Tampa, FL - HDTV - Page 5

Dan:

Nice drawing, but this is old news. WTSP-DT has ALWAYS been broadcasting on digital 24.

I'm making some antenna adjustments today and, if they work, I'll let you know what I did. Send me a PM with you email address and phone number. No need to clutter the forum with stuff that just relates to you and me.

Hi Ron,

Despite the relabeling of this thread, it was established to share reception experiences from folks in the Sarasota area. So if you wouldn't mind could you please publically share your findings with others living in the area?

Thanks very much.

Larry

Larry:

Sure, but I'm in the middle of the project and will report my results when complete and, hopefully, I have some improvements to report. Should be finished later today.

Sorry Guys,
I have been out of town,


The installer was Al's son I can't remember his name but he was very good. I thought he still worked for him.

The pole is mounted in the ground going up the N side of the house.

I live in the Bee Ridge and 75 area of Sarasota.

I am running a separate coax to the voom receiver which is the only way to go IMHO.

I will be in town for a while again so if you have any other questions just let me know.
GeoffQ

Here's what I did. Nothing elaborate but an improvement.

My previous setup was a large (don't remember how many elements) Radio Shack UHF/VHF antenna in the attic, with a 28db amp. I got the Tampa stations OK, but there were times when I would get drops on the VHF stations - NBC and FOX. Reception of digital channel 40 is horrible and 10 is non-existent with the attic antenna. I, at one time, had a Blonder Tongue UHF antenna for channel 24, aimed at Holiday and amplified, but it was not consistent, so I removed it a few months ago. BTW, I used a Jointenna to combine both antennas down the feedline.

Today, I installed a Winegard Senser GS2200. It's probably the same as the GS2000, but with a production date of 5/04. I installed it outdoors on the same pole I previously had my channel 24 antenna. The height is only 15 feet, but it's in the back of my house, above the pool cage, out in the clear, and not visible, except by my neighbors on my left and right. I also decided to put a Channel Master rotor on the installation, so that I can fine tune the antenna positioning. While the results are not dramatic, the Tampa stations give me a solid good signal with the Winegard antenna. Still having problems with channel 40 (digital 52). I believe that, although they are in Parrish, that they are no where near full power.

Channel 10 (digital 24) is really not much better, no matter where I point the antenna. The improvements are that I now get WUSF (digital 34), and if I swing the antenna around toward Ft. Myers, I can get several of their stations that I previously had not received. There's really no advantage, though, since it duplicates Tampa broadcasts.

My primary receiver is the Hughes HD Tivo. My signal levels for Tampa are around 90. It's through a splitter, a surge protector, yet by eliminating them, the signal is the same. My other receiver, which is not primary, is the Hughes E86. That receiver reports the Tampa stations at 100.

I am not interested in raising my antenna height, but if anyone has any suggestions for improvement, including using some other antenna, since I have a rotor, please share your thoughts.

Dan, for your purposes, if you place the Winegard Senser GS2000 in a good spot, you should get adequate results from Tampa. Forget CBS. We're too far away to get it without a huge antenna.

I get channel 10(24) very well and I get no drops on the VHF channels. Granted my pole is 30ft it is in the back of the house and is too tall for many people to notice. I ask everyone that comes over once they are in the house if they noticed the antenna an no one has yet. You all should try it. It is so tall it is more unnoticeable. It is much better than no reception or in out on others.
GeoffQ

Geoff:

Are you in one of the newer deed restricted communities? Despite what the FCC says you are allowed to do, i.e., number of feet above roof line, I certainly don't want to be the only one in my community with a noticeable antenna. Anything that I have seen in my community is very low profile. Consequently, there's a need to work with the least obvious.

Just wondering. Where's your 30 foot antenna mounted to, and where is it on your property?

Ron,

Congratulations on your new installation! This is really exciting stuff.

