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Latest HiDef DVD News - Page 628  

post #18811 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by toomuchtalk
dude, come again..?? T-cells?

T Virus? :D
post #18812 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escamillo
I thought the DOJ suit against Microsoft was bogus and most of it was thrown out by the appeals court so you don't know what a Gore DOJ would've done at that point. Regardless, Bush is the worst president in my memory, IMO (his father was soooo much better, as were Reagan and Clinton). There are far more important issues than that DOJ case, HD discs, HTPCs, and PS3s, issues for which Bush sucks. :mad:
Ack... Please check the politics at the door, this thread goes wildly OT enough as it is. :)

b2b
post #18813 of 18952
Paul Sweeting of Video Business waxes nastalgic about the war, and what 2006 will bring. Mainly a rehash of what both sides have been hammering on here.

Just the beginning
post #18814 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez
Ack... Please check the politics at the door, this thread goes wildly OT enough as it is. :)
I thought we basically talk about politics here ...

Well (tech) politics ...
post #18815 of 18952
Quote:
MS is the only company among the ones being discussed here which is consistently running afoul of regulators world over -- US, EU, South Korea, etc. Can they all be wrong and MS is just a poor misunderstood giant, not a bully, not a sabateur?
Just to keep things in perspective ...

RIAA Bullies Witnesses Into Perjury

Quote:
A Michigan couple is counter-suing the RIAA after they learned that the RIAA had bullied their witnesses into lying. The story revolves around a 15-year-old girl who, when deposed, told how RIAA lawyers told her that she had to commit perjury just so they could win their case. From the article: 'Q - Did [the RIAA lawyer] tell you why he needed you to stick with your original false story? A - Because he said he didn't have a case unless I did. Q - So, he told you that he didn't have a case unless you stuck with the original false story?
post #18816 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McMahon
I beg to differ. I was part of Microsoft's team in the Java wars. I spent endless months in the DVB in Geneva and at IBC in Amsterdam and other venues in London. MS didn't "cobble together" anything - it was part of a long term corporate antibody effort. It was like swarms of killer T-cells. The whole thing about iHD is derived from a long heritage starting with WebTV. And then MSTV. And MHP-Lite. And C#. Etc.
I agree there have been a long string of MS attempts to counter Java in the television space, most of which would greatly advantage the use of WinCE, .NET, or other Microsoft proprietary technologies. iHD as a solution for HD-DVD, however, was hatched after Flash was no longer under consideration for HD-DVD and when it appeared Java was starting to gain some momentum. iHD undoubtedly builds upon some of the earlier (mostly failed) technologies, but was nowhere to be seen until Flash left the room.

-Talk
post #18817 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
How long would QA take (or are you suggesting it should be released without any QA ?).

BTW, let me ask you this. How much experience do you have implementing stuff like this ... ?
Sorry, I'm not a development manager, so I can't speak authoritatively to how long QA should take relative to initial development, etc. I do encounter many different companies doing MHP and BD-J implementations and can tell you that a working implementation can certainly be achieved in a month. From scratch, cleanroom, with engineers with no Java experience? Of course not, but that's a nonsensical set of artificially-engineered conditions which wouldn't happen in the real world. If you need it fast you pay more for a third-party implementation, if you want it cheap you work with the employees you have but recognize it'll take longer.
Quote:
This is a ridiculous assertion. Why would a company trying to implement BD-J do it with programmers with no Java experience? That's like getting a quote for a new roof from a company which has never done roofing, but will be happy to go get training as soon as I sign the contract. It also ignores the fact that most companies choose to go to a third-party for their MHP / BD-J implementations, not to do them themselves.
Quote:
Not really. If you want something done in a month ... you need to get it done by people you have today. Can't start interviewing ...
No, then you get a third-party implementation, or you contract for experienced workers. If Microsoft decided they needed to ship a BD-J implementation in Vista they'd almost certainly do a deal for a third-party implementation, not build it themselves.
post #18818 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
Sorry, I'm not a development manager, so I can't speak authoritatively to how long QA should take relative to initial development, etc.
I can see that ...

Quote:
I do encounter many different companies doing MHP and BD-J implementations and can tell you that a working implementation can certainly be achieved in a month.
If you don't do QA, how do you know its working ?

