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OFFICIAL Sony HS50(51) thread - Page 2

post #31 of 5686
Here's a first hand report of the HS51 thanks to RAN:

"I would summarize my day by calling it "LCD is back". The headline refers to the new Sony HS51. This thing rocks! The sony has a dynamic Iris which does a wonderful job in bringing out very rich and dark blacks. The contrast spec on this is 6000:1 and it seemed on par with my Sharp 12K. Sony was using a 100" Fire-Hawk screen for some reason. I was under the impression that a 1.3 would have done a better job for brightness as Blacks were terrific with out the help of the screen. LCD's other big problem, screen door, is still an issue and the fact that this has less pixels than the HT series only contributes to it. Some forum members who have seen this and spoken to me about it commented on the problem of the SD though for me it wasn't such a big problem."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=444810
post #32 of 5686
The funny thing is that the PJ should have a (depending on the steps of the iris) somewhat non-linear 'response': For usual digitals, full white has always the same brightness, regardless if 10%, 20% or 100% of the screen shown are white and the rest black. For this PJ this can no longer be the case (if the auto-iris is active):10% peak white and 100% peak white cannot have identical brightness (note objective brighhness not perceived subjective...). But is 10% darker than 100% when the rest of the screen is black, because APL is lower?

Most probably it won't matter anyway but I find it interesting.

--Peter
post #33 of 5686
Sony claims they use propietary panels. Let´s see if as in the past they don´t show any Vertical Banding effect.

It will be also interesting that their adjustment software include shading adjustment.

Can anybody confirm those extremes?

Nacho.
post #34 of 5686
Here is the text of Sony's press release at CEDIA for the HS51:

SONY UNVEILS 3LCD HIGH-CONTRAST CINEZA PROJECTOR

New Model has up to 6000:1 Contrast Ratio

INDIANAPOLIS (CEDIA, BOOTH #330), Sept. 9, 2004 - As consumer demand for home theater equipment expands, Sony Electronics has developed the next-generation Cineza® front projector equipped with the latest 3LCD panel.

The new VPL-HS51 model is equipped with an advanced iris function, enabling the projector to dynamically adjust the video image according to the level of the input signal. This results in high contrast ratio of up to 6000:1, along with reproduction of the most subtle details. The HS51 also incorporates three proprietary 720p LCD panels that provide 2,764,800 pixel resolution (1280x720) optimized for HD video input.

"Consumers have come to expect more from home entertainment technology and want a projector that stands apart from what is used in the office," said Mike Fidler, senior vice president of Sony Electronics' Home Products Division. "The HS51 is a powerful projector that will accurately reproduce DVD and high definition sources with high brightness and full contrast."

Easy to Use Features

The new model is ideal for home applications thanks to its versatile cabinet, lightweight design and easy-to-use features. Picture position (both horizontal and vertical) can be easily adjusted with the lens shift function, which expands the projector's placement and installation options without distorting image quality.

An All Range Crisp Focus (ARC-F) lens and Real Color Processor (RCP) further enhances colors and images. The color of each hue can be adjusted independently for a customized picture. The 1.6x zoom lens allows for a short throw distance, with the option to project on screen sizes of 40- to 200 inches.

An advanced 12-bit panel driver is included for high color graduation. It also has a new HD I/P converter that improves not only NTSC video conversion but high-definition signals as well. Additionally, the HS51 model's unique fan design generates a low level of noise for extremely quite operation.

Numerous inputs are also provided, including an HDMI interface that allows copy-protected, high-definition video content to be delivered from a DVI/HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) compatible set-top box.

The VPL-HS51 is also supplied with Image Director 2 software, enabling gamma adjustment via a PC connector. Image Director 2 works in conjunction with Sony's Real Color Processing (RCP) for precision picture adjustment.

Finally, VPL-HS51 is equipped with an Ethernet connector for complete AV system integration via IP Control Protocol.

The new projector will be available in October for about $3,500.
post #35 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by PBonn
I wouldn't worry about the loss in resolution, based on my comparisons using the HD Net test patterns, output by the HD TIVO connected by DVI to both a Samsung 720p DLP RP and the Sony HS-20, at both 720p and 1080i.
Horizontal resolution is basically the same on both systems at either 720p or 1080i. Vertical resolution actually worsens using 1080i!

Fill factor may be another issue, though. By defocussing my HS-20, I can't detect SDE at 1.5 screen width, and I have confirmed no loss of resolution using the HD Net test pattern.

