New amp is making me grin from ear to ear =) - Page 164

Very true, I didn't calibrate it ever so I guess I screwed up there . I found the 809 numbers (they're similar to the integra system from what I was told), and the 809 seems to be a have a more powerful amplifier in it. Again though, not really sure about the preamp voltage. Unless there is another cheap thing I can get that fixes that, I'd rather get the receiver that will get the most power out of my amplifier.

Another quick question, because my room can get pretty hot at times, and AB amplifiers in receivers run hotter, might it be better to go with the pioneer just to avoid overheating concerns?

Why don't you get dj loudspeakers to go with your pro audio amplifier ? seems like this will solve any issue you had with blowing out tweeters.

From what I've seen from the Service manuals the switchmode receivers use far smaller heat sinks so the active devices heat up in a similar fashion while dissipating far less heat. If you put them in a box with poor ventilation they would heat up the box less, but in a room that is hot but has plenty of ventilation, the device heatup is about the same.

Ok, so pretty much either receiver is going to be fine. I don't know why I'm so hung up on the 809 its killing me though. I already used an onkyo product so now I am comfortable with setting that up and am kind of afraid to switch over. You guys have got me pretty comfortable on just about everything too. I just don't wanna pay 600 for the 809 but it may never hit the 600 level again. If I wait on the 809 I've got 2 weeks to wait but I just am not seeing it happen with no major holidays coming up for sale.
Because I'm not a dj, dj loud speakers will look ridiculous in my home when I graduate in 4 months, they are grotesque looking, etc.

Edit: After some reading, I've decided to wait on the 809. I really didn't like the fact that you couldn't EQ your fronts and surrounds seperately (It's one global setting), on the Pioneer. I'll be picking up the amp I guess and just patiently waiting for a receiver I can use it on. I wish there was a way I could rig it to work now with my current receiver but oh well lol. Really hoping the 809 hits the 500 level or the 818 hits the 600 level.
Edited by tential - 2/13/13 at 5:47pm

Ehhh, I'm not a DJ either and as far as long term goes it wasn't practical.

That said, this, with several kW of Crown and QSC behind it, leads to a good understanding of capability.



Note the Yamaha S215 boxes have long since been replaced with JBL SR4732A..
Edited by whoaru99 - 2/13/13 at 7:31pm

Ya that's a little crazy. I know people talk about the WAF (lol...) and that would be where I draw the line and any other person would too.I don't care if receivers and amps don't look aesthetic. I can hide them in an equipment rack, which actually kind of makes it look aesthetic and high tech. My speakers though, it's really hard to make speakers look unaesthetic in the HT realm. Very few speakers that I've looked at I dislike. Even if they are towering monsters, generally they're still wood finish and look pretty damn good next to a television if it's big enough (my 70 inch isn't doing too bad at the moment). I'm disappointed I didn't pick up the 809 receiver when I wanted to but I'm happy I've learned about the Crown 1500 XLS.

I have no WAF to contend with but, yes, it was just a temporary arrangement/experiment. All that stuff, the speakers that is, has been in the garage for years since a couple days after that picture.

The XLS DriveCore is what everyone should be looking at, not the old series.

http://www.hometheaterequipment.com/mono-stereo-amps-59/crown-audio-xls-drivecore-series-amplifier-official-thread-1319/


And for the folks that keep talking about fan noise. I have 3 XLS DriveCores and I have yet to see (or hear) the fans kick in. I honestly don't see these fans turning on in a HT environment.

I'l purchase one today but I have no way to hook it up at the moment which kind of sucks. I got 2 weeks though of no parties or social events at my house so I won't be using my system much anyway until everything starts back up again. I hope a receiver I actually want goes on sale in those 2 weeks.

I am a novice at the finer points of amplification and despite reading a bunch of this and other threads on the topic of receiver vs separates, I am still in the confused column.

My intended set up (not bought yet) is:

9.2 sound in a medium sized room. Front projection with room treatments for audio. Music is a big part of the room as well as movies.

My current choices for audio is Ascend Acoustic Towers, Horizon center and 170's as surrounds.
I am looking at an Integra 80.3 pre/pro or the corresponding receiver. The receiver is rated at 145 watts (2 channels driven).

My question is from a music/movie perspective with 200-300 watt capable speakers would I be happy with the receiver with unknown actual power to the various speakers under load or with a stand alone power amp like ATI 2000s or Emotiva XPAs?

I realize there is no real "correct" answer here but feed back from those more educated and experienced in audio mechanics is of value to me.

