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The Official Kd-34xbr960 Thread - Page 255

post #7621 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking Beast View Post

Also theres a red shadow that appears off certain images. Maybe thats the red push you mentioned.
No... "red push" is the term used to describe what skin tone looks like, when it is redder rather normal skin tone looks like on a properly adjusted set (CRT or LCD). The flesh color is what tips you off that your color needs adjustment or not.

As often documented (and even mentioned in my spreadsheet, referenced in my previous post) there are four particular color-related settings in the 960's service menu that simply produce that unnatural look to skin, which needs to be "toned down" to make it look truly human-like.

Quote:
maybe its not possible for these tvs to be as sharp as i thought. I do remember my old 960 blowing away plasma.
It's analog, so it will have that uniquely "analog look" which is really distinctly different than a pixel-based display. How easy it is to see, or how bothersome it is, depends on what you're viewing. I would describe CRT's as "more film-like", which I prefer.

As far as "sharpness", again that's kind of an imprecise term. Actually it's usually recommended that you turn SHARPNESS down to zero/minimum in the user menu, as anything non-zero is actually a digitally added edge-enhancement. Some people prefer that, I do not. I prefer the "pure" look of a zero sharpness setting (as part of my whole PRO setup, which is what you should start from as it disables all factory pre-set bias settings which you see in MOVIE, VIVID, etc.)
post #7622 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber View Post

No... "red push" is the term used to describe what skin tone looks like, when it is redder rather normal skin tone looks like on a properly adjusted set (CRT or LCD). The flesh color is what tips you off that your color needs adjustment or not.
As often documented (and even mentioned in my spreadsheet, referenced in my previous post) there are four particular color-related settings in the 960's service menu that simply produce that unnatural look to skin, which needs to be "toned down" to make it look truly human-like.
It's analog, so it will have that uniquely "analog look" which is really distinctly different than a pixel-based display. How easy it is to see, or how bothersome it is, depends on what you're viewing. I would describe CRT's as "more film-like", which I prefer.
As far as "sharpness", again that's kind of an imprecise term. Actually it's usually recommended that you turn SHARPNESS down to zero/minimum in the user menu, as anything non-zero is actually a digitally added edge-enhancement. Some people prefer that, I do not. I prefer the "pure" look of a zero sharpness setting (as part of my whole PRO setup, which is what you should start from as it disables all factory pre-set bias settings which you see in MOVIE, VIVID, etc.)

Ok I thought you might have been referring to that. I noticed in monitor mode it fixes this, as far as I can see, however the colors get duller all around as well. So I prefer pro mode with the color maxed, brightness maxed and contrast maxed. Ive always run it like this for gaming. I wont be using for movies. The plasma handles blu rays great and many of the high quality newer games. Some of the newer games are not programmed as well and do not look as good on the plasma. The CRT really succeeds as the great equalizer among all content. The new tvs are just not competent enough for picture quality freaks such as myself who still play a wide range of games. From the earliest to the newest. Though the new gt50 plasma has extremely good black levels over my 2010 G20 model. The black levels are top notch. Reminding me ALOT of crt look. The dithering (image static noise) is much reduced as well. I dont even notice it all the time like I did with the G20. It depends on the areas in games or the quality of certain areas in the game it seems. I sit 4 feet from my tvs. Including the new 55 plasma so defects will show easily. The plasma has an issue with clayface or an oil painting look on the textures for ps3 games only, so for many games I would rather use the CRT despite the 20 inch size difference. Picture quality is supreme for me. The 360 doesnt have this issue because apparently it has a very good upscaler built into the system where the ps3 has a very poor one. Since my plasma doesnt upscale its an issue. CRT I dont know if they do, but everything always looks superior on them. Maybe its thier multi resolution handling.

I am working on a set up that utilises both the crt and the plasma. The plasma will slide down in front of the crt, the crt will move back and forth on a track. So I will be able to switch displays for any content and use the display that suits it best. I will also have splitters to split the video wires for both displays. The CRT is still my favorite display technology and is superior to anything ive seen yet. Overall. Maybe its the screen but theres a glossy look to the crt image that I love. The image quality, contrast and motion handling is understood.