Paul


Why would Sony take a step back-words in resolution... this makes no sense to me but yet there must be a reason??
Any one care to elaborate?
Still... I am looking forward to all the opinions of this PJ.


Craig
post #36 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by suffolk112000
Why would Sony take a step back-words in resolution... this makes no sense to me but yet there must be a reason??
Any one care to elaborate?
Still... I am looking forward to all the opinions of this PJ.


Craig

If Sony reads this forum they're probably pulling their hair out right about now.

One of the big complaints about the HS20 was the goofy WXGA resolution. So, they go to 720p so they don't have to scale 720p anymore and people are complaining about the decrease in resolution.

I guess you just can't win.
post #37 of 5686
I'd really like to know if the EDID on the HS51 is bad like on the HS20... considering that this is Sony I'll be they messed it up again.
post #38 of 5686
In the context of the automated iris discussion I would like to propose two new terms for the rating of contrast.

1. Cumulative Contract which measures contrast over a time period long enough to account for modulation of the auto iris. This by the way subverts the intent of the director by altering the intended ratio of bright to dark scenes.

2. Instantaneous Contrast which would determine the overall contrast within a still picture. In other words, if an image were half black and white and unchanging, the iris could not modulate, and the Instantaneous Contrast ratio would be much lower-- the ratio of the panels themselves.
post #39 of 5686
Truly sad that Sony has decreased resolution. In PC gaming it has been a priviledge to use full 1024x768 resolution without scaling. Games that give the option for 1280x720 are very few. It would have been wiser to include a driver for 1366x768 resolution - so people could have dumped the Powerstip which is a pain (if you update the graphic card driver you need to readjust the resolution).
post #40 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by lee eiseman
This by the way subverts the intent of the director by altering the intended ratio of bright to dark scenes.

No it doesn't.

Say a dark scene has a maximum brightness of 25% of the projectors capability. A normal projector leaves the light alone and using only the bottom 25% of the panels capability to product the scene

Now the Sony can reduce the output from the light by 75% and then use the full capability of the panel. The brightest objects in the scene are still the same brightness as the other projector, but the blacks are several times darker.
post #41 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by JPinTO
Here's a first hand report of the HS51 thanks to RAN:

"I would summarize my day by calling it "LCD is back". The headline refers to the new Sony HS51. This thing rocks! The sony has a dynamic Iris which does a wonderful job in bringing out very rich and dark blacks. The contrast spec on this is 6000:1 and it seemed on par with my Sharp 12K. Sony was using a 100" Fire-Hawk screen for some reason. I was under the impression that a 1.3 would have done a better job for brightness as Blacks were terrific with out the help of the screen. LCD's other big problem, screen door, is still an issue and the fact that this has less pixels than the HT series only contributes to it. Some forum members who have seen this and spoken to me about it commented on the problem of the SD though for me it wasn't such a big problem."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=444810

I would say LCD continues to stay in the game by offering high resolution at an affordable price. I saw the HS51 at Cedia and it was ordinary and typical and certainly no match for the DLP projectors displayed. Screendoor is still an issue for this projector. It does not display the rich colors and the lush contrast that were displayed by the DLPs.
post #42 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by leckian
I would say LCD continues to stay in the game by offering high resolution at an affordable price. I saw the HS51 at Cedia and it was ordinary and typical and certainly no match for the DLP projectors displayed. Screendoor is still an issue for this projector. It does not display the rich colors and the lush contrast that were displayed by the DLPs.

Interesting comment about the colors, a typicaly strong suit of LCD. The prices are finally dropping on the HD2+ with Sharps 2000, MSRP $4500.
post #43 of 5686
Its opposing views like these here that makes you go mental. You have to see everything for yourself. Who can you trust?
post #44 of 5686
The prices are dropping on the DLPs but you can get a 720p LCD for less than 2K which is a great deal.
post #45 of 5686
No that's not necessarily true, Stereodude, and BTW how can you be so sure that they will do exactly that? In your example it coudl fit fine, but there are a lot more sceneries where you could not work that simplistic. I assume that they will do something very similar to Panasonic, which means they will adjust the iris per frame, or frame groups, and then apply some sort of gamma correction per frame if necessary (that's what Panasonic does) to "avoid a dim and dull picture". So the objective brightness of any given point is now also related to APL. That means that the luminace distribution per frame might be very well changed, if for example parts of the picture are already 0IRE and 100IRE...