The Ascend Towers are average efficiency speakers with easy impedance curves:




The two 5.25 inch woofers have the following dynamic range per my usual optimistic simulation:

Freq,Hz Max SPL, DB

10 71
20 84
30 91
40 96
50 99
60 103
70 105
80 108
90 110
100 111
110 113
120 115

As high end speakers they should be crossed over to a good subwoofer at 90 Hz.

As I keep pointing out the additional dynamic range that a 300 wpc power amp offers over a 145 watt AVR is barely 3 dB, which is barely audible presuming that you actually need the extra power which is far from being a given.

Yes...I suppose, unless you're considering buying a used XLS series.

I think every power amp I own (which is something on the order of 16), except one, was purchased on the used market.

One of my options is the Integra DTA-70.1 amp at 150 watts per channel (two channels driven).

So in the real world of hearing sound reproduction does it make sense to go with a separate amp or just stay with the receiver or a more modest separate amplifier. Not looking to blast out my walls and I rarely listen to stuff at reference but my understanding was that some "excess" of wattage is needed for the amp to quickly output highly dynamic sound without taxing the amp. Am I off on this? If not, then it would follow that there is some desired amount of "excess" wattage per channel that should be resident in the amp. How much is enough? How much is a waste of money?

Thanks for the replies...I am learning as I go here.

If you are not looking to blast out the walls and generally listen at moderate volumes, as it sounds like you do, the receiver itself is likely plenty.

 

You need 'enough' amplifier power. Anything more than enough is wasted. The tricky bit is deciding what is enough ;)  The amount of amp power you need is a function of various things: the SPLs you want to listen at, the distance you sit from your speakers, the efficiency rating of your speakers being the most significant.  All speaker manufacturers publish the efficiency rating of their speakers - it looks something like 86dB/1w/1m. This means the speaker will play at 86dB if you feed it 1 watt and measure it at 1 metre. For every 3dB you raise the required SPL, you need double the amp power - so if you want to hit peaks of, say, 105dB (the reference for movie sound reproduction), then, in this example, you would need an amp that can deliver about 65 watts. The further you sit from the speakers and the speaker placement in the room (close to walls, in or out of corners etc) also comes into it. The easiest way to determine the amp power you need in your room is to use a calculator like this:

 

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

You will also need to ensure that your chosen speakers can handle the power required to hit the SPL you want. Remember that you need to cater for peaks, not average SPLs, and you can be listening at 85dB average (reasonably loud) but you will need headroom to handle peaks of 105dB in my example. If you do not have the headroom required you will compress the dynamic range of the content (the ratio between the softest and loudest sounds) and/or you will run the amp into clipping. Clipping is potentially dangerous as it can cause your speaker drivers, especially tweeters, to be damaged. Clipping is caused when you ask the amp to deliver more than its rated power. (Rated power is quoted as xxx watts at a given level of distortion).

 

It is safe, and even recommended, that your amp can deliver rather more clean power than your speaker manufacturer specifies as the handling capability of the speaker. This means you avoid the dangers of clipping the amp when trying to hit those peaks and you will not harm your speakers by using an amp with good reserves of power. You will not 'overdrive' the speakers because your ears will readily hear any distortion caused by overdriving and you will turn down the volume accordingly. 

 

Given all of the above, most decent modern AVRs can drive most speakers in most rooms to the levels most people want. The only way to know how much is needed in your specific case is to answer the questions posed above, use the calculator and then decide. If in doubt, err on the side of more power to be on the safe side. Also bear in mind that you may want to change your speakers in the future and you might want to make provision for less efficient designs or 4 ohm designs (some of the lesser AVRs struggle with 4 ohm loads).

 

The thing about a separate amp is that once you have it, it will last for decades. Receivers introduce new features annually, some of which you may want and some which you don't - but if you have a separate amp you can just install it and forget it - changing just the AVR used as a prepro) whenever necessary to gain new features - eg new sound codecs etc.

+1

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate your knowledge and experience. I did the calculation and I am closer to making a decision on the power requirement. I believe a 'true" 200 watts per channel for the front, center and wide speakers will be adequate, I don't need that much in the rears so it looks like two power amps with 5 channels each.

My wallet is voting for the Emotive XPA-5s.....my brain wants the ATI 2000 5 channel with an Emotive XPA-5 for the side and rear surrounds.

Still looking at other amps Crown etc. as options too.

 

200 wpc (all channels driven) is usually more than enough for anyone, so I endorse your decision there. It will also future-proof you to a large extent.

