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Cox Cable 6412 w/ Pioneer Passport Review and Discussion - Page 10

post #271 of 3680
Oddly enough, I just watched 3 recorded HD programs using FF, pause, etc; and never had 1 breakup. Yay me
post #272 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by VideooooGuy
The video breakup is now a known problem. It's not a bug in the Moto DVR, or due to a lack of testing by Cox.

The problem is related to an unusual condition between some HD channel handling in the headend (a specific piece of equipment used by some Cox headends) and the HD handling chip in the Moto DVR.

There is a software fix being developed which will be installed in Cox systems as soon as possible.

Thanks very much for the update Video Guy. Any ETA on the fix to be deployed? Is it another firmware update for the 6412 boxes or a fix only at Cox end? Any idea about the "guide hole" bug? Thanks for any other info you can provide.
post #273 of 3680
> Thanks very much for the update Video Guy. Any ETA on the fix to be deployed? Is it another firmware update for the 6412 boxes or a fix only at Cox end? Any idea about the "guide hole" bug? Thanks for any other info you can provide.


I'm new to posting in forums, so please be patient with my newbieness.

Now that the HD breakup problem is understood, there are several ways to fix it. The Cox fix will be provided in a Motorola firmware update combined with a Pioneer Passport-ECHO update. We're working hard towards getting this into the field systems during the first two weeks of November - BUT ... that requires that no new bugs/issues were introduced with the fix.

I apologize for the time delay, but that's what's required for testing by Motorola, Pioneer, and Cox.
post #274 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by VideooooGuy
> Thanks very much for the update Video Guy. Any ETA on the fix to be deployed? Is it another firmware update for the 6412 boxes or a fix only at Cox end? Any idea about the "guide hole" bug? Thanks for any other info you can provide.


I'm new to posting in forums, so please be patient with my newbieness.

Now that the HD breakup problem is understood, there are several ways to fix it. The Cox fix will be provided in a Motorola firmware update combined with a Pioneer Passport-ECHO update. We're working hard towards getting this into the field systems during the first two weeks of November - BUT ... that requires that no new bugs/issues were introduced with the fix.

I apologize for the time delay, but that's what's required for testing by Motorola, Pioneer, and Cox.

OK thanks and really appreciate the feedback and honesty. It's good to know that Cox cares enough about this to keep us informed one way or another, and I think you'll find feedback given in this forum mostly valuable. Just hope the "guide hole" bug can also be understood and fixed in the same update. If you guys run (or plan to run) any kind of beta testing for existing customers I would be interested in signing up.
post #275 of 3680
do you know if this upcoming firmware upgrade will fix the DVI issues people are having?
post #276 of 3680
Big thanks Videoooguy. We do appreciate interaction from Cox. The more I use this box, the more I actually like it. My breakup issues haven't been as severe since day 1, and I am enjoying being able to watch all the HD programming I miss with my current work shift (2nd shift sucks!). If you can fix the breakup issue and allow us expanded storage, I'll be in heaven
post #277 of 3680
Thread Starter 
One of my fellow HD enthuiasts here in ICT tells me that since Tue or Wed he has not been experiencing the tiling/pixelization anymore FWIW. As I had posted above my display is in the shop and I cannot tell if I am fixed as well.

My "Crystal Ball" also said something to the effect that the DVI fix is tentatively set for 1Q2005.
post #278 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by oleus
do you know if this upcoming firmware upgrade will fix the DVI issues people are having?

I don't know if it was by accident, but I don't have the DVI issue with this latest firmware anymore. With the previous single-tuner firmware the DVI handshaking bug happened every time I switched off the display.
post #279 of 3680
The DVI issue is the only thing fixed by the latest firmware.

niesman
post #280 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by niesman
The DVI issue is the only thing fixed by the latest firmware.

niesman

Don't forget we got these fixes too (along with the new search capability and new bugs of course):
2. FF/REW of HD programming is much smoother and faster
3. Playing a program that is still recording actually starts from the beginning now and FF/REW doesn't kick you back to live
post #281 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by madpoet
Big thanks Videoooguy. We do appreciate interaction from Cox. The more I use this box, the more I actually like it. My breakup issues haven't been as severe since day 1, and I am enjoying being able to watch all the HD programming I miss with my current work shift (2nd shift sucks!). If you can fix the breakup issue and allow us expanded storage, I'll be in heaven

Although we're working on it, expanded (external) storage is a tough problem. Here's why ...