Quote:
From scratch, cleanroom, with engineers with no Java experience? Of course not, but that's a nonsensical set of artificially-engineered conditions which wouldn't happen in the real world.
Exactly. Thats why MS won't do it ... because thats how they would have to implement it ... yeh, they can get a few Java knowing contractors ... won't greatly affect the schedule. How fast can you get 20 java knowing contractors ? Also you have completely ignored design time.

What takes a lot of time is testing and fixing bugs. Anyone can hack some code together to get anything working fast in very basic scenarios.

Looks like I know more about marketing than you know about software engineering.

Quote:
If you need it fast you pay more for a third-party implementation, if you want it cheap you work with the employees you have but recognize it'll take longer.
I know you keep pushing for a 3rd party implementation ... but we are talking about your own implemenation. We are not talking about costly or cheap.
post #18819 of 18952
Well nataraj, you can dispute his development times all you want, but that just strengthens his assertion that MS should go with a 3rd party implementation. That they may not be willing to make that choice is their problem.
post #18820 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant
Well nataraj, you can dispute his development times all you want, but that just strengthens his assertion that MS should go with a 3rd party implementation. That they may not be willing to make that choice is their problem.
yup, reasonable deduction leads to this conclusion.

anyone here work for a Corp with Java expertise? heres a chance to make some money

Nataraj: you said MS most prob has a backup plan, right? Then, that wud mean a BD-J implementation wud b ready already. Cant have it both ways.. :eek:

If no BD-J prepared and no plan to buy a 3rd party implementation, then it comes back to my pt of MS being complacent / short-sighted.
post #18821 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant
Well nataraj, you can dispute his development times all you want, but that just strengthens his assertion that MS should go with a 3rd party implementation. That they may not be willing to make that choice is their problem.
What do you mean "MS shoud go with a 3rd party implementation"? Why does MS have to supply an implementation at all? Can not users and/or OEMs install the 3rd party implentation on their own if they so wish? Hell, can't BR discs themselves install a player implementing BD-J if such a player is not on the system (like DVDs a few years ago supplied their own PC DVD player software that would be installed when the disc was put into a PC)? Someone please explain why MS must do this (at their own cost, either by implementing it themselves or paying for a 3rd party implementation).

Microsoft doesn't even bundle a JVM, so how would they bundle BD-J in the first place, since it relies on a JVM? OEMs bundle JVMs with their PCs, not Microsoft. So it seems natural that OEMs bundle BD-J rather than Microsoft.

Microsoft doesn't even bundle a DVD player today (except for MCE), since WMP can't play DVD (or any MPEG2 file) without the user or OEM paying $10 to a third party for an MPEG2 codec (so MS avoids the paying the MPEG2 license), yet PCs are able to play DVDs out of the box because the OEM supplies the MPEG2 codec (and sometimes their own players, like Dell's "Media Experience" player (if they're still shipping that monstrosity)). Similarly, the OEM can supply BR player software. (As a sidenote, what's the deal with Apple? They make you pay $10 for an MPEG2 codec for their QuickTime player, which I assume pays for the MPEG2 license fee, yet they supply a DVD player in their OS, so the OS should already have a MPEG2 codec somewhere. Why can't the Quicktime player use the same MPEG2 codec that the DVD player uses? But I digress. :p)

As far as I can see, MS isn't blocking BD-J or any aspect of BR. The secure media data paths in Vista are neutral wrt optical disc format. Vista doesn't care whether the bits come from an optical disc or from the hard drive. That should be enough for BR. Let 3rd parties do the rest (if MS chooses not to).

BR proponents claim that BR is as HTPC friendly as HD-DVD. And Sony's PC division is releasing MCE machines (laptops, desktops, and "living room" systems) and I'm sure that division would make sure that future Sony MCE machines would be BR-enabled. So, Sony (assuming they are committed to their PC division shipping MCE systems in the future) will certainly provide their own BR software for their HTPCs if necessary; other OEMs can do the same.

(I'm still not conviced that BDA is commited to HTPCs at all; maybe that's why people want MS to bundle BR software because deep down they know that the BR companies themselves can't be relied on to supply such.)

