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post #18871 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81
Thing I heard about Grove was that he had a cubicle like everyone else and that he liked regimented work schedules, meaning it was expected you'd be in work by 8 AM. If the latter was true, that's a pretty unique thing in Silicon Valley.
I think stories about Grove and Barrett are getting conflated. Grove did indeed have a cube like everyone else. Well, with an attached private "conference cube", but that's not really all that unique in high-level managers here. The place he sat to read his email was the same size as mine. There are no offices, per se, at Intel. Certainly no "mahogany row" of execs with nicer work areas, as I've seen at other companies I've visited or worked at. Barrett carried on this tradition, and as far as I know Otellini is doing the same. Execs don't fly first class, they fly on the company Embraer, sitting next to folks just like me (in two cases, sitting next to folks who actually are me). There's no illusion of all emplyees being equal, of course, but it's nice to know that, beyond impressively high salaries and stock options, the perks are not really all that different.

But I've not heard about Grove being a stickler for work hours. The stories I've heard to that extent have all been fifteen-year-old ones about Barrett: how he'd stand at the top of a stairwell and count the number of employees coming in at 8:01am and later (one assumes he was not standing at the bottom taking a count of those leaving post-5pm as well).

Quote:
BTW, is it only technophiles or the media who believe there's a battle for the living room? I'm a skeptic when it comes to convergence:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27040

But it sounds like Intel is betting a big part of the company on it.
We're not betting as much on it as, say, Sony is betting on the PS3/Blu-ray, but there are some risks being taken, sure.

Grove talked about the "battle for [consumers'] eyeballs" since the mid-90s, so this isn't anything new for us from a strategic perspective. The tactics have definitely gotten different in recent years, however. I hope we're living in interesting times, but I also hope it's not "interesting" from the Chinese proverbial perspective...
post #18872 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael
And most of all... may you all have a good time arguing about it until we find out for sure... and beyond!

:)


'Course, I'm not sure we'll get any of that, but those are my holiday wishes.
Oh, we'll definitely be arguing about it (whatever that may be). That's a given! :D

Happy New Year, everyone.
post #18873 of 18952
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael
Well, of course they did. "We've established a new group where you don't hold the same positions of power you did in the old group and don't own any of the patents! Come and join it!"
I wasn’t disparaging Toshiba and TW for their self-interests (“greed is goodâ€, as Gekko would say), but anyway you slice it, some of their patents will be incorporated in BD technology anyway. I guess the issue is, if you want to move forward together for the ultimate mutual benefit of the group, you can’t insist that everyone shouldn’t be permitted to dip their beaks. Besides I don’t think the potential patent well (or pool) had already been exhausted at the time that Toshiba was approached.


Quote:
Like I said, I think the great schism has done more good for everyone than had it not occurred. But I don't necessarily lay the blame on Toshiba and Warner for being obstructive, when it seems to me that they were deliberately being snubbed because of their insistence on HD-DVD-9.
I’d agree with that first sentence as far as the long term, as opposed to the short term goal of getting those disks into our greedy hands as soon as possible. But on the rest, well you lost me here. Based upon published reports, Warren Lieberfarb was the very first one approached by the BD big two/three, so TW was in the loop early on and passed along their plans to Toshiba. Toshiba had already dismissed the blue laser approach, and turned instead to something which offered a very limited improvement. How is that being snubbed?

Quote:
Actually, if you've ever read anything about parliamentary politics, it can sometimes be easier to influence decisions by being in an external "spoiler" role rather than as a part of a major party, and that's why MS retained their independence in this up until the last minute. If you're in the group, you have one vote, and any others you can convince of your rightness. If you're outside the group, you can offer competitive ideas which might steal market share from the group, and thus impel them to include them as well in order to co-opt you. In MS's case, it didn't work, as Sony had too much to gain and not enough to lose, but it's not a bad strategy if you can get it to work.