Look at Panasonics example. Black sky, earth in front and stars in the background: Space will be likely 0IRE, stars should be 100IRE and earth somewhere in the lower 20th. If the auto-iris mode chooses the smallest iris position to maximise the black of space, you cannot make the stars any brighter, because intra-panel-CR is already maximal. So if you make earth brighter (via gamma correction) to avoid a dim picture, you will change the luminace distribution of the frame. Definitely should the scene look different on a CRT which has room for deep blacks and bright stars. Most probably nobody will notice that in this example, but I can imagine a few scenes where you WOULD notice it. But luckily not many movies include such scenes. The following is just an example (!): Imagine a white square, first pixel-sized, on a totally black background, becoming larger and larger till it fills the complete screen... This will certainly lead to visible brightness changes of the black background and the white square when auto iris function is used...

--Peter
post #46 of 5686
Quote:


Why would Sony take a step back-words in resolution... this makes no sense to me but yet there must be a reason??

For a home-theater projector (as opposed to a computer-presentation projector), it makes much more sense to have a resolution that exactly matches one of the standard HDTV broadcast resolutions (720p). And it's much easier (and cleaner) to scale 1080 lines down to 720 than to 768.
post #47 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by Ohlson
Its opposing views like these here that makes you go mental. You have to see everything for yourself. Who can you trust?

IMHO
I discount people who have pre conceived biases.
I give more weight to people who are more experienced and have been right in the past.
I give more weight to people who who own good pj and can compare the image to their device.

Remember the Qualia saga.
post #48 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Remember the Qualia saga.

Yeah, what a piece of crap!
post #49 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by leckian
I would say LCD continues to stay in the game by offering high resolution at an affordable price. I saw the HS51 at Cedia and it was ordinary and typical and certainly no match for the DLP projectors displayed. Screendoor is still an issue for this projector. It does not display the rich colors and the lush contrast that were displayed by the DLPs.

I think we know where to file your opinion...

DLP bias getting in the way?
post #50 of 5686
A good EDID will be a determining factor as to whether this gets considered for my HT.

Later,
Bill
post #51 of 5686
So far I count about 5 to 1, pros vs cons. Still early yet but Rogo and Ran offer pretty good reviews and I think they are pretty solid contributors on the >3500 forum.
post #52 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by Stereodude
I think we know where to file your opinion...

DLP bias getting in the way?

The concensus is that DLP is superior than LCD for HT. There is not 1 high end LCD HT projector. It just so happens I have 720p DLP tastes but a 720p LCD budget and am very happy with my PTL-500U.
post #53 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by leckian
The concensus is that DLP is superior than LCD for HT. There is not 1 high end LCD HT projector. It just so happens I have 720p DLP tastes but a 720p LCD budget and am very happy with my PTL-500U.

What you meant to say is that the consensus is that DLP has a better CR than LCD. You also meant to say that there are no expensive LCD HT projectors. Don't mistake expense for "high end". The only real problem with LCD has been the CR. They (LCD) have better colors than the single chip DLPs. From other reports it seems the HS51 doesn't have VB, and is near the CR of a good HD2+ DLP (Sharp 12k). So, the only problem left is the screendoor. MLA and a little defocus will take care of that.

IMHO LCOS and LCD are going to put the squeeze on DLP, unless TI gets the cost down on 3 chip units.
post #54 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by leckian
The concensus is that DLP is superior than LCD for HT. There is not 1 high end LCD HT projector. It just so happens I have 720p DLP tastes but a 720p LCD budget and am very happy with my PTL-500U.

leckian here is a post from someone who owns a Sharp 12k, arguably the finest 720p dlp on the planet, (only the Marantz guys could argue!)

Ran Sharp 12k owner said
"That pretty much sums it up for me. I came in looking for a replacement for my 12K and I may stick around to see if Sharp has anything new come CES or perhaps ¡§downgrade¡¨ to the HS51 and sit tight for a change in resolution."

carlton Bale 12S1 owner said
"I was also very impressed with the Sony HS51. I stood in the very back of the viewing room and did not notice any screen door. I thought the black levels and contrast were better than my Marantz VP-12S1 (720P HD1 DLP) projector. I don't have rainbow issues so I've been a fan of DLP because of the deeper blacks and better contrast. However, at a list price of $3500 and with the horizontal and vertical lens shift feature, I'm thinking this may be my next projector. Scaling of 480i material may be it's weakness though.
"
Rogo said
"I don't think the HS51 has the CR of a 12K, but I was surprised at how relatively close it might have been.

