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OFFICIAL Sony HS50(51) thread - Page 3

post #61 of 5686
Ran, I for one appreciate you taking the time to post. I don't think anyone doubts what you are posting
post #62 of 5686
Ran
Sony is proberbly reserving the $10k to $15k price point for their SXRD (non Qualia branded) FP. They just announced a 70" XBR RPTV using 1920x1080 SXRD panels for "under $10k"

A 1920x1080 SXRD based fp using the HS51's dynamic iris may be the stepup from the Sharp 12k you are looking for.

Thanks for the CEDIA reports, and safe trip back home!
post #63 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by leckian
The concensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT. If someone does not agree that is ok with me. DLP has better contrast and as LCD improves so will DLP so there will always be a gap. Additionally DLP produces more accurate gray scale and has superior fill factor. Six segment color wheels produce just as good color if not better than LCD. Additionally LCD suffers from gradual picture quality loss due to organic deterioration. Over time the organic material in them degrades due to the exposure to heat/light resulting in a decreasing ability to block light and degradation of black level.

FANBOY AHOY!

or should it be man overboard???
post #64 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by AnthonyP
DLP has had better CR and blacks, but not better greyscale, shadow detail has always been much better for LCD and LCoS.

I would agree with the comment above in relation to LCOS vs. DLP but not LCD vs. DLP. In my opinion, DLP has considerably better shadow detail than LCDs. The same can be said, LCOS has considerably better shadow detail than DLPs. As you correctly pointed out, CR and shadow detail should be critiqued separately. On all LCD PJs I've viewed so far, dark scenes usually end up in a black blob when compared to DLP or LCOS. That's my experience anyway...
-Matt
post #65 of 5686
Thanks Ran, I am looking forward for a demo of the new Sony HS51. BTW did anyone ask if Sony intends to include this dynamical iris into other units?

--Peter
post #66 of 5686
Before we jump all over Leckian here for stating his opinion...lets not kid ourselves about LCDs... they do have problems. I own a Panasonic L300u (AE300) and while I love it to death there are some things I'd like to fix.

Contrast Ratio -- My black levels and shadow detail are ok but I would love better. All reports of the HS51 lead to this aspect being vastly improved. GREAT

Screen Door -- Its easy to say "just defocus" but, realistically, the technology lags both DLP and LCOS in fill factor. Some are more susceptible than others (just like rainbows) but we don't need to pretend it isn't an issue. For the record, I can see screendoor even on 720p DLPs at 1.5x.

Vertical Banding -- The Epson panels definitely have it, I can prove it with my PJ. Luckily this doesn't bother me too much... but I do notice it from time to time. How the Sony fairs.... it hasn't really been reported yet but it looks positive.

Fixed Pattern Noise -- I got that too Also an inherent problem of LCD. VB and FPN can be adjusted on LCOS via software like Dillard so it is correctable. Jury is still out on the Sony, hopefully their Image Director 2 software has adjustments for these issues...

Color Uniformity/Panel Degradation -- Everyone blasted the TI report as being biased which stating DLPs last longer than LCDs, imagine that.... but you know what, they were right in my case. I've only owned my PJ 1.5 years now. It started out great (confirmed through testing with a white field on Avia) but about 6 months ago I've developed a yellow patch in the upper right and a really obvious red patch covering my whole lower left. Believe me IT SUCKS. Granted, most people don't really notice it but I see it every time I watch a movie. Every time! This one pissed me off bad and almost had me saying goodbye to LCD forever.

Anyway, I'm still an LCD owner and I wouldn't object to another one if they can make some serious in roads to some of the problems above. The fact of the matter is every technology has issues, they just might not be "your" issues. Just because someone prefers DLP images to LCD doesn't mean they are a FANBOY as Stereodude so eloquently put it. They might just find the above problems too objectionable to seriously consider them. How many LCD fanboys scream RAINBOW at any given opportunity
-Matt

P.S. I'm a technology slut. I'll use anything that'll give me a great image at a good price (or maybe I'm a cheap slut then!).
post #67 of 5686
Please do NOT turn this thread into a DLP vs. LCD bashfest - what a total waste. You like DLP, fine, happy for you. You like LCD, fine, happy for you. I've used both and am looking for an LCD so that's why I'm here. I couldn't give a rat's ass about some lamely defined "consensus."