I prefer CRT as well I just wish they were made with larger screens. The 34 inch is very immersive up close but it could have used 15 or 20 more inches to give me a fuller effect. Though i was extremely satisfied when used as my main display in the past for gaming. Size was the only thing I wanted more of with the tv really.

Yes sharpness I set to zero on both tvs. I dont like the extra grain or lines it seems to bring up. I will have to check on the red push and see if it can be minimized. It doesnt really bother me now at all because I am using it for gaming only. I prefer a very high contrast colorful image over realistic and accurate. For movies though I do like the thx settings on the new plasma better then my custom game settings. Those are horrible for movies. And some games I find perform better with thx on the plasma.

THanks again
Edited by Walking Beast - 9/30/12 at 9:09am
post #7623 of 8134
Indeed to backing off sharpness. Some 'noise' becomes more evident due to sharpness to the best of my knowledge. I especially see an improvement with sharpness backed off when using a VCR.
post #7624 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking Beast View Post

I prefer CRT as well I just wish they were made with larger screens. The 34 inch is very immersive up close but it could have used 15 or 20 more inches to give me a fuller effect. Though i was extremely satisfied when used as my main display in the past for gaming. Size was the only thing I wanted more of with the tv really.
They had effectively reached the physical maximum of flat-screen CRT tube manufacture with that 34". Anything larger in a flat-screen and they either (a) couldn't have physically produced it, or (b) it would have risked IMPLOSION because of structural stresses.

The largest CRT HDTV that I believe was ever made was the 38" RCA 16x9, which was one of the sets I considered back in 2004 when my Sampo SME-34WHD5 picture tube died (and they'd stop selling them in this country). But the 38" 16x9 RCA tube was "cheated" in its design in order to fight off air pressure against the internal vacuum, as it had a curved front, not a flat-screen design like the 34" Sony 960 SFP tube. The two pictures simply did not look the same, with the 34" Sony flat-screen being the absolute obvious winner.
post #7625 of 8134
There is the 40" hidef sony which looks quite good, though not to the 960 standards.

I think there were a number of exotic crts at exotic prices as well.
post #7626 of 8134
ThanX all. Its good to see others who have stuck with this tech and still love it as I do, despite my lack of technical knowledge, I know what looks good to my eye. Even with my 55 gt plasma as my main display at the moment, I stil find the CRT to be an amazing piece of technology and that machine brought me hundreds of great hours gaming. The immersion was like nothing else for me. I need to get it set up at eye level and do some more tweaking and then think that feeling will come back again.

Right now its on the floor in the other room and i am sitting above it in my office chair. So its not the same looking down on it, but again Im feeling the magic with the display again.

I was unable to enjoy modern flat screens after this set. The GT plasma is finally closing that gap for me but the crt is an incredible display and one that I plan to have in my set up for as long as it lasts. Aside from the superior image quality of any tv made, it has the ability to run multiple resolutions as if it was designed for each one. It compliments the plasma perfectly, for some of the games that do not look good on the plasma.

Yes I dont like high sharpness. Too much grain from what I can see.
post #7627 of 8134
Very interesting about the larger displays. I was tempted to try a aconda by lowe recently since it was 38 inches. However I saw it was missing alot of inputs and also the curved screen was a deal killer for me. Aside from that I had my doubts that it could match the PQ of the sony. Four inches is not enough to risk it for me. These things are not easy to test and return.

I know there was a 40 inch 4:3 HD CRT by sony. I dont like black bars however so I didnt want to go that route. It would be great for the old games that run in 4:3, however I have a 55 that handles those incredibly well and in widescreen. The stretching on the old games is not really noticable. Im talking 8 and 16 bit games. The black contrast on the new plasma looks incredible with all the old games. I am playing these old games through my pc on emulation with graphics filters to be clear. Using a sega saturn controller.