The ANSI is better on the 12K (and DLP in general), but the HS51 is impressive nevertheless.
"
post #55 of 5686
The concensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT. If someone does not agree that is ok with me. DLP has better contrast and as LCD improves so will DLP so there will always be a gap. Additionally DLP produces more accurate gray scale and has superior fill factor. Six segment color wheels produce just as good color if not better than LCD. Additionally LCD suffers from gradual picture quality loss due to organic deterioration. Over time the organic material in them degrades due to the exposure to heat/light resulting in a decreasing ability to block light and degradation of black level.
post #56 of 5686
For some it would seem the HS51 may not be as versitile as the HS20... In this early report the HS51 didn't have a DVI input... that would be a big negative for me if production models don't have one. I can see why a 1280x720 may be attractive to many but when using an HTPC the extra resolution availble with the HS20 can in some instances be useful. While I use 1280x720 resolution with my HS20 I do like having the extra available for some applications...

Quote:


A good EDID will be a determining factor as to whether this gets considered for my HT.

Later,
Bill

I have to agree completely as I'm a NVidia card owner. My guess is this lack of a DVI input is probably just the case for the demonstration unit but if it isn't available on the production models the EDID bug won't be nearly the issue...
post #57 of 5686
Quote:


Yes, I understand this. My only question is... "How dim will it look?" I don't care how often it happens. I just want to know if you get that... "Hey.... did my bulb just lose half its brightness" kind of feeling.

You have to understand how the eye works. What happens if you close or open the lights in a room. As soon as you close them everything goes black until your iris adjusts, the opposite is true when the opposite happens (you go blinded and it takes some time to see the details in the brightness. What happens is the eye does not have instantaneous contrast perception, but the iris adjusts the amount of light that goes through so that we see the most detail for any amount of brightness. If this works, then it is doing the opposite, so white on a black scene would look white and black on a white scene should look black
post #58 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by leckian
The concensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT. If someone does not agree that is ok with me. DLP has better contrast and as LCD improves so will DLP so there will always be a gap. Additionally DLP produces more accurate gray scale and has superior fill factor. Six segemnt color wheels produce jsut as good color if not better than LCD. Additionally LCD suffers from gradual picture quality loss due to organic deterioration. Over time the organic material in them degrades due to the exposure to heat/light resulting in a decreasing ability to block light and degradation of black level.

It looks like the other CEDIA attendants, some themselves top line dlp owners, saw the quality of the HS51s image, you say "the consensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT"
post #59 of 5686
Quote:


The concensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT. If someone does not agree that is ok with me. DLP has better contrast and as LCD improves so will DLP so there will always be a gap. Additionally DLP produces more accurate gray scale and has superior fill factor.


DLP has had better CR and blacks, but not better greyscale, shadow detail has always been much better for LCD and LCoS. I don't know if this has brought the LCD to the level of top DLP, but since others compare it to top of the line DLPs it does mean that it definetly competes with the cheaper DLPs that is the area we are comparing. Now will someone make a DLP on steroids that widens the gap again? maybe, but sayng just because LCD managed to make an affordable projector that has jumped leaps and bounds does not mean that DLP will make the same (but does not mean it won't either)
post #60 of 5686
Hey Guys,

I think I should drop in seeing I'm being often quoted on this post.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into an argument with people thinking the HS 51 was not that hot. I will however offer this for your consideration. For the last 4-5 years I had these following projectors: Sony 10HT, Sharp 9K, Sim 300+, Sharp 10K and now the Sharp 12K. I think I have quite the experience when it comes to checking out a DLP picture. I should also mention that after upgrading my Sony 10HT to the Sharp 9K I never bothered to try out any new LCD's.
The HS-51 in my eyes and based upon the numerous demos I attended in the last couple of days is a completely different story. I would say that if it had a price tag of $10K I would easily see it as my next projector. psychologically it's hard for me to believe that this equals and in some ways outperforms my 12K. For that reason alone I'll probably check it out prior to swapping it with my 12K.

The HS 51 had what I call a dynamic picture which was partly due to very good blacks, terrific contrast and adequate brightness. Sure, perhaps if you put the HS51 side by side with my 12K the latter will have a lower light reading while in 0IRE field, but its picture is not as exciting, at least to my eyes.

Screen door is an issue, but this was such a small room it couldn't simulate a true HT environment. I guess that if you stood a little further this would become a non issue.

One AVS guy, which I'm not going to mention his name asked the Sony rep:How come they are selling the HS51 for less than the Qualia? Obviously this was a joke, but you know what they say about the truth element found in every joke.

This is a sensational piece regardless of its price and it will sell like hot cakes.

Ran
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