In all, it's not a terribly useful argument to have, except in a purely philosophical sense, and at this point I'll just agree to disagree with you on this.
I guess we will on that point, but I've never had any issue with agreeing to disagree. Yes, I have a fundamental understanding of parliamentary politics, but it was still a bad call. The handwriting was clearly on the wall as to Sony’s desperation wrt to their existing need to re-invent and re-invigorate themselves, and if anyone had any doubts, it was certainly put to bed by the bidding war for MGM, in which TW’s role was primarily that of a spoiler, and Sony got in way over their head by the nature of their financial commitment. You don’t need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing. MS could’ve adopted the role of the white knight and exerted considerably more control in the back room than that simple ‘one vote’ that you suggest (as is often the case in such politics); or which they can achieve at this point in the game.

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind
post #18874 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant
Well nataraj, you can dispute his development times all you want, but that just strengthens his assertion that MS should go with a 3rd party implementation. That they may not be willing to make that choice is their problem.
Lets step back a bit.

Why exactly do we want vista to have native BR playback ? Presumably to have it integrate well with Vista in terms of look & feel, security etc. Can a third party party implemenation achieve this ? How is a 3rd party implementation different from the PC vendor like Dell preinstalling PowerDVD or some such player with the PC ?

To integrate properly with vista, you need people who have good vista domain knowledge to work on the feature ... you can't just buy that in the market. So, IMO you either implement properly or let 3rd party s/w developers provide a solution.

It is very clear from his posts that even he does not think an implementation (as opposed to just coding) is not possible in a month. Thats all I was pointing out.
post #18875 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael
Whether we can deliver "cheap" from the platform perspective or not is a great question, and until after CES, even I won't know for sure.
I've wondered about this. Looks to me a generic hw+sw solution (i.e. PC) would find it difficult to lower the price to a point which a targeted hw + firmware device can.

So I think there will always be CE devices with fewer features, but costing less. PC like devices would be feature rich and would always cost more ....

With viiv I think we see our HTPC ideas finally coming mainstream. Also it will finally be possible to easily get a htpc in the form factors (and quit operation) we have struggled to achieve for years.
post #18876 of 18952
Quote:
First, I question your assertion that it would add no value and I contend it could make discs cheaper for the reason I stated above
Escamillo: you said
Quote:
I don't know why both iHD and BD-J can't be adopted.
so now for each machine/player you need to pay royalties to each one. As for saving it on disks. I don't know how it works for menus, but in my experience with other stuff my guess what ever the license will be will be one per SW or device. I doubt if it is used for X movies or Y replicas of a movie that the studio will pay a different amount. Now if I am right then it is a fixed amount and if it is a fixed amount then a studio will need to have all three the cheap HDMV (about the same as DVD now in capabilities), BD-J for high end menus and then iHD to make MS happy.

Quote:
But regarding your "just to make MS happy" comment, things are done to make parties happy all the time (e.g. Fox).
yes but
1) Fox brings a whole bunch of movies to the table
2) Fox is the a customer

how does that apply to MS that is just a company that wants to make more money form these formats and is crying because BR does not want to buy their menu tool?

Quote:
Since when do consumers care about the internal software of CE devices?
they don't and I don't. In the end I want the best menu system (and I think it is BD-J) and I don't want BR delayed more then it needs too (and changing fundamental stuff like the menu system at the last second will do that.
post #18877 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
I've wondered about this. Looks to me a generic hw+sw solution (i.e. PC) would find it difficult to lower the price to a point which a targeted hw + firmware device can.

So I think there will always be CE devices with fewer features, but costing less. PC like devices would be feature rich and would always cost more ....
Well, of course. It's nearly always easier to make a dedicated device than a flexible one. Or at least cheaper.

Intel's philosophy (whether you consider it a new philosophy or just a rehash of our old one) is to make offerings that are so compelling that people are willing to pay the extra bucks for the flexibility.

For techies, or wannabe techies, that might not be too difficult. For the "cheaper at all costs" consumer, this will probably not be effective unless we can make the bells and whistles "must have". And I don't know, yet, how that's going to happen.
post #18878 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy
Quote:
this behavior is not only anti-consumer
Says who? MMC is anti-consumer? More competition is good for the consumer also.
I'm not referring to MMC, I'm referring to the real evidence that they're merely trying to prolong the format battle.
post #18879 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
2) Fox is the customer
Did you mean a customer ?