If I am wrong that the BR companies can supply BR software themselves rather than the OS, please enlighten me.
post #18822 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeZ1998
But again, if HD content can be recorded OTA / cable / satellite, why bother with HD content protection mechanisms ?
Well for the same reasons they did so with VHS and DVD. Also recording will be done with Firewire and not with analog component video if that is what you are getting at.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel
Or maybe neither is "lying". Two months is not nuthin' in this changing landscape. Perhaps the truth has changed.
Well that would have to be a pretty quick change in the landscape for Amir saying that Windows Vista would have no HD-DVD royalties to suddenly having that be the case. My bet though is that HP is playing with words since I have a hunch that even Microsoft would not have HD-DVD royalties in Windows Vista.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JBlacklow
The Ars Technica piece in particular makes some real good points from a presumably more detached stance than almost all of us.
That is a pretty balanced article and I agree with them that a good amount should hopefully be revealed at CES.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Escamillo
BR proponents claim that BR is as HTPC friendly as HD-DVD.
Can anyone offer proof though for why Blu-ray is supposedly not HTPC friendly? I specifically mean in the way of cold hard facts and not opinions, guesses, or rumors.
post #18823 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escamillo
What do you mean "MS shoud go with a 3rd party implementation"? Why does MS have to supply an implementation at all? (...) Someone please explain why MS must do this (at their own cost, either by implementing it themselves or paying for a 3rd party implementation).
Re-read the context. Someone asked how long it would theoretically take if MSFT wanted to have BD-J inside Vista. Talkstr8t answered "1 month", Nataraj questioned this, cue long, theoretical disussion. I think it's very clear that MSFT will not implement BD-J so that third parties will have to do it. And as toomuchtalk (I think) showed with various links, lots of third parties are already working on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escamillo
As far as I can see, MS isn't blocking BD-J or any aspect of BR. The secure media data paths in Vista are neutral wrt optical disc format. Vista doesn't care whether the bits come from an optical disc or from the hard drive. That should be enough for BR.
Do you work in Vista development? It woud be nice to know for sure that there'll be no hidden roadblocks making that third party BR implementation harder than necessary. Not that MSFT would ever do a thing like that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escamillo
I'm still not conviced that BDA is commited to HTPCs at all; maybe that's why people want MS to bundle BR software because deep down they know that the BR companies themselves can't be relied on to supply such.
Again, "people" do not want MS to bundle BR software, it was just a theoretical discussion about something we all know won't happen. As to BR's general HTPC friendliness, there is zero evidence you won't be able to do everything you can do with HD-DVD with BR as well. Other than the several third parties working on BR software players already, you said yourself that Sony would have to be super stupid to push BR, to push media center PCs – and not have the two work together.
post #18824 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Well that would have to be a pretty quick change in the landscape for Amir saying that Windows Vista would have no HD-DVD royalties to suddenly having that be the case. My bet though is that HP is playing with words since I have a hunch that even Microsoft would not have HD-DVD royalties in Windows Vista.
Um...I think you have that backwards. Amir had said the royalties for HD-DVD would be paid by the OEM (and of course passed on to the consumer) when the drive is bundled with the PC. Now HP is saying (not really, but paraphrased here) that "Microsoft's forthcoming Vista version of Windows will include HD-DVD support for free". I don't know if they are "playing with words" as you put it, were misquoted, or the truth changed.

Perhaps it is this - Microsoft will pick up the royalties when computer manufacturers bundle the drive. Maybe that is what the "coupon" is all about. The OEM counts the drives shipped submits to MS and gets a rebate. Pure conjecture -> MS has agreements cross licensing w/Toshiba for reduced royalties, so maybe the overall cost is lessened by MS picking up the royalties over each OEM doing their own deal seperately. Who knows?
post #18825 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal_Sunshine
Re-read the context. Someone asked how long it would theoretically take if MSFT wanted to have BD-J inside Vista. Talkstr8t answered "1 month", Nataraj questioned this, cue long, theoretical disussion. I think it's very clear that MSFT will not implement BD-J so that third parties will have to do it. And as toomuchtalk (I think) showed with various links, lots of third parties are already working on it.



