned out later when I looked them over closely, each color's had a different value. So I figure Mit must have already fine tuned the 3 by that model year, each to its best. Craig's was for a xxx13 series, mine was 2 years later, from the xx517 series. In the intervening time looks like Mit did some homework on that circuit, like Craig did.

So the other colors may have different values for everything in that circuit, you'll have to compare them to see.

Unfortunately I had already done the mod and maxed my set's potential out before I found all this out, so I've left the dang thing alone...



b
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