Quote:
how does that apply to MS that is just a company that wants to make more money form these formats and is crying because BR does not want to buy their menu tool?
Last time I checked nobody is in this business for charity.
post #18880 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
I'm not referring to MMC, I'm referring to the real evidence that they're merely trying to prolong the format battle.

I perfer a format war. Consumer will decide the length of it. You are actually blaming MS for not let Sony "win" before the fight acutally begins in the real market.
post #18881 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy
I perfer a format war. Consumer will decide the length of it. You are actually blaming MS for not let Sony "win" before the fight acutally begins in the real market.
One nice thing about a format war is folks with only component connections (like me) will gravitate towards the discs that don't downrez, or do it on fewer discs. So I'm in favor of letting them fight it out for awhile.

- Tom
post #18882 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry
One nice thing about a format war is folks with only component connections (like me) will gravitate towards the discs that don't downrez, or do it on fewer discs. So I'm in favor of letting them fight it out for awhile.

- Tom
I agree, Tom. And I hope some of these issues are clarified at CES. It would be nice to know exactly how both camps are going to handle this. I know there's been all kinds of rumors and speculation, and even some PR from AACS, but there are still questions about this (like what exactly will BD+ do).
post #18883 of 18952
Quote:
Palladin, it is the farthest of my intensions to infer you are spreading FUD. I am sorry that you have/had that impression

Personally, I was quite taken back by the premise that the Toshiba players did *not* work. I was under the assumption that that was a GIVEN (that players worked). I was surprised to say the least, and was wondering why no one else seemed to be concerned about this revelation.
sknight1: agree, but like Palladin said there was an issue with the player at one of the shows (I think it was the one in Berlin) there was also the Cinram issue that (I think) Alex brought to the thread, where Cinram was POed at Toshiba because after asking many times and for a long time Toshiba would not send them a TL player so that they can test the disks they produced.
post #18884 of 18952
Quote:
This is such a huge thread. In reading much of it, it seems like it's a fued between a small group of anti-MS/pro-BDA folks (Archibael, AnthonyP, Jimbo Moran, etc.) versus a smaller group of pro-MS folks (Amir, Nataraj, etc.).
would be intresting if you cn find one of m mythical anti-MS comment, I would also be interested of one of Archibael since I don't remember seeing any negative comments from him

as for the second group don't you mean MS employees :)

Quote:
The thing that matters most to me is having the most user friendly, least intrusive/restrictive DRM format. So far, that would put me on the HD-DVD side. Everything else is just background noise to me in comparison.
please give some examples where BR has more intrusive/restrictive DRM format. You know a case or two that can happen with BR but not HD-DVD
post #18885 of 18952
Quote:
nataraj:Why exactly do we want vista to have native BR playback ? Presumably to have it integrate well with Vista in terms of look & feel, security etc. Can a third party party implemenation achieve this?[/b]
Of course it can. Nobody said that MS can't provide specifications to said third-party vendor to customize their product for tight integration into Vista. There are plenty of third-party apps that integrate well into stock Windows XP, for example. Going that route is still far less work than building it from the ground up, because the core VM and most of the class libraries won't need to be changed.
Quote:
How is a 3rd party implementation different from the PC vendor like Dell preinstalling PowerDVD or some such player with the PC ?
Well, from what I said above, MS can provide more control over the experience by subcontracting. However, as others have pointed out, and I agree, there's not necessarily any need for MS to provide a BD-J implementation. But there wasn't any such need for iHD, either. They made the choice. Hence your original question, and Talkstr8t's answer: if MS chose to integrate BD-J into Vista...
Quote:
To integrate properly with vista, you need people who have good vista domain knowledge to work on the feature ... you can't just buy that in the market.
You make it sound like we're talking about going to Best Buy and pulling a disk off the shelf. We're talking about contracting with someone with combined Java and MS talent under the same roof and providing them early developer snapshots of Vista and sufficiently clear customization specifications. I just don't see how you can claim that's going to end up being so cumbersome. MS didn't get successful without good software development practices that allow clean division of labor on a product as large as Vista. Besides, BD-J is not a core feature of the OS itself, it is a peripheral user-mode feature that is far easier to compartmentalize.