According to its promo flyer, the Winegard Sensar III (GS2200) improves on the Sensar II (GS2000) with a redesigned head and a strengthened wing. http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/WC-810.pdf
What surprised me is that the average gain ratings for the new unit are lower than for the Sensar II it replaces. They claim a 12 dB gain for UHF and VHF for the III and 15.5 dB VHF and 19.5 dB UHF for the II. Do you think that more gain from a pre-amp could improve your channel 10 experience? If so, could you swap the GS2200 for a GS1100 (unamplified) and use a Winegard AP8275 to get a 28 dB gain for UHF and VHF?

I'm trying to visualize the mast installation. Is it attached to the pool cage in any way? How much does this installation increase the coax lead distance over your previous attic installation?

Would you please expand on the nature of the difficulty you are experiencing with Channel 10 using the GS2200?

Are you receiving WINK, the CBS affiliate in Ft. Myers?

Ron,

Can you give us examples of the other low profile installations in Turtle Rock? I'm curious about whether your HOA has said anything about your installation or the others you mention.

Dan

Geoff,

Thanks for writing back. How high above your roofline does this 30 foot pole place your Sensar II GS2000?

Thanks,

Dan

Ron, Geoff, Larry and other interested parties,

I sent an email last evening to Derek Justman, Antenna Product Engineer for the Winegard Company. My note follows:

A friend of mine, Ron, recently completed installing a Sensar III
GS2200 on a 15-foot pole next to his home. A second friend, Geoff,
just installed a Sensar II GS2000A on a 30- foot pole next to his
home. I recently purchased, but have not yet installed, a Sensar II
GS2000A, which I am planning to install on a four-foot mast on the
peak of my roof. I estimate that the antenna will be about 19 feet in the air.

We live within a few miles of each other in Sarasota, FL. Our goal is
to receive the Tampa DTV stations. The most difficult station to
receive is 10.1 (digital 24), the CBS affiliate WTSP-DT.

Geoff has reported no problems. He is not using a rotor. Ron is using
a rotor but cannot pull in 10.1. Do you believe the reason for Ron's
difficulty is the height of his mast or the reduced gain of the GS2200
compared to the GS2000A? The average gain for the GS2200 is 12 dB VHF
and UHF while the GS2000A is 15.5 dB VHF and 19.5 dB UHF. How
significant is this difference?

Would Ron be better off with a Sensar II? Could he install an
unamplified GS1100 and fit it with an AP-8275 for 28 dB of UHF and VHF
gain? Might this solve his problem?

Derek's reply came this morning:

"First off all, understand that digital 24 is transmitting at a near polar opposite of the other DTV stations in your area. What may be happening is that the GS2000A that you have may have stronger backlobe reception for 24 than the GS2200. I really do not believe the amp difference is significant. Also, for difficult UHF DTV stations, sometimes the right height of the antenna will make a difference -- when a station is weak, the reception is better on such channels at different heights. In addition, the signal strength varies from one neighborgood to another. Ron may just simply be in a neighborhood where 10.1 coverage is spotty.

To see if this is the case, you can visit a new Web site http://www.checkhd.com/ click "antennas", and submit the address of your friends. Check the reception rating (poor, good, excellent) of 10.1 by clicking on the "light green" color map, since that would be the map of an amplified multidirectional antenna."

I just sent another note off to Derek asking him to comment on the idea of using a GS1100 with an AP8275. I'll keep you posted.

Meanwhile, my installation is on hold until the Samsung SIR-T451 tuner I ordered shows up. It's currently on backorder at Crutchfield.

Dan

Dan, you might want to edit your post to take the comma out of the checkhd link.

Edit completed. Thanks.

Dan:

I suppose that because 10.1(24) is so far away, and doesn't even show on the charts for our zip code, that it's Geoff's luck that he can receive it, and we'll just have to wait for WINK to build their digital station, which I understand is a year or more away.

I checked the chart on the link provided by Winegard, and the reception quality for our area, using the light green chart, are reported fairly accurately. What I mean by that, is that they rate the two VHF stations (8.1 and 13.1) as "poor", yet I get a quality rating of over 90 on my HD Tivo, and 100 on my E86. In fact they are comparable to WEDU, WFTS, and several other UHF stations, reported as "excellent" out of Riverview. On the other hand, when I turn my antenna toward Ft. Myers, I wouldn't characterize them as "excellent", however they are solid. In addition, atmospheric conditions seem to come in to play for Ft. Myers, since night time signal strength is stronger than in the day time.