Do you work in Vista development? It woud be nice to know for sure that there'll be no hidden roadblocks making that third party BR implementation harder than necessary. Not that MSFT would ever do a thing like that...



Again, "people" do not want MS to bundle BR software, it was just a theoretical discussion about something we all know won't happen. As to BR's general HTPC friendliness, there is zero evidence you won't be able to do everything you can do with HD-DVD with BR as well. Other than the several third parties working on BR software players already, you said yourself that Sony would have to be super stupid to push BR, to push media center PCs – and not have the two work together.
OK, so this is a theoretical discussion about something that won't happen? I'm not sure why there were so many posts regarding it. But any way, the conjecture that somebody is putting roadblocks in front of BR's use on HTPCs can be dropped then, an I correct? Microsoft's stance on BD-J is completely irrelevant, right?

So, we can assume HD-DVD is dead and BR is alive and well and this thread can return to being about "The Latest HiDef DVD News" rather than BR vs HD-DVD. :D

But if it turns out that BR is less PC friendly than HD-DVD would've been, then I'm going to hold you personally responsible!!! :eek: :D :p
post #18826 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
How much do you think an Intel macmini would cost on the street ? I can get a G4 one now for $500 from Frys.
I don't really have an idea on this but I think they would like to keep it as cheap as possible. They might want to introduce a media oriented Macmini for around $799 (just speculation).

Doug
post #18827 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escamillo
OK, so this is a theoretical discussion about something that won't happen? I'm not sure why there were so many posts regarding it. But any way, the conjecture that somebody is putting roadblocks in front of BR's use on HTPCs can be dropped then, an I correct? Microsoft's stance on BD-J is completely irrelevant, right?
As long as Vista is not released, we won't know for sure, but I would certainly think and hope so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escamillo
So, we can assume HD-DVD is dead and BR is alive and well and this thread can return to being about "The Latest HiDef DVD News" rather than BR vs HD-DVD. :D
What a nice New Year's Resolution for all of us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escamillo
But if it turns out that BR is less PC friendly than HD-DVD would've been, then I'm going to hold you personally responsible!!! :eek: :D :p
[silently leaves the country...] ;)
post #18828 of 18952
I predict there will be no exciting new developments until next year.

Happy New Year everybody!

- Tom
post #18829 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry
I predict there will be no exciting new developments until next year.

Happy New Year everybody!

- Tom
You bet, this BUD'S for you............. :D
post #18830 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry
I predict there will be no exciting new developments until next year.

Happy New Year everybody!
Agreed. CES is going to be where the rubber meets the road. Wasn't that an ad back in the '60s?

Snow up here; I have New England's finest 2-1/2 lb lobsters in the frig - a little angel hair & pesto and me & the HT babe are good to go. Biggest worry is choice of DVD/HD DVR/OTA...HNY, Tom.
post #18831 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
If you don't do QA, how do you know its working ?
Do you know anything about software engineering? You asked how long to build an implementation, not how long to have one ready to ship. How could I possibly know what sort of integration requirements Microsoft has around Vista, or what sort of security reviews are required (if any, considering Microsoft's track record with security).

Quote:
yeh, they can get a few Java knowing contractors ... won't greatly affect the schedule. How fast can you get 20 java knowing contractors ?
Are Microsoft employees completely separated from reality?!? There are 4.5M Java developers. I guarantee Microsoft can call your various contracting firms and have 20 Java developers on-site within 36 hours.

Quote:
Looks like I know more about marketing than you know about software engineering.
Not based on what you've shown here. Incidentally, I have plenty of advanced coursework in computer science and in high school I wrote a video rental program which ran on the Atari 800 and was used in video stores from the midwest to Florida, so I do know a bit about software engineering.

Quote:
I know you keep pushing for a 3rd party implementation ... but we are talking about your own implemenation.
I assume you mean "our own" (as in Microsoft's), not "your own". Microsoft demonstrated a third-party OCAP implementation (Osmosys) running with MSTV a few years ago in a deceitful attempt to convince the cable operators they had some intention of supporting cable standards, so there's no reason to assume they wouldn't go third-party for BD-J.