If you love DLP and are not interested in this projector, then how about stop reading this thread and post in another, eh?
post #68 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by PAP
Please do NOT turn this thread into a DLP vs. LCD bashfest - what a total waste.

THANK YOU !! THANK YOU !!! THANK YOU!!!!
I'm interested in this thread to stay on topic, which is peoples impressions and experiences with the new HS-51.
Greg
post #69 of 5686
So anyone other than Cousin's taking orders yet? Anyone heard any ship dates?
post #70 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by leckian
The concensus is that DLP is better than LCD for HT. If someone does not agree that is ok with me. DLP has better contrast and as LCD improves so will DLP so there will always be a gap. Additionally DLP produces more accurate gray scale and has superior fill factor. Six segment color wheels produce just as good color if not better than LCD. Additionally LCD suffers from gradual picture quality loss due to organic deterioration. Over time the organic material in them degrades due to the exposure to heat/light resulting in a decreasing ability to block light and degradation of black level.


Buyers remorse setting in? You could have saved 9k, but of course you will never admit it and will just keep bashing LCDs in an attempt to convince yourself you didnt waste your money. If you have nothing to say besides LCD isn't as good as your overpriced DLP go do it in another thread.
post #71 of 5686
mpjohnst
The issue with leckian is not that LCD have deficiencies. His comments suggests that his perceptions of LCD prevented him from "seeing" the HS51, unlike some of the other reviewers.

Utopia
leckian has stated that he is a panny 500 owner :-)
post #72 of 5686
We all want to know to what degree this projector is an improvement over what we had. I'm interested because I want to buy one. I want to know how the HS-51 performs!!

So far, the closest thing we have is Ran's report.
Leckian's report is obviously biased and worthless. It's like asking a Red Sox fan who his favorite Yankee is.

Gus
post #73 of 5686
HoustonHoyaFan-
I understand what you are saying but I'm just defending Leckian a bit (a long standing and contributing member). Just because he didn't "see" what we all wanted him to doesn't make his opinion invalid. He's stated his bais and he's weighed in his opinion. Lets leave it at that.

PAP-
Do you want reviews of the HS51? Or do you only want positive ones There have only been like 5 people who have reported after seeing this PJ. Asking him not to post his opinion because he didn't like it is just plain silly. I want to know what EVERYONE who saw this projector thought, good or bad.
-Matt
post #74 of 5686
I like the cut of this pj's jig based on what I have read. I may consider picking one up early next year if its CR turns out to be super high. Or, I may just wait for a 1080p version hopefully next year that will be under 10 grand.
post #75 of 5686
mpjohnst
I hear you. I am not saying his opinion is invalid. The disparity between his report and the others is so great that it certainly makes the opinion worthless.
post #76 of 5686
I want ALL the reviews, but statements like the consensus is that DLP is superior are useless and inflamatory.

Just the facts, maam.
post #77 of 5686
From what I've read they have in fact dropped the second digital input (DVI) for the HS51 and replaced it with VGA... for me this very disappointing and probably enough to eliminate it from my list of possible upgrades for my HS20.
post #78 of 5686
They may have dropped DVI on the HS51, but it has HDMI. If I'm not mistaken HDMI is compatible with DVI. All you need is a DVI to HDMI adapter or DVI to HDMI Cable. After a google search........


DVI to HDMI Cables here:

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI-hdmi_cables.html

Adapter:

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/D...pt.html#fmhdmi
post #79 of 5686
Quote:


They may have dropped DVI on the HS51, but it has HDMI. If I'm not mistaken HDMI is compatible with DVI. All you need is a DVI to HDMI adapter or DVI to HDMI Cable. After a google search........

Oh sure you can buy cables and adapters but that's not the point...