My only issue with the xbr960 was the lack of size. I almost went with the 970 but then did my research and realised that the 960 was the one I actually owned, and remembered actually returning the 970 before it shipped out due to reading that the 960 has the fine pinch grill. Knowing me i would likely notice some difference at my 4 foot distance.

The geometry and overscan are definite issues too, but on my first set I didnt notice much of it. Only really around some of the edges. I originally purchased a 36 inch 4:3 HD tv by sony. In preparation for the upcoming (then) next gen HD consoles. Then I realised that true HD is shown in widescreen only. So I was left playing them on 28 inches of screen space with black bars which meant it was time to get the 34 wide screen, which I would have gotten had I known.
post #7628 of 8134
BTW on red push, at least on my Panny 34" WS HD, I have that issue on s-video, composite, and RF but not on component (no DVI or HDMI inputs). Wonder if ya'll see the same thing on the 960? (+HDMI)
post #7629 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking Beast 
I have a cheap ps2 component cable. Would that be good enough? Or should I get something higher quality and intended for ps3.
For short cable runs if it already works a new set of cables is unlikely to make much difference unless the current cables are the cheapest and nastiest things out there.
Quote:
I got mine used. The guy said it only has 6 hours use. I thought maybe from sitting around unused it degraded. Or maybe it was damaged. But it seems this is the norm for these tvs. I guess I got lucky with my first one. I only noticed these issues around some of the edges. Some blur and distortion. This one has it to varying degrees in all parts of the picture it seems. Also theres a red shadow that appears off certain images. Maybe thats the red push you mentioned.
I think in the service menu there may be a string of numbers at the top right that are in hexadecimal and converting them would show the number of hours the TV has operated for.

I wouldn't turn the brightness up all the way, you'll find it severely washes out quickly past the mid line.

By default these TVs distort parts of the colour spectrum to make them more vivid. It gives a red sheen over the picture that isn't noticeable until it's gone. The RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB, 2170P-4 settings look like they're global for the 960, although there is mention of a "special axis" in the service menu which might cover a specific picture mode. 14-15-6-4 respectively are what I thought were best.
post #7630 of 8134
I'd love to know if the service menu held the information on the operating time of the TV, as the previous post indicated this might be possible. Does anyone know if this is actually so?
post #7631 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by homerging View Post

By default these TVs distort parts of the colour spectrum to make them more vivid.

Yeah I read somewhere, maybe in a CNET review, that mfgers purposely set them like that to make the color stand out in their sets in the showroom.
post #7632 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydage View Post

Yeah I read somewhere, maybe in a CNET review, that mfgers purposely set them like that to make the color stand out in their sets in the showroom.
This is "VIVID" (sometimes called "torch mode"), which is simply a preset to allow the set to look better in the retail store environment where fluorescent lights or broad daylight might normally make the sets look washed out. VIVID counteracts that and therefore the picture looks more intense and attractive even in bright light. More color saturation, more brightness and contrast, etc.

But it's just a preset. No serious 960 owner runs VIVID at home, in a dark viewing environment. That's why first going to PRO is how all of the "tweak threads" start off, because PRO is simply the ABSENCE OF ANY FACTORY BIAS on the various controls. Everything is "flat", which is why initially PRO looks so very much different, and initially unappealing.

But it's from this initial PRO "flat" starting point that you then begin to adjust (in that darkened viewing environment) with proper reference patterns, until you're looking at "stunning perfection" with gorgeous color. You won't be "flat" any longer, but you also won't be at VIVID extremes.
post #7633 of 8134
I have a question about adjusting the screen. The left side of the picture is cut off a bit. Happens on all devices (Tivo, Apple TV, etc.) For example, this is the way the Apple TV menu should look (and how it does look when hooked up to my LCD tv):



On my Sony, though, the left side of the screen starts right up against the left-most boxes, actually cutting part of them off (including cutting off the first part of the "R" in the word "Rented" at the top...)