However, as others have posted, there's no reason for Microsoft to implement BD-J; I'd rather they didn't. Remember Microsoft's original Java implementation? Just an attempt (which happily cost you $2B) to kill Java. I imagine you'd be happy to pay $2B more to make BD-J, MHP, and OCAP go away. I have no doubt third parties will do a far better job implementing BD-ROM playback software.
post #18832 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
I agree there have been a long string of MS attempts to counter Java in the television space, most of which would greatly advantage the use of WinCE, .NET, or other Microsoft proprietary technologies. iHD as a solution for HD-DVD, however, was hatched after Flash was no longer under consideration for HD-DVD and when it appeared Java was starting to gain some momentum. iHD undoubtedly builds upon some of the earlier (mostly failed) technologies, but was nowhere to be seen until Flash left the room.

-Talk
Well, the overlap with ECMAscript, HTML etc is too much of a coincidence...
post #18833 of 18952
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight1
Your initial statement of failing players caught me off guard since HD-DVD has been billed as using DVD as a "tried and true" foundation. How can Toshiba not have working players????

I just found it quite amusing that we could have HD-DVD discs with no players (based on your claim) versus BD players with no disc replication ability. The saying of two monkeys, a football, and an unnatural act comes to mind ;)

I just hope CES (just 10 more days!!) clears up some of the FUD being spread instead of propagating it.
Okay, now I’m beginning to regret that I responded to your inquiries in any respect, because your post seems to be suggesting that I am one of those trying to spread FUD here, which is categorically untrue and not appreciated. To the contrary, I have tried to debunk the FUD (particularly by industry members here), because I deem it so counterproductive to the purpose of this thread. Obviously, I can't be responsible for someone else’s inability to believe that Toshiba’s HD-DVD players were seriously flawed.

CES is going to clear up the FUD? C'mon now. Do you think for one second that HD-DVD won’t have some kind of device on display to demonstrate their wares? If they didn't, that would certainly be a surefire way to pronounce to the world at large that they aren’t for real, wouldn’t it? Why don’t they just jump up and down waving their arms wildly, while holding placards stating “WE FAILEDâ€. You’re too smart for that. Go back and read my posts concerning this issue again, particularly the parts about solutions to the problem.

But the bottom line is that whatever they show at CES, in no way reflects upon the fact that the HD-DVD players which Toshiba “flipped the switch†on (to use your expression), did not work. While I have no personal knowledge of this development, my source on this is a respected member of the industry and I have no doubt this info is absolutely true, particularly as he has no axe to grind with either side. If you don’t want to believe this revelation, that’s your choice. It's certainly one way to achieve bliss.

BTW, that EETimes article is pretty juicy, and I see everyone clamoring for a response from the Fudmaster Flash – Amir. Why, when we have his proxy Nataraj so readily available? Oh that’s right, Nat says he’s not speaking for MS although he’s an MS employee. And yet…there are so many tie-ins with Amir. Actually I noted this partly (but only partly) in jest a while back, here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6557257

But looking at the most recent pages of the threads in this forum, it is becoming more and more evident.

Those who have been here awhile should recall that it was Amir who started the specific name calling of those who preferred BD as “blind supportersâ€. Well, now who has become the standard bearer on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
There are supporters and then there are blind supporters ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
And there are no blind BR supporters ?
And with all the FUD and manipulations that have occurred here between Amir, Rick Marquardt, Warren L. and others, it is interesting the MS camp wants to take umbrage wrt to an article that was authored by the same individual of many other reports we have relied upon in this thread, similarly to the way Amir tried to trashed Paul Sweeting of VB who provided a credible account of the HD-DVD bluff, it is now characterized as rumor mongering:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
Because those remarks are clearly rumormongering (the traslated piece starts with "It is said that ...") and even NYT does not always print rumors unless it is a question of going to war :rolleyes:
I’m sorry, but I’ve been chuckling at this one for the past hour, because AFAIK, the single person who has spread the greatest number of rumors at this forum, has been Amir (okay, ********’s a close second). But, of course, MS shouldn’t be subject to the same standards as others, because they live on a higher plateau, right?

I’ve also noticed that Nat has been trying to achieve the same post counts as Amir (particularly during Amir’s more fervent spin cycles). By my count through a search, Nat has put up approximately 60 posts just in the prior two days, all in this forum. 60 posts on this subject in 2 days? I’ll bet that record even exceeds the Master.