My antenna pole is on a cement pad, about 5 feet away from the pool cage, and secured with a bracket at the faccia board. The 15 foot height (actually it's probably about 18 feet) clears the pool cage.

As for neighborhood restrictions, etc., our covenants require approval for a satellite dish. I know of no one that has gotten approval. My satellite dish is on the side of my house, shielded by the back of my third car garage, and can't be seen, except by a neighbor on one side. There are so many dishes in my neighborhood, mounted in any place that faces the south west. I've seen them in the front of houses, on roofs, and just about any other imaginable place. As far as antennas, I've only seen a few of them. But I'm certain that there are others, not noticeable from the street, like mine. It's just that I've only noticed a few, and none very high. So while that FCC says you can go, I believe, some distance above your roof line, I have yet to see it in my neighborhood.

How about in Village Walk? What have you observed?

VillageWalk covenants require approval for all antennas. This doesn't mean that they are restricted. I received approval for a satellite dish when I first moved in. At the time, I was planning to reinstall DISH service from my prior home. The approval I received required the dish to be mounted on a pole in a flower bed with plant material forming a shield so the antenna wouldn't be very visible.

There are not a lot of satellite dishes here and I don't believe I've seen a single antenna. Most of the satellite installations I've seen are at variance with approved installation instructions. One very visible installation on the side of a house has been there for a year, so the HOA hasn't exactly been falling over itself to police its regulations.

On Monday I delivered my written request to install a Sensar II on a four foot mast to the peak of my roof. It will be situated on the northern end of the ridge. It will be barely visible from the front of the house. My northerly neighbors will see it, but they are buffered by a small lake. The initial reaction I've received to the petition is surprise at how small the antenna is. I think most expectations is to see elements sticking out all over a ten foot boom. The letter to the HOA explained my desire to receive DTV and yet preserve the good taste and harmony of the community. The committee meets again on November 2. Wish me luck!

Dan

Here is Derek's response:

"An amplifier is only intended to offset signal loss from the antenna to the tuner through cables and splitters. It cannot extend the range of the antenna, nor will it improve the picture quality that the antenna collects. So unless you are 50 miles away from all transmitters and running 200 feet of cable, the AP-8275 is not worth it; in addition, that amp can only take less antenna signal than the amp used in the GS2000, so using the AP-8275, even with the nonamplified antenna in areas like yours may only make reception worse."

What kind of roof design do you have and what is your roofing material? Are they tiles?

I'm having difficulty visualizing what you are trying to do. If you have a hip roof, as I do, there are various peaks. Are you contemplating installing it at the highest peak, and where is that peak located? How would you route the cable into your house?

You may have mentioned this in a prior post, but what elevation off the ground do you anticipate to achieve with you 4 foot pole at the peak? It seems like elevation is the key for getting 10.1 (24).

I've given up on receiving a reliable signal from them. I'm going to rely on whichever comes first -- WINK or DirecTV's delivery of local HD stations in 2005 or whenever. At least I have all the other networks coming in with a solid signal. For instance, I've been watching the MLB playoffs on 13.1 with my new antenna, with not a single loss of signal. That had not been the case with my attic antenna, since 13.1 is broadcast, digitally, on a VHF channel, which antenna web defines as "poor".

That makes alot of sense, because my attic attenna was getting a marginal signal by being blocked from roofing tiles and other attic and roof material. So my 28db amp was just amplifing a lousy signal. In fact, I had to put an attenuator on the line to my HD Tivo, because the amp was overloading the tuner.

Ron,

I also have a hip roof. A hip roof, as I understand its definition, is a gable roof with the ends brought together at the same pitch as the rest of the roof. The resulting roof peak is really a ridge that runs along the top center of the house. My home, and its roof ridge, is oriented along the north-south compass line. I plan to have the antenna mounted as far north as practicable on the ridge. Since the front of my home faces south, the antenna and mast shouldn't be very visible from the front street. I think a viewer will see the antenna itself, but very little of the mast, depending on where they are standing.