I've gone into the service menu and tried adjusting HPOS and HSIZ (both of which are in CXA2170D-2) to no avail. HPOS moves the entire picture left or right, but doesn't reveal the cut off part on the left. Everything, cut off and all, just shifts to the right. HSIZ stretches the existing picture in or out, but also doesn't reveal the part that's being cut off.

I'm sure there's a setting in there somewhere to shift the actual content over to the right, revealing the part that's currently cut off, but I don't know what that would be.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.
post #7634 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

I have a question about adjusting the screen. The left side of the picture is cut off a bit. Happens on all devices (Tivo, Apple TV, etc.)

On my Sony, though, the left side of the screen starts right up against the left-most boxes, actually cutting part of them off (including cutting off the first part of the "R" in the word "Rented" at the top...)

I've gone into the service menu and tried adjusting HPOS and HSIZ (both of which are in CXA2170D-2) to no avail. HPOS moves the entire picture left or right, but doesn't reveal the cut off part on the left. Everything, cut off and all, just shifts to the right. HSIZ stretches the existing picture in or out, but also doesn't reveal the part that's being cut off.
I'm sure there's a setting in there somewhere to shift the actual content over to the right, revealing the part that's currently cut off, but I don't know what that would be.
Any suggestions?
The real discussion on "tweaks" can be found in the main thread on "Sony Service Codes". Of course that's got about 3000 posts starting back in 2005. So it will take a little searching and reading to find what you want.

But here is a quote from one of my own posts in that thread, on the subject of your question... namely how to adjust the picture so that it has the correct height and width, as well as being centered properly on the screen.

The key is that there are TWO sets of controls, much like you have in Photoshop.
  • You adjust the "possible maximum image size", both horizontally and vertically, by increasing the "canvas size" (which is like the background on top of which the actual image is then presented) to fill the screen. This uses VPOS and VSIZ in 2170D-1, and HPOS and HSIZ in 2170D-2.
  • Then you play with the "actual image size" presented on top of the "canvas". This uses VDHP, VDHS, VDVE and VDVS in the MID3 group.

====================================================================

Assuming you're into the service menu (and are familiar with how it is entered, used, saved, and exited), the primary recipe approach i kd-34xbr960.zip 33k .zip file s fundamentally twofold: (1) use the VPOS and VSIZ items in the 2170D-1 group, and the HPOS and HSIZ items in the 2170D-2 service menu group, to adjust the "background raster" (aka "canvas") in both horizontal and vertical directions. Then (2) in the MID3 group you use 0 (VDHP horizontal position), 1 (VDHS horizontal size), 2 (VDVE vertical position) and 3 (VDVS vertical size) to manipulate the 1080i/720p "image" on top of the "background" (i.e. within the "background raster").

2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are used to adjust the "canvas" to reach to the physical edges of the screen, so that the image then placed on top of it can utilize all available screen real estate. MID3 is used for the 1080i and 720p image size and placement adjustments, within the background raster area set by 2170D-1 and 2170D-2. You position and size the image over the background so that it is fully visible and reaches to the extreme edges of the background for 0% overscan. Then you enlarge it just a bit more in all four directions (using the test pattern on your screen as the guide) to "crop" out the video noise which you may see at 0% overscan, losing perhaps 1-2% of the image in this final "overscan" adjustment.

As you get into each part of the adjustments, clicking up or down one unit at a time so that you see the precise results of your tweak, you focus on getting the extreme outer edge of the test pattern rectangle visible on your screen. When you're done (at 0% overscan), the complete rectangle should be totally visible on all four sides. No wasted screen, and nothing eliminated (at 0% overscan).

There is an assumption that you have a proper 16:9 overscan test pattern on your screen, the best of which can be found attached to this post which if you can connect your PC to your HDTV is ideal. If you have a video card like ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, it has a second DVI head and you can connect it to your Sony with a DVI-to-HDMI cable setup. Or, you can get the ATI DVI-to-component adapter and connect the second head to your Sony with component video cables.