The content owners (like HBO, NBC, etc.) require Cox to implement Copy Protection mechanisms anytime the corresponding Copy Protection bit is set on content coming into our headends. When the hard drive is inside this set-top, this isn't too tough.

When the hard drive can be externally connected, it requires that we encrypt content exiting the set-top and ensure that the receiving hard drive adheres to copy protection rules. Let your brain start to think through the use cases on that one and you'll be reaching for the B.C. powder pretty quickly.

TiVo doesn't have this kind of problem, since they aren't distributors of content.

Anyway ... Copy Protection is why we don't anticipate ever being able to support external USB hard drives on DVRs. 1394 (FireWire) and DVI/HDMI are OK because there are accepted encryption standards for these interfaces.

Hope this helps.
post #282 of 3680
That's what we kind of figured . It's certainly fine by me, I'm using firewire anyway for my JVC deck. 12 hours is making it a little tough though . Is there any chance of a 6412 with an expanded drive, like a 250 or 300? I realize there are cost concerns, just curious. Frankly I'd buy the box if I could and upgrade the hard drive myself! I just want more, including more HD. Do you have any pull getting me the rest of my locals for me?
post #283 of 3680
good to hear that the DVI problems were fixed.

can't wait for these boxes to be available in atlanta! i run out of recording space way too often on my 6208's....
post #284 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by VideooooGuy
Although we're working on it, expanded (external) storage is a tough problem. Here's why ...

The content owners (like HBO, NBC, etc.) require Cox to implement Copy Protection mechanisms anytime the corresponding Copy Protection bit is set on content coming into our headends. When the hard drive is inside this set-top, this isn't too tough.

When the hard drive can be externally connected, it requires that we encrypt content exiting the set-top and ensure that the receiving hard drive adheres to copy protection rules. Let your brain start to think through the use cases on that one and you'll be reaching for the B.C. powder pretty quickly.

TiVo doesn't have this kind of problem, since they aren't distributors of content.

Anyway ... Copy Protection is why we don't anticipate ever being able to support external USB hard drives on DVRs. 1394 (FireWire) and DVI/HDMI are OK because there are accepted encryption standards for these interfaces.

Hope this helps.


What am I missing here? The HD tivo through directTv (a content distributor) has a larger hard drive to start with, and you can upgrade that drive to over 70 hours HD. So the argument that Tivo is not a content distributor, while techically correct, doesn't make sense to me since the Tivo is built into the DirectTv receiver just as the PVR function is built into our cable boxes. I would gladly trade Firewire for a LARGE hard drive.

While I have not researched this at all, I am sure that the same concerns over encryption came up when the decision was made to add any Hard Drive to a PVR issued by the cable companies. Wasn't anyone concerned that with the right tools someone could open the box and remove the drive, hack into it, and remove programming? How much harder is it to add encryption to an external drive than what is being written to the drive currently?
post #285 of 3680
the difference may be that the HD DirecTivo has no dvi output, right?
post #286 of 3680
i meant to say no DVI *and* firewire outputs from the directivos......2 things these motorola boxes have.....
post #287 of 3680
OK Videooooguy I'm glad it seems we have a Cox internal person posting!!! I have a VERY important question though, while I find the HD pixellation problem a biggie, almost if not as important of a bug to be fixed are the "guide holes" that I keep seeing! For example, tonight between 7:30 and 4:30 tomorrow morning, my guide says "no data". I've seen this happen all too often with this unit since I got it just over a week ago and it really worries me, because any time this happens my recurring shows don't record. Previous posts indicate that Cox is also aware of this problem but you didn't comment on it, PLEASE tell me this is being looked into, HD recording is one thing, but when a PVR doesn't record your shows whatsoever and the guide has more holes in it than swiss cheese THAT is a very big issue!
Tom
post #288 of 3680
This quote from the OC thread by Steve Wilcox. It may provide some insight into the cause of the serious "Guide Hole" bug affecting many/most. If anyone has insight into how to predicatably reproduce the "Guide Hole" bug it would be very useful for Cox/Motorola to pindown and work on a fix for the problem.
Quote:


I went the unplug route once so far. Worked fine. Didn't lose any scheduled recordings, and came back online within 1-2 minutes.

I think I've been able to make the bug happen by using the Day+ button to go past the latest downloaded schedule. For example, let's say the schedule only goes through next Sunday, and I use Day+ to go to next Monday (seeing only No Data for now). After that, the Monday schedule remains blank, even after the Tuesday schedule has been downloaded. I haven't tested this rigorously yet, but it fits what I've seen so far.
__________________
-- Steve
post #289 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by rdenichilo
What am I missing here? The HD tivo through directTv (a content distributor) has a larger hard drive to start with, and you can upgrade that drive to over 70 hours HD. So the argument that Tivo is not a content distributor, while techically correct, doesn't make sense to me since the Tivo is built into the DirectTv receiver just as the PVR function is built into our cable boxes. I would gladly trade Firewire for a LARGE hard drive.

While I have not researched this at all, I am sure that the same concerns over encryption came up when the decision was made to add any Hard Drive to a PVR issued by the cable companies. Wasn't anyone concerned that with the right tools someone could open the box and remove the drive, hack into it, and remove programming? How much harder is it to add encryption to an external drive than what is being written to the drive currently?


A couple of points... first, you purchase the HD Tivo unit. It's yours. Second, upgrading the HD voids your warranty. Third, any modifications you do are internal to the unit ands do not use external devices. Yes, I know you can extract the files from the Tivo. But again, since you don't own the cable boxes, you can get in a lot more trouble for screwing with them. Which is of course why I'd love to just be able to buy one
post #290 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by rdenichilo
What am I missing here? The HD tivo through directTv (a content distributor) has a larger hard drive to start with, and you can upgrade that drive to over 70 hours HD. So the argument that Tivo is not a content distributor, while techically correct, doesn't make sense to me since the Tivo is built into the DirectTv receiver just as the PVR function is built into our cable boxes. I would gladly trade Firewire for a LARGE hard drive.

While I have not researched this at all, I am sure that the same concerns over encryption came up when the decision was made to add any Hard Drive to a PVR issued by the cable companies. Wasn't anyone concerned that with the right tools someone could open the box and remove the drive, hack into it, and remove programming? How much harder is it to add encryption to an external drive than what is being written to the drive currently?

The drives in Cox set-tops are tied to the box itself with encryption, making it fairly difficult for a novice to hack into it to remove programming (think of it as 'ankle high' protection).

Encryption to an external drive requires both the set-top and the drives to 'agree' on a proven encryption protocol (like 5c for 1394 or HDCP for DVI/DHMI).

And as someone pointed out earlier - this becomes an issue for the content owners when you have both:
1) HD (also called 'high value') digital content
2) Digital outputs (like 1394 or DVI/HDMI)
I don't believe TiVO/DirecTV have to deal with this situation.

Hope this helps,
post #291 of 3680
Out here in the field.


Cox person came by on Friday as I requested.
Showed the problem, and he said they are aware of it and its nation wide.
So far so good.

I told him about the fast forwarding problem that froze the screen and sent it back to the beginning of the show playing it back without sound. This was news to him and he repeated the problem for himself. I said it was only happening with certain channels. He said he would take a different box back to Cox or home to test it to see if there was something wrong with all of the boxes or just mine. He said he would call me. As he was leaving I joked about it being a Black & White problem and the color channels including HD seem to be fine.