Honestly, I think that in making your argument you are selling MS short. I for one have considerable respect for MS's abilities in the area of large-scale software development. Not that their products are perfect, and some are far less so than others, but I just don't believe it's beyond MS's capabilities to go the 3rd-party route here.

But I guess it's all moot anyway. BD playback is going to be a third-party solution on Vista, by MS's own choice, and that's the way it goes.
post #18886 of 18952
Quote:
You say you don't care about BD's extra DRM because you don't care about the usage models it inhibits. But how do you know that you won't care about those usage models in the future?
Escamillo: you do realize we are talking ethics here. Values don't change for no reason. Someone that thinks it is right to pay for movies they own will think it is the right thing even if it was easier. If I wanted I could copy DVDs now, but I don't. So even if AACS is broken and HD-DVD became DRM free and BR because of BD+ did not there would not make a difference in my life because I personally think of it as stealing and not something I feel like doing. If some people are comfortable with that, I don't have a problem, it is up to you and your conscience, but not something that interests me today and not something that will interest me 20y ears from now.
post #18887 of 18952
Quote:
It always occurs to me why didn't HD DVD give FOX SPDC?
HD DVD even did bribe Universal for their support, right? What is the problem with more DRM? HD DVD needs FOX more than BDA does. I really don't know what HD DVD camp was thinking, HTPC users, consumer rights?
lymzy: obviously this is an opinion from watching this happen with a telescope, but I think what happened was that HD-DVD became complacent. Back this time last year HD-DVD had more studio support and was going around talking about how much cheaper it will be and it would be nuts for studios to go BR. I think they were taking it for granted that most studios would care only about replication cost and, sinse they had that, that it would be an easy victory (tortoise and hare type of scenario).

I also think since HD-DVD is supposed to be the cost conscious choice they decided not to do anything that would increase cost. Not to mention that BD+ is just an add on that helps in case of issues (added cost possibly no benefit), if you think you have an unsinkable ship (in AACS) there is no use filling it with life boats (BD+)
post #18888 of 18952
MS Vista to reject regioned / encrypted DVDs in RPC1 drives


Quote:
When DVD-ROM drives first hit the market in 1998, the DVD specification required that software measures would be put in place to enforce the region coding and checking measure. However, from January 1st 2000, this has changed by requiring the drives themselves to enforce the region code change remaining count and checking. As a result, the original drives were known as RPC1 drives and the 'newer' drives are known as RPC2 drives.

Due to the complexity of adding software region coding support, issues with certain early DVD-ROM drives and the difficulty in obtaining old working DVD-ROM drives for testing, Microsoft has decided to drop the support for RPC1 drives in its upcoming operating system by refusing to allow the playback of region coded or encrypted DVDs placed in an RPC1 drive.

While this is unlikely to affect anyone who has a DVD-ROM drive purchased within the past five years, this will pose a problem for those who flash their drive with modified firmware to make the drive act as an RPC1 (region free) drive. Other issues include the use of tweaked firmware in DVD writers, since many of these firmware modifications also include the modification to turn the drive into an RPC1 drive.

Windows Vista will not have support for really old DVD drives. (The information below was kindly provided to me by the optical storage driver team.)

When PC DVD drives first came out in 1998, the drives themselves did not have support for region codes but instead relied on (and in fact the DVD specification required) the operating system to enforce region coding, with the further understanding that starting on January 1, 2000 all newly-manufactured drives would support region coding in hardware rather than relying on software enforcement. For the purpose of this discussion, I will call the two types of drives "old" (manufactured before 2000) and "new" (manufactured on or after January 1, 2000).

The full article can be read here.


It will be interesting to see if DVD region free tools work with RPC1 drives in Vista, considering that many simply reset Windows’ own region count, something that will be removed in Vista. Then again, chances are that the drop of RPC1 drive support will not affect those who use RPC2 ‘auto-resetting’ firmware where the region change remaining count is reset to 5 each time the PC is powered up.