Otherwise, you can use Avia or DVE DVD's to display geometry and overscan test patterns, though at 480p. Using DVE, you can go to Title 12 (Display Setup Patterns) and then Chapter 17 (1:33 overscan pattern), with the latter "spread" to 16:9 by the MODE button on your remote.

"Blow-by-blow" as well as instructions for service menu entry, exit and use, can be found in this post .

A bit more editorializing can be found in this post

Hope this helps.

============================================================
post #7635 of 8134
Exactly what I was looking for, thanks. And sorry about posting in the wrong thread - didn't see the other one.
post #7636 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking Beast View Post

Thanks alot. Its very interesting to see that you got one from the factory with blur and bowing, etc. I got mine used. The guy said it only has 6 hours use. I thought maybe from sitting around unused it degraded. Or maybe it was damaged. But it seems this is the norm for these tvs. I guess I got lucky with my first one. I only noticed these issues around some of the edges. Some blur and distortion. This one has it to varying degrees in all parts of the picture it seems. Also theres a red shadow that appears off certain images. Maybe thats the red push you mentioned.
maybe its not possible for these tvs to be as sharp as i thought. I do remember my old 960 blowing away plasma. The new gt panasonic plasma is quite good though. It just doesnt handle all content consistantly like a crt.
Thanks again for the help. I will check your sheet. Im in the process now of trying to learn before I mess around. Also my crt is currently on the floor and im looking down at it. I havent seen it at eye level yet. I need a table.

Hi,

When I got my 960 back in August of 2005 eventually I became aware that the overscan and geometry were among many user settings that were poorly adjusted at the factory. I too used the spreadsheets printed here with the suggested settings, writing down the original factory settings I had as well. It took a few times to finally get it to what i felt was correct, since changing one could easily effect another.

At the time I had the old HD test patterns from the old INHD which was vital. Suggest before making any tweaks to get one of the HD set up discs to help - they are better than the built in test patterns in the service menu which one has to be careful with - it took me forever until figuring out how to get them off screen (and keep the volume at zero). In fact, the the geometry pattern was completely useless.

Good luck.
post #7637 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber View Post

No... "red push" is the term used to describe what skin tone looks like, when it is redder rather normal skin tone looks like on a properly adjusted set (CRT or LCD). The flesh color is what tips you off that your color needs adjustment or not.
As often documented (and even mentioned in my spreadsheet, referenced in my previous post) there are four particular color-related settings in the 960's service menu that simply produce that unnatural look to skin, which needs to be "toned down" to make it look truly human-like.
It's analog, so it will have that uniquely "analog look" which is really distinctly different than a pixel-based display. How easy it is to see, or how bothersome it is, depends on what you're viewing. I would describe CRT's as "more film-like", which I prefer.
As far as "sharpness", again that's kind of an imprecise term. Actually it's usually recommended that you turn SHARPNESS down to zero/minimum in the user menu, as anything non-zero is actually a digitally added edge-enhancement. Some people prefer that, I do not. I prefer the "pure" look of a zero sharpness setting (as part of my whole PRO setup, which is what you should start from as it disables all factory pre-set bias settings which you see in MOVIE, VIVID, etc.)

Hi DSperber,

Been a long time since we last spoke.

I agree with you that the CRT picture looks different than the flat screens but to me it's less a film like and more of a life-like type picture. On live video it appears as if one is looking through a window - very lifelike and natural - compared to LCD (which I also own) which I find gives an image as if it is on pastel screen. There is also a depth to the picture instead of every object one top of each other.

My only regret is like with so many, the coating has come off in various places on the screen. It is, fortunately, completely un-noticible when lights are on behind the set and not in front of it and eventually I have gotten used to it. When off, it is most apparent but then - who should get upset about a blank screen.

Always suggest unplugging the set for about five minutes once a month in order for the degausser to fully do it's job to retain the CRT's pristine picture quality.
post #7638 of 8134
Would I be better suited seeking out a 960 or 970 model specifically for modern games? I have an Xbox 360/PS3 and will get the Wii U and it seems to me that the lower resolution of the 34XBR970 would closely match the 720p games on the market now. So I've been weighing in my head to go with the super fine pitch or will the 34XBR970's closer to native 720p resolution be in fact sharper? I want a clean, sharp image with 0 lag. I also assume the 970 has the same deep blacks yes?