Fours hours latter the Cox tech person called me and said he recreated the problem with the Fast Forward only with recording black & White programming and that I was right. He said he reported the problem and would get back to me in a few days. He said no one has ever reported this problem with the box.

My question, as strange as it sounds, has anyone recorded in Black & White and had a problem with Fast Forwarding?
post #292 of 3680
VideooooGuy did you see my question a few posts up about the gaps in the guide, this is a major concern, at least for some of us!
Tom
post #293 of 3680
VideooooGuy, I hope that you are also tracking the zero-length recording problem. I'd had it happen to me (again) just yesterday. After 9.11 was loaded, it happened twice and Cox Tech Support asked me to reset all my recordings again (erase series recordings, then re-enter). It seems to happen when a number of shows/movies are already recorded on the disk.
post #294 of 3680
There is very good news for the HD macroblocking ('pixelization') problem several people are seeing. We have found another workaround that can be performed in the headend. Corporate engineers are to get this fix implemented in field systems in the next week or so!

We're also working on several other irritating problems, including gaps in the guide and zero-length recordings. We hear you!
post #295 of 3680
Woot, I'm liking this box more and more
post #296 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by dresf
One of my fellow HD enthuiasts here in ICT tells me that since Tue or Wed he has not been experiencing the tiling/pixelization anymore FWIW. As I had posted above my display is in the shop and I cannot tell if I am fixed as well.

My "Crystal Ball" also said something to the effect that the DVI fix is tentatively set for 1Q2005.

I watched Order In on INHD2....the perfect program to view tiling....and got none whatsoever. Then I watched a bit of the game show channel which is also another culprit....zilch. So atleast here in Wichita, KS since we haven't recieved any upgrade I'm guessing Cox fixed whatevers going on there end?
post #297 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by VideooooGuy
There is very good news for the HD macroblocking ('pixelization') problem several people are seeing. We have found another workaround that can be performed in the headend. Corporate engineers are to get this fix implemented in field systems in the next week or so!

We're also working on several other irritating problems, including gaps in the guide and zero-length recordings. We hear you!

Thanks as always for passing along this information. Excuse my ignorance but I really have no idea what you are talking about when you say headend and field systems. Could you clarify what you mean by those? Thanks again.
post #298 of 3680
Headend is the equipment on their end I believe.
post #299 of 3680
Quote:


Originally posted by moyekj
Thanks as always for passing along this information. Excuse my ignorance but I really have no idea what you are talking about when you say headend and field systems. Could you clarify what you mean by those? Thanks again.

Sorry .. it's cable TV lingo.

'Headend' means the signal processing equipment at the other end of your cable. It's where Cox receives signals from satellites and ground stations and creates the channel lineup you see in your home. It's also where the video-on-demand and interactive program guide (Pioneer Passport) are located. It's really amazing to see all the technology that goes into creating a cable TV system - there's a LOT more to it than you could ever imagine.

As a guy that works in the Cox Corporate office in Atlanta, 'field systems' refers to our headends across the U.S. For Motorola equipment this includes Orange County, CA; Wichita, KA; Omaha, NE; Rhode Island; CT; and numerous others.
post #300 of 3680
Videooooguy,

Thanks again for the great insider knowledge. I'm a little bit confused on your recent post. When you say the "HD Macroblocking pixellation issue", are you talking about:

a) the issue on HD channels (DVR or non-DVR) that affects certain programs when there's too much fast action/motion or information causing the picture to macroblock due to insufficient bandwidth / poor MPEG compression (very evident on NBC's recent Summer Olympic broadcasts)

-or-

b) the issue specific to HD-DVR 6412 where under certain circumstances an HD channel or recording will get mangled with garbage lines and corrupt video breakup (for example when recording 2 HD channels, watching 2 HD channels and performing DVR functions on one of them, etc.)

In other words were you bringing to our attention a new fix possibly with compression or increased bandwidth on HD programs, or the fact that there's a quicker solution to the one that was being worked on that had to go through testing from Motorola, Pioneer, and COX that would take until the first two weeks of November...

-T
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