Where does your HTPC output connect? Well, it has to be the HDMI port because there is no DVI. Well, I currently have my HTPC connected to my HS20 via DVI---->HDMI (because of the EDID bug) which is a real pain in the ass because HDMI only supports very restricted resolutions as input. This means you're out of luck trying to use powerstrip to get rid of overscan at higher resolutions like 1280x720 (which most will want to use). So now where does my HDTV programming connect? What about those using DVD players with DVI/HDMI? For those that want digital quality inputs it is a real drawback... I wouldn't settle for VGA.
post #80 of 5686
I have not attacked anyone or their opinion. I have stated mine and if you don't agree fine but there is no need for name calling and insults. I am interested in LCD because my last 3 projectors have been LCD because of their value. I like LCD but I happen to think DLP produces a superior HT picture. I am very confident if there were a poll posted in both digital projector sections that the results would support my statement regarding the "consensus". To those who have attacked or attempted to ridicule my statements and claim I have a bias I would say that the voracity of response would indicate that you too have a bias. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion or bias and sharing ideas not insults is what I think this forum is supposed to be about.
post #81 of 5686
Let's all get along and get back to the subject at hand... the HS51.
post #82 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by mnn1265
(because of the EDID bug) which is a real pain in the ass because HDMI only supports very restricted resolutions as input. This means you're out of luck trying to use powerstrip to get rid of overscan at higher resolutions... I wouldn't settle for VGA.

I'm not familiar with the EDID bug. I guess we'll have to wait and see if we can adjust for overscan with a 720p signal to 1:1 mapping on the HS51 itself like the Hitachi TX100 can.
post #83 of 5686
Quote:


I'm not familiar with the EDID bug.

Lucky for you! The HS20 EDID is incorrect/incomplete and thus you can't use the DVI input at any decent resolution (or at any 16:9 aspect ratio) if you use a NVidia video card... extremely annoying to say the least.

Quote:


I guess we'll have to wait and see if we can adjust for overscan with a 720p signal to 1:1 mapping on the HS51 itself like the Hitachi TX100 can.

Yes, I'll be very interested to find that out myself. It'll could be very tricky with the single HDMI digital input available - we'll have to see. I'm more than a little pessimistic about it since 1280x720 is "supported" via HDMI with the HS20 and yet has an ugly overscan from a HTPC. Though of course the HS51 may be completely different...
post #84 of 5686
I attended CEDIA on yesterday and can offer a few impressions of the new HS51. About 2 weeks ago, I saw the HS20 at a HT store here in town and I also spent quite a bit of time with the AE700 at their hotel showroom yesterday. I do not own a projector. So, my thoughts represent one with limited experience. So, take them as you may. One other word is that I am extremely sensitive to rainbows, so I am none too fond of DLP.

I entered Sony's HS51 display room with some initial disappointment. The room was tiny and triangular. The point of the demo was to stress how flexible the machine was for installations. They had the machine waaay off center of the screen and were using lens shft liberally to get the image on screen properly. Of course, lense shift is becoming common place and it worked well.

Looking up at the unit, the only light I saw coming from it emitted from the lens or the lighted Sony sign on the top side of the projector. Not bad. They claim 24dB. And to be truthful, I could not hear any noise coming from the projector. However, I am only 5'5" and on the CEDIA showroom floor. So, I was not very close to the thing and there was a lot of ambient noise.

The image on screen was very bright. The blacks seemed deep to me even during bright scenes. I was immediately impressed by the image and drawn into it. They said they were showing 1080i scaled to 720p by the projector. It looked very clean and crisp.

In comparison to my memory of the HS20, this projector was quite an improvement. The blacks were much better, IMO. The image seemed brighter at the same time. However, we're comparing 2 projectors in 2 different environments here. So, it's probably of little value. But my opinion is that it would be worth upgrading if you really want better blacks. Beyond that, an HS20 owner should still be happy with their purchase.

I spent about 30-45 minutes with the AE700 as well. They had it set up at the show but it was on the showroom floor and there was not much to really be determined by viewing it in this manner. So, I made my way over to the Crown plaza and viewed it in their hotel room setup.