Of course we're on the brink of next gen consoles so I imagine the 960's super fine pitch will strengthen with the higher resolution of tomorrow's games. But I've read more than once speculation of next gen will be about 720p @ 60 frames per second so again it looks like I may need to find a CRT with near 720p resolution. I just wish I could test a 960 with my games. The other thing I heard is that the 960 is darker than the 970 due to the super fine pitch. Hmm I'm not sure I'd like this since I don't want crushed blacks in my games. I turn to your advise now...
post #7639 of 8134
No idea on games, but the 970 has nothing in common with the 960 but some software.
It's just an HS sony.
post #7640 of 8134
And I wonder if the newer version would have better video game support > might compare the manuals.
post #7641 of 8134
I have a HS tube and a SFP tube, and I can't tell any difference in quality between the two when playing Xbox games. I would get the SFP though for real 1080p stuff just because it is definitely superior for that.
post #7642 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by salty View Post

I have a HS tube and a SFP tube, and I can't tell any difference in quality between the two when playing Xbox games. I would get the SFP though for real 1080p stuff just because it is definitely superior for that.
Of course the 960 has no support for true native 1080p. But high-quality BluRay movies that COULD display at 1080p still look stunning when delivered as 1080i from player to the 960.
post #7643 of 8134
Yes I thought about that. Blu-rays played back at 1080i would still look better on the super fine pitch then the majority of plasmas today.. I would assume. You can't beat the pixel pitch of 34" and the blacks would be incredible. But I can't but to think that the dimmer picture of the 960 would makes games not as good as an HS model. You say the XBR970 is just a re-branded HS correct? But I still question whether or not the super fine pitch actually benefits with today's games being as their only 720p. Wouldn't there be more unnecessary scaling involved?
post #7644 of 8134
I am not sure if there would be any extra scaling between the two, but it stands to reason that 720p input would likely look the same on both. As far as the SFP tube being too dim for gaming, I have not found that to be an problem issue either. I just bump up the contrast/brightness on one of the presets for gaming and it looks great to me. Just my 2 cents
post #7645 of 8134
Super fine pitch = 1440X1080i Hi-Scan = 850?X1080i

By virtue of that it seems that 720p games (1280X720) would have to scale more on the XBR960 if the CRT is unable to multisync. I'm not saying games won't look sweet on it but they could potentially look better on a Hi-Scan model. Can someone who tested both confirm this?
post #7646 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by PathofNeo View Post

But I can't but to think that the dimmer picture of the 960 would makes games not as good as an HS model.

The 960N doesn't have the anti-reflective coating of the 960 so I've heard it's brighter. Then there's those adventuresome souls that have removed the coating...
post #7647 of 8134
That's true but it's next to impossible finding a 960N. I think I may have come across one if the past 5 years on craigslist.
post #7648 of 8134
Throw back thread!!! Good to see its still around a little. I'm looking for info on fixing the faulty IC/protection chips. I'm going to dig around, but if anyone has some info to point to, it's more than welcome! Mine started the blinking lights at start up, and wont start sometimes. It starts up again if it sits for a few couple days.

Thanks,
G
post #7649 of 8134
If anyone in the Los Angeles/So-Cal area is interested in one of these. I am putting mine up for sale. $150. PM me.
post #7650 of 8134
Quote:
Originally Posted by gprro1 View Post

Throw back thread!!! Good to see its still around a little. I'm looking for info on fixing the faulty IC/protection chips. I'm going to dig around, but if anyone has some info to point to, it's more than welcome! Mine started the blinking lights at start up, and wont start sometimes. It starts up again if it sits for a few couple days.

Thanks,
G
Go here
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1366567/sony-trinitron-wega-rlod-twenty-dollar-repair-guide/
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