My point is simple. Based upon his record here (unlike other MS employees, such as Sspears), while hiding behind the claimed veil of not speaking for MS, Nataraj has been essentially doing so, without any accountability. The recent exchange with Talkstr8t concerning BD-J merely hit the point home for me further. So, let’s just drop the whole pretense of independence here. Why doesn’t he just openly embrace the mantle he has assumed, and move past this charade?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
Be assured someone like Amir would have a solid fall back strategy ... though it may not be apparent to mere mortals like us :D
Ahhh yes, us mere mortals should stop acting like ingrates. We should bow to the higher powers who wish to beneficently shape our future.

Glad I got that rant out before the new year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael
In the BDA's defense, this would add (yet) another delay to getting players out the door. If all of the specs so far specify a Java VM to be running, everyone's already designed their interactivity solution around Java. Rewriting software to use iHD takes a finite amount of time and energy to implement, and time to market is a factor. It's not just PCs, it's any Blu-ray device which was planning on enabling interactivity, and for all I know that could be a majority of the initial offerings-- including the PS3!

Or, in other words, the same reason Amir says MS won't put Blu-ray support into Vista: that ship has sailed, and significant new features will not be added because they might impact the release schedule.
Arch, I have rarely disagreed with your comments, but I must part company with that final analogy, based upon the history of Amir’s own comments. Amir has made clear that MS had no intention of joining BD group, even though they ‘begged’ MS to do so. The reason was fairly clear. MS would not be able to control the powers that constituted the BD, as they have been able to achieve with HD-DVD. Considering MS’ clout, do you think the BD would have refused to consider iHD as at least an option to BD-J, just as BD included VC-1 as a codec option. MS drew that line in the sand when it potentially still had the opportunity to incorporate BD native support in an OS which was almost 2 years from completion. Now it appears, they are more than willing to sacrifice or hold hostage the entire next gen of optical disks to advance their own agenda. Had MS (and Toshiba) joined in what was initially supposed to be a united approach to HD disks, we would not be in the current situation.

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind
post #18834 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladin
Okay, now I’m beginning to regret that I responded to your inquiries in any respect, because your post seems to be suggesting that I am one of those trying to spread FUD here, which is categorically untrue and not appreciated. To the contrary, I have tried to debunk the FUD (particularly by industry members here), because I deem it so counterproductive to the purpose of this thread. Obviously, I can't be responsible for someone else’s inability to believe that Toshiba’s HD-DVD players were seriously flawed.
Palladin, it is the farthest of my intensions to infer you are spreading FUD. I am sorry that you have/had that impression :(

Personally, I was quite taken back by the premise that the Toshiba players did *not* work. I was under the assumption that that was a GIVEN (that players worked). I was surprised to say the least, and was wondering why no one else seemed to be concerned about this revelation.

Are we still buds?? :o
post #18835 of 18952
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight1
Palladin, it is the farthest of my intensions to infer you are spreading FUD. I am sorry that you have/had that impression :(

Personally, I was quite taken back by the premise that the Toshiba players did *not* work. I was under the assumption that that was a GIVEN (that players worked). I was surprised to say the least, and was wondering why no one else seemed to be concerned about this revelation.
In that case, I regret my misunderstanding of the intent, and my tone.

Quote:
Are we still buds?? :o
But, of course. And a Happy New Year to you and yours. :)

______________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind
post #18836 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladin

But, of course. And a Happy New Year to you and yours. :)
Likewise :D

My point regarding CES was the hope that more evidence would be shown/demonstrated (e.g. DL BD-ROMs) to finally prove/disprove everything that is being said in this Forum. I guess we will (hopefully) know in a week!
post #18837 of 18952
This is such a huge thread. In reading much of it, it seems like it's a fued between a small group of anti-MS/pro-BDA folks (Archibael, AnthonyP, Jimbo Moran, etc.) versus a smaller group of pro-MS folks (Amir, Nataraj, etc.).

The thing that matters most to me is having the most user friendly, least intrusive/restrictive DRM format. So far, that would put me on the HD-DVD side. Everything else is just background noise to me in comparison.