 

Personally, I would go with the XPA-5 if funds allow and use the money saved by not buying the ATI to go towards a better sub or room treatments. You'll not hear any differences between the amps but you will most definitely hear a difference between a really great sub and an average one and between a treated room and an untreated one.  If funds are tight, I'd go with the Crown option. If you use the XPA-5 you can use an AVRs internal amps for rear surrounds, and the rest of the AVR as a prepro (assuming you have one/get one with preouts of course). Audyssey XT32 would also be high on my priority list. That would make my choice an Onkyo 818 I think - amazing value, preouts and XT32, all for 800 bucks or so if you search around.  Whatever you decide to do, you will be making informed decisions now, so you would struggle to go far wrong. 

IMO, get what you want.

Some years back I decided to get a gas grill. I really wanted a Weber grill but I bought a well-rated Sunbeam instead. The Sunbeam worked fine...but I wanted the Weber. Sold the Sunbeam, bought the Weber, never looked back. Glad I did it.

New amp is making me grin for sure hehe..just added my second yammy p2500s. Currently i have one running my mains rc70's. My question is: should i have the second one run the rc10 surrounds or or the center lcr? If the former then i will use the avr to run the center only while the amps handle the other speakers...

Decisions decisions..



Edit: would this question be better asked in the energy owners thread?

I have two amps as well. One is running my left/right. The 2nd is running my center channel (Polk Csi3). My onkyo 3009 is running my surrounds. My surrounds require less power so I just use my AVR for them instead of the center.

Added to what? Is your AV receiver acting as the pre-amp/ processor? I have a P3500S sat unused (bought as bass guitar power amp) and am thinking about using it with an Anthem MRX to power my fronts, or possibly the centre in bridged mode?
How does it sound?

The center- let the AV amp drive the surrounds as more sound goes through the center than the surrounds watching movies (the center is the most important speaker in the system after/ before the sub.. probably )

Au contrair, mon ami The most important speaker(s) are the l and r channels.

I have a pioneer 9040 as an avr. I also have a yammy 667 not being used atm..may trade them places for matching brands hehe the amp really makes these speakers shine tho ill say that first. I noticed the bass is more defined and the all around sound has taken a new life. Not to mention i can crank it louder and it sounds just a great!

But i say hook it up to ur center and see for yourself. Im sure you will notice an improvement for the better. Do u have an spl meter to match the levels with all ur speakers?

Edit: Oops i just checked the yammy..its an A700, not a 667..not a big difference lol
The xtra foot does wonders for the sound tho
Edited by Sousa86 - 2/27/13 at 12:12pm

^ He already has an amp driving the L/R speakers...

Apart from the L, R, center and subwoofer what have the Romans ever done for us?

 

In a HT system the centre channel is the most important. It carried about 80% of all the information in the movie soundtrack and, most importantly, almost all the dialogue.

Ugh, so I'm one of the people getting highly unreasonable buzz. The buzz can be hear from listening position clear as day. What do I do?

I didn't have a buzz at all when powering just from AVR and nothing else.

Currently I have ONE rca cable hooked up, AVR in mono mode, Amp in Y input mode to get audio in both speakers. Just a temporary solution to test the amp while I wait on my new cables/banana plugs. PC is hooked HDMI to receiver, Receiver is hooked HDMI to TV.
I get the buzz no matter what input is selected or what the volume on the AVR is. Buzz is based on gain level on the amplifier.
If I unplug the RCA from the receiver to the pro amp I get no buzz, regardless of gain volume. When putting my ear near to the Pro Amp I do hear noise, dunno what this is though or if it's an issue.

I have a Crown XLS 1500. For reference, I powered my fraternity JBL speakers the JRX series, no hiss at all. This was using the XLR input.

This is bugging the hell out of me what do I do to even start trouble shooting.
Edited by tential - 3/12/13 at 10:04am

Sounds like a ground-loop. If you want to be lazy (and a little less than kosher) use a 3 to 2 prong adapter to plug in your amp. I know, I know... if it's got a ground plug, it should be grounded. But 9 times out of 10, for me, that's a quick and dirty way to get rid of a ground loop.

I'll have to try this when I get home. Hopefully I have one, but I'll add it to my walmart list today.

Am I looking for a cable extender or just a little spade dude. What are the risks? I've heard of potential shock while reading up on this but I wanna know. I'm about to walk to the store now and get this stuff.
Edited by tential - 3/12/13 at 12:06pm

Just take the power cable that came with your crown amp and pull out the ground pin and see if that works. Those cables are cheap and you probably have lots sitting around.