In my opinion, if Microsoft is actually aiming to kill off the support for region-free drives altogether, this may be a bad mistake for Microsoft, considering that most standalone DVD players are either region free, such as the NeoDigits HD upscaling player we reviewed or can easily be made region-free with a secret remote control key sequence. If Microsoft’s aims to try and enforce region code checking, then they can expect an even tougher time trying to take over home entertainment in the living room.
post #18889 of 18952
Quote:
Did you mean a customer ?
nataraj: I meant the as in the role that they are playing, not as in only one, the same way you are the customer in the store where you are buying something. But I did cross off the and put an a in place. But if it helps with confusion, I don't have a problem changing it.

Quote:
Last time I checked nobody is in this business for charity.
agree, but the discussion was why shouldn't BR make MS happy if they are willing to make Fox happy. The answer is Fox is one of their customers and giving a customer what they want, assuming the demand is not unreasonable, is usually a good idea, on the other hand there is no reason that the same applies to MS which in this case is not a customer but a company that wants BR to buy their product and are just POed that BR went with the competitor
post #18890 of 18952
Quote:
Did you mean a customer ?
nataraj: I meant the as in the role that they are playing, not as in only one, the same way you are the customer in the store where you are buying something. But I did cross off the and put an a in place. But if it helps with confusion, I don't have a problem changing it.

Quote:
Last time I checked nobody is in this business for charity.
agree, but the discussion was why shouldn't BR make MS happy if they are willing to make Fox happy. The answer is Fox is one of their customers and giving a customer what they want, assuming the demand is not unreasonable, is usually a good idea, on the other hand there is no reason that the same applies to MS which in this case is not a customer but a company that wants BR to buy their product and are just POed that BR went with the competitor
post #18891 of 18952
Again, so much for the continued claim that the data must be free.
post #18892 of 18952
Funny. Well, fortunately I wasn't planning on upgrading my old Win2K machines to Vista.
post #18893 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael
Funny. Well, fortunately I wasn't planning on upgrading my old Win2K machines to Vista.
The thing that kills me about this is that, in essence, they're making it so that people who do legitimately buy discs, even if they are from another "region", cannot play them.

Just like with the game consoles, this does not stop them from playing pirated discs because those aren't coded in any way. It's just another method of penalizing the people that are for the most part really playing by the rules.
post #18894 of 18952
It appears worse than that; it looks like any disk which is not Region 0 will not play. That includes disks in the same region. Wacky.
post #18895 of 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael
Funny. Well, fortunately I wasn't planning on upgrading my old Win2K machines to Vista.
If I understood the article correctly, if you have a brand new DVD drive and you modify the drive's firmware to be "region-free" then Vista won't recognise any "regioned" discs inserted into the drive.
post #18896 of 18952
I don't think it is big news, but I would love to have had this all the time I had to hear someone say how MS is the only company that cares about HT fans needs just because they were pushing MMC (and I don't mean the people that have said they work for MS)
post #18897 of 18952
Quote:
It appears worse than that; it looks like any disk which is not Region 0 will not play. That includes disks in the same region. Wacky.
archibael: isn't R0 a region? The way I understand it any data stream that reaches the PC and is not treated previously by the drive will be stopped.
post #18898 of 18952
I thought that Region 0 was essentially "region free", but I could definitely be mistaken.
post #18899 of 18952
I know how it is applied (region free), but does it count?

i.e. I am guessing RCP2 drives read the data, check for RC, if disc RC=0 or disk RC=player RC then send mpeg2 and audio to PC (i.e. the RC is missing because it was looked at by the drive)

I am guessing RCP1 drives read the data and send it to the PC and then the PC SW is supposed to look at RC before playing.

Now from the article I am guessing Vista will have something like

if RC exists then
do nothing
else
play
endif

now if region code 0 is really RC=0 then there is a chance (assuming it is an if exists) that even R0 won’t play.
post #18900 of 18952
did a bit of searching. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD#Region_codes

Quote:
Any combination of regions can be applied to a single disc. For example, a DVD designated Region 2/4 is suitable for playback in Western Europe, Oceania and any other Region 2 or Region 4 area. Often labeled "all" or "all regions," a so-called "Region 0" disc (actually coded Region 1/2/3/4/5/6) is meant to be playable worldwide
if that is the case then it will definitely not play
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