Do you think BDA would really lose much studio support if they dropped the extra DRM? (greedy Fox a-holes might not like it but so what...I don't think they would drop from BDA because of it).
post #18838 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladin
Okay, now I’m beginning to regret that I responded to your inquiries in any respect, because your post seems to be suggesting that I am one of those trying to spread FUD here, which is categorically untrue and not appreciated. To the contrary, I have tried to debunk the FUD (particularly by industry members here), because I deem it so counterproductive to the purpose of this thread. Obviously, I can't be responsible for someone else’s inability to believe that Toshiba’s HD-DVD players were seriously flawed.

CES is going to clear up the FUD? C'mon now. Do you think for one second that HD-DVD won’t have some kind of device on display to demonstrate their wares? If they didn't, that would certainly be a surefire way to pronounce to the world at large that they aren’t for real, wouldn’t it? Why don’t they just jump up and down waving their arms wildly, while holding placards stating “WE FAILEDâ€. You’re too smart for that. Go back and read my posts concerning this issue again, particularly the parts about solutions to the problem.
So if Toshiba shows a HD-DVD player at CES then that is automatically "FUD"? :rolleyes:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladin
But the bottom line is that whatever they show at CES, in no way reflects upon the fact that the HD-DVD players which Toshiba “flipped the switch†on (to use your expression), did not work. While I have no personal knowledge of this development, my source on this is a respected member of the industry and I have no doubt this info is absolutely true, particularly as he has no axe to grind with either side. If you don’t want to believe this revelation, that’s your choice. It's certainly one way to achieve bliss.

BTW, that EETimes article is pretty juicy, and I see everyone clamoring for a response from the Fudmaster Flash – Amir. Why, when we have his proxy Nataraj so readily available? Oh that’s right, Nat says he’s not speaking for MS although he’s an MS employee. And yet…there are so many tie-ins with Amir. Actually I noted this partly (but only partly) in jest a while back, here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6557257

But looking at the most recent pages of the threads in this forum, it is becoming more and more evident.

Those who have been here awhile should recall that it was Amir who started the specific name calling of those who preferred BD as “blind supportersâ€. Well, now who has become the standard bearer on this:




And with all the FUD and manipulations that have occurred here between Amir, Rick Marquardt, Warren L. and others, it is interesting the MS camp wants to take umbrage wrt to an article that was authored by the same individual of many other reports we have relied upon in this thread, similarly to the way Amir tried to trashed Paul Sweeting of VB who provided a credible account of the HD-DVD bluff, it is now characterized as rumor mongering:


I’m sorry, but I’ve been chuckling at this one for the past hour, because AFAIK, the single person who has spread the greatest number of rumors at this forum, has been Amir (okay, ********’s a close second). But, of course, MS shouldn’t be subject to the same standards as others, because they live on a higher plateau, right?

I’ve also noticed that Nat has been trying to achieve the same post counts as Amir (particularly during Amir’s more fervent spin cycles). By my count through a search, Nat has put up approximately 60 posts just in the prior two days, all in this forum. 60 posts on this subject in 2 days? I’ll bet that record even exceeds the Master.

My point is simple. Based upon his record here (unlike other MS employees, such as Sspears), while hiding behind the claimed veil of not speaking for MS, Nataraj has been essentially doing so, without any accountability. The recent exchange with Talkstr8t concerning BD-J merely hit the point home for me further. So, let’s just drop the whole pretense of independence here. Why doesn’t he just openly embrace the mantle he has assumed, and move past this charade?



Ahhh yes, us mere mortals should stop acting like ingrates. We should bow to the higher powers who wish to beneficently shape our future.

Glad I got that rant out before the new year.


Arch, I have rarely disagreed with your comments, but I must part company with that final analogy, based upon the history of Amir’s own comments. Amir has made clear that MS had no intention of joining BD group, even though they ‘begged’ MS to do so. The reason was fairly clear. MS would not be able to control the powers that constituted the BD, as they have been able to achieve with HD-DVD. Considering MS’ clout, do you think the BD would have refused to consider iHD as at least an option to BD-J, just as BD included VC-1 as a codec option. MS drew that line in the sand when it potentially still had the opportunity to incorporate BD native support in an OS which was almost 2 years from completion. Now it appears, they are more than willing to sacrifice or hold hostage the entire next gen of optical disks to advance their own agenda. Had MS (and Toshiba) joined in what was initially supposed to be a united approach to HD disks, we would not be in the current situation.