The roofing material is barreled concrete tile. I'll be relying on a professional to make the installation. My expectation is that the installer will mount the mast on the ridge using a carrot shaped (^) plate drilled through a tile and underlying wood. It will be fastened to a supporting bracket inside the roof. Now, it's entirely possible that the installer will recommend a different approach.

The downlead would be fished through a roofing tile into the attic. There is a tube for wiring that runs down the inside of the wall behind my television and tuner. I've used it in the past to run speaker wiring for a Dolby 6.1 setup in the family room. It will serve to bring the downlead to the Belkin surge suppressor and then to the tuner.

I estimate that the total elevation will be 20.5 feet.

The front of my house faces the Southeast, hence I had to place my antenna in the rear of the house.

Your installation, then, will be similar to mine, as far as elevation. And since we are in the same area of town, our reception results should be equal, with the exception of one tuner's ability vs. another. My E86 picks up weak signals better than my HD Tivo.

I once was contacted by someone else in Village Walk who asked about my attic installation. He told me he was reluctant to put up any antenna in his rear because with the village concept, neighbors can walk in the rear of your property.

I have to admit that I've never been through your community so can't visualize what that person was trying to describe.

Ron,

I'll be interested to see what kind of sensitivity my tuner has.

Most of the homes in VillageWalk are not on the "Walk" that weaves its way along the shorelines of the manmade lakes and ponds here. The ones that do have the walk behing their pool cages. My neighbor is on the Walk and it has its advantages and disadvantages. On the positive side, there is a good water view. On the negative side, privacy on the lanai or in the pool is limited when neighbors and strangers stroll by. Having the Walk behing the cage also limits the size of the backyard. It effectively ends just beyond the planting bed behind the pool cage. This is probably what your other contact here was referring to.

Our home backs to a lake, but the Walk does not run along its shore. There is probably 15 feet from the back of the cage to the waterline.

Dan

I live in Englewood Isles(north end of Englewood) Will be getting a Mits 62725 shortly and am deciding on a set up for OTA reception and would welcome comment.

Seems the best thing is to get FOX, NBC, PBS, and ABC out of Fort Myers and try to get CBS from Tampa until WINK finally gets on air. Has anyone in south Venice or north Englewood been successful in getting a adequate signal from WTSP(CBS) Tampa? Of course I can always hook up with cable for CBS until WINK gets on air.

Planning for now to get a Channel Master CM3023 UHF antenna. Realize that I have to add a VHF capability when WINK gets going. Comments welcome on this choice also.

As you can read in this thread, CBS from Holiday is real tough to get, unless you have height and a large antenna. At least that's our experience in South Sarasota, so I would imagine Englewood will be even tougher. You just have to try it and see what you get.

Good luck.

You may all know about this but since some mention has been made about deed restrictions it might be good if you are faced with that problem to read this FCC document which contains detailed rules about OTA and satellite antennas. http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

While there are some exceptions and limits, in part the FCC rule says:

"The rule prohibits most restrictions that: (1) unreasonably delay or prevent installation, maintenance or use; (2) unreasonably increase the cost of installation, maintenance or use; or (3) preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal."

rjg41,

Welcome back to the forum. Why did you choose a Mitsubishi tuner? As far as reaching Tampa, what does checkhd.com say about your chances? How high will you be mounting your antenna?

Dan

DJ, you might have me confused with someone else as I have been primarily in a monitoring mode and have posted almost nothing up till now.

Checkhd.com indicates I am out of luck. No big deal, I'll just go with cable for CBS until WINK gets on line. It gets me a few extra cable channels so I am not just paying for CBS.

As for the Mitsubishi, the tuner is an intergrated tuner in the new DLP 62725 set.

Tomorrow is the day. UPS will be delivering the Samsung SIR-T451 I ordered. The original order was placed with Crutchfield. Fine folks but without any stock on this item until the end of the year. Duh. I waited two weeks, called for status and got the bad news. After getting the usual runaround at Circuit City (we have it, we don't, we have it....) I placed an order with JR.com in NYC. No fooling' around here. The order was filled the day I placed it. Granted, I had to pay an extra $9 for UPS delivery but I'm not complaining.