The first thing I noticed was that the AE700 by far has the most film like presentation. That smoothscreen technology seemed to remove any trace of pixel structure. The image had a slightly soft look in my opinion, but some may prefer this look. I am not sure which I prefer. I loved how smooth the screen looked but I also liked the sharpness of the HS51. So each to his own. They were showing Vertical Limit on the AE700 from a 480p DVD source. They also had some 1080i coming off a HD of some kid dancing in some black shoes. I have no idea what that movie was.

I noticed 2 things. During bright scenes, the projector looked pretty darn good. I liked to colors although the colors on the HS51 seemed more vibrant than the AE700. I immediately thought, this is a projector I'd be proud to have in my home. But after a while, I started to feel dissatisfied with the brightness. I noticed that during dark scenes, the projector just seemed very dim to me. They kept showing these people inside some ice cave of some sort and the image seemed to clamp the brightness down quite a bit. I never saw this on the HS51. Although, I don't think they showed any similar scenes on the HS51. So, perhaps the 51 would do this as well.

Overall, I just felt that the 51 had more pop than the 700. The colors seemed better, the blacks deeper, the brightness... well brighter. This could have been a source material difference as well. But my money is on the 51 being th better unit... and well, it's a grand more right? So, big surprise.

So, I am trying to decide what to buy around Christmas. To me the decision comes down to how much screen door affects you and how well these perform on dark scenes. I think they are both great units but my personal preference is with the 51 at this moment.

So, I hope that helps some people get a better sense of what we saw. I took some pics as well, but haven't had a chance to look at them yet. If anything is worth posting, I'll alert you guys.

reaper
post #85 of 5686
Thanks Reaper, Ran, and even Lekian for your reports from the show!

One open question still for the HS51. Does it use a MLA or not? I'm a (mostly) happy Sanyo PLV-70 owner and MLA tech is great for screendoor reduction - when properly focused. If so, I'm wondering from the reports that it may have been "differently" focused at the show. I would not be surprised if the folks conducting the demo did not know how to deal with a MLA if it does, indeed have one.

If there is no VB and it has a good MLA setup, this PJ could be make a pretty big splash in the HT scene!

Gordon
post #86 of 5686
nice review reaper.
post #87 of 5686
Quote:


Originally posted by mnn1265
Lucky for you! The HS20 EDID is incorrect/incomplete and thus you can't use the DVI input at any decent resolution (or at any 16:9 aspect ratio) if you use a NVidia video card... extremely annoying to say the least.

Will it work with an ATI?
post #88 of 5686
reaper:
Have you ever seen VB? If so did you notice any degree of VB in either unit?
post #89 of 5686
Leckian,

I did not mean my comments as an attack on you. Although upon re-reading what I said, I can see why you would be offended and I apologize. The point is that the way you worded your review, well, disqualifies you in my opinion from the pot of worthy information. Not because you didn't like it, but because you mainly and only used the old standard generalizations about LCD vs DLP that we have all heard a million times. This type of rhetoric has never ever helped anyone make a decision.

You didn't say things like "the contrast seems to be about 700:1" or "it seemed dimmer than my DLP" Those are comments we could use to make our purchase decision. Things approaching "LCD blows" or "I'd like to nominate TI for pope" can't help us buy or not buy an HS-51.

Gus

Edit: Also, I'd like you to know that I'm also disregarding any obvious "fanboy" comments from my consideration. Things like "This is the best projector ever built" or "this beats a Qualia" will be ignored as well. So I'm not definitely looking for sugar coating. Lie someone already said: "Just the facts, maam."
post #90 of 5686
Quote:


Will it work with an ATI?

Yes. The EDID bug effects NVidia video cards because NVidia software/drivers forces adherence to the EDID settings - which are wrong for the HS20. However, even some ATI cards may use EDID settings so it's not a guarentee your not going to have some problems with the bad EDID. Also, Panasonic and some other brand HDTV's also have bad EDID's...
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