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind
Wow, talk about a bad "winner". Why don't you just take your BR victory with grace instead spewing adhominen diatribes (e.g. calling Amir "Fudmaster Flash") against those who lost? And why do you continue to spread the FUD, and yes I do use the term "FUD" regarding your post, that Microsoft is "holding the entire next gen of optical discs hostage" when a few posts above it's been stated that third parties can implement the BR software themselves, regardless of Microsoft's stance on BD-J? Unless you can provide solid evidence that Microsoft is doing something to block third parties from implementing BR software under Vista, then you are spreading FUD, misinformation, and disinformation.
post #18839 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palladin
Quote:
Or, in other words, the same reason Amir says MS won't put Blu-ray support into Vista: that ship has sailed, and significant new features will not be added because they might impact the release schedule.
Arch, I have rarely disagreed with your comments, but I must part company with that final analogy, based upon the history of Amir’s own comments. Amir has made clear that MS had no intention of joining BD group, even though they ‘begged’ MS to do so. The reason was fairly clear. MS would not be able to control the powers that constituted the BD, as they have been able to achieve with HD-DVD. Considering MS’ clout, do you think the BD would have refused to consider iHD as at least an option to BD-J, just as BD included VC-1 as a codec option. MS drew that line in the sand when it potentially still had the opportunity to incorporate BD native support in an OS which was almost 2 years from completion.
I see it a little differently than you: I think MS was perfectly willing to maintain a neutral stance on the format war until BD+ came on the scene; the refusal of iHD and the other stated reasons for their hostility toward the format weren't in and of themselves sufficient to push them into moving against it. But BD+ threatened MMC, which was central to a great deal of their business model with the new disc formats (and, as far as I can tell, Intel's, too), and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I think they intended to support AACS-only, put a lot of effort into it, and when it suddenly came out that BD+ would be something further to deal with, they went on the offensive.

Quote:
Now it appears, they are more than willing to sacrifice or hold hostage the entire next gen of optical disks to advance their own agenda. Had MS (and Toshiba) joined in what was initially supposed to be a united approach to HD disks, we would not be in the current situation.
Well, I don't think Sony intended Blu-ray to necessarily be a "unified approach" to HD disks. I think they looked at the composition of the DVD Forum, realized that they'd not be able to push through a blue-laser format with their specs and technology and patents, and formed an external group, hoping to make the DVD Forum's approval irrelevant by moving quickly and decisively.

I personally think this has been a good thing, as otherwise we'd be getting red-laser HD-DVD-9 only: that was what was originally proposed, and it wasn't until it became clear that Blu-ray was not going away that AOD was proposed to the Forum.
post #18840 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by GamerGuy
This is such a huge thread. In reading much of it, it seems like it's a fued between a small group of anti-MS/pro-BDA folks (Archibael, AnthonyP, Jimbo Moran, etc.) versus a smaller group of pro-MS folks (Amir, Nataraj, etc.).
Appearances can be deceiving. I don't dislike Microsoft, though there are several of their products I am not fond of. I'm pretty neutral in stance on BD vs HD-DVD except...

Quote:
The thing that matters most to me is having the most user friendly, least intrusive/restrictive DRM format. So far, that would put me on the HD-DVD side. Everything else is just background noise to me in comparison.
... that unlike you, the most important thing to me is studio participation. I could care less about the DRM, as the usage models it inhibits are not ones I am interested in anyway. And I think BD has a better chance of 100% studio participation than HD-DVD does. If HD-DVD gets 100% participation, I promise you it will be more than 2 years away at least; BD has a good likelihood of achieving this come out the gate.

Quote:
Do you think BDA would really lose much studio support if they dropped the extra DRM? (greedy Fox a-holes might not like it but so what...I don't think they would drop from BDA because of it).
Yes, I think they would. They'd lose Fox, who might turn to HD-DVD out of spite, if nothing else. And whatever you may think of the greediness of Fox's executives, they have a substantial catalog of films I enjoy. That's what it's all about, to me.
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