I'm curious to see what this fifth generation tuner can do. First, I'll hook it up to the cable feed (standard Comcast analog service) to see if there is any bleed-over and I can snag WPST-DT (this tuner is QAM capable). Digital service customers get this station if they subscribe to the HDTV package. I'll let you know what happens.

Secondly, I'm waiting on the ruling from the VillageWalk HOA on my request to install a roof antenna. They meet on 11/2. I suggested that my Winegard Sensar II be considered as the standard for a DTV installation in the development. It's small, not "antenna-looking," and has been proven to pull in even difficult stations if mounted four feet above the roof here in Sarasota.

Wish me luck.

Dan

Dan, how did you make out with your HOA?

If they turned you down or gave you unreasonable requirements I hope for their sake they consulted with their attorney. A few months back our HOA tried to get someone to remove a DTV dish. Since I am a board member I brought them a copy of the FCC web pages and suggested they need to investigate the matter further before trying to do anything. Apparently a letter had already been written to the homeowner. Our president consulted our attorney and at the next meeting announced that he had sent another letter to the homeowner apologizing for the first letter.

Further, you probably already know, but in Florida, in a dispute with a HOA it is my understanding that the losing party pays everybody's attorneys' fees. A risk for you but in this case I think a bigger risk for them.

rjg41,

I won't hear from the HOA until after November 2 when they next meet.

I do appreciate the information about what happened with your HOA. It's always good to have knowledge about how other HOAs approach aerial antenna/satellite installations. You certainly got my attention on potential legal exposure. Right now I'll just hope that the HOA doesn't turn me down.

I installed the tuner yesterday when it arrived and hooked-it up to the cable system. A bunch of channels popped-in that have no great value for me... ESPN News, Nickelodeon, and a movie channel among them. What I was hoping for was CBS Tampa, but the tuner seemed to be blocked from going beyond channel 106. WTSP is on 182.

Tonight I ran a trial with the Sensar II for OTA reception. I supported the plastic body of the antenna across the backs of two chairs out by the pool, about three feet off the deck. The first test was without the preamp. Nothing. When I connected the preamp it pulled in WXPX (PAX), WEDU (PBS), WWOR (Ind.), WFLA (NBC), WTOG (Ind.), WTTA (WB) and WFTS (ABC). FOX HD was pixelated and there was no sign of WWSB, the local ABC station, WUSF or WTSP (CBS). FOX came in well when I elevated the antenna. I was really impressed. Imagine what I might get with this thing on the roof!

I should hear from the HOA by the end of next week. If I'm lucky, I'll have the antenna mounted (in some fashion) in two weeks.

Dan

Hi Guys,
Sorry for the delay in responding,

Ron,
I live in Colonial Gables so not new.

Dan,
It is about 20 ft above the roof line which IMHO the higher the better so no one will notice it. People's eye's just don't go up that far.

When I was going to install my antenna I talked with the guys at High Tech a lot and I was only wanting to install a 20ft pole but they talked me into the 30ft one saying that the higher the antenna sat the better reception was. Being as I really wanted Ch. 10 for football and PrimeTime Shows I said OK. I am so glad I did after hearing the problems that you all are having. All my NFL in HDTV this season and the end of last has been FANTASTIC.

I originally tested my reception with a Terk 55 just moving around my house and all I could receive was 8 and 28, which was fine to show the wife what we could have with a better set up.

My pole is along the side of the house as my driveway and you look right at it as you drive in, and still nobody notices the antenna because it is so high up so two positives better reception and more out of site. The higher the better IMHO.

HTH just my .02 cents.

GeoffQ

P.S. Get off the pot and put up a high pole everyone will have one soon as they are the only way to get good reception of the channels we all want. Cable will never catch up, and OTA for the networks is better than cable transmission of them anyway. You will just be the first to have it as you are with the rest of your Home Theatre. You will thank me later while you are watching that wonderful HDTV.