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Yamaha S-2500 universal player - DCDi, HDMI, i.Link, video scaling - Page 2

post #31 of 623
Thanks again for the info. I didn't read this until I saw your reply on the other thread. At least I know not to try and buy the 2500, because it would not upconvert the component or even play through the DVI-HDMI. Thanks again, looks like a good DVD Player is out for me.
post #32 of 623


I don't know what your budget is like, what your plans are, or how good that projector is, but... have you at all considered getting something that IS HDCP compliant so you can have the rest of the world opened to you?
post #33 of 623
I really haven't because it is a really good machine. I use it for Sat. and DVD. I think it has a great picture and have not had a bit of trouble with it. I paid about 4800 for it, so it would probably not bring much in the market due to the HDCP issue. I wasn't too smart as I thought the HDCP would be for copying only. I will probably try the MIS. or another Bravo as they seem to be my only choice. I do think the picture with the DVD is great, not so hot on the Audio. Thanks for the help you have given me, I really appreciate it!
post #34 of 623
Good luck!
post #35 of 623
I have just received an email from Yamaha themselves stating that the s2500 will begin shipping at the end of October.
post #36 of 623
Ok, this thing wants to be stupid. I have the PDF with the Yamaha s2500 stats but this forum says its too big.

I'll try and shrink it otherwise PM me your email adress and I'll just email you the PDF. Life's too short.

Email chill@yamaha.com and he'll email the PDF also.
post #37 of 623
For what it is worth, my Yamaha Rx-Z9 has the 216MHz/12-bit chip and it upconverts to 720 p and 1080 i over component.
I am going to get the 2500 and upconvert 16:9 movies over the HDMI directly to the projector.
I will run component cables to the Z9, and upconvert 2.35 movies thru component so I can stretch the image and use a panamorph.
Come on Yamaha, I can't wait.
post #38 of 623
FWIW, this same source at Yamaha, when questioned by me directly, says he "feels very confident that these units will ship at the end of October."
post #39 of 623
I have to give a nod to Denon with the inclusion of both HDMI and DVI ports. The whole DVI-HDMI chipset issue that causes loss of blacker than black is something to be concerned about with an HDMI only player, I can't remember if it's only for DVI -> HDMI or vice versa, or both. It is an issue that you need to be aware of though.

Of course, if you have HDMI on your display, then it's a moot point (;
post #40 of 623
I'm worried about this issue. I have only DVI input on my TV.
post #41 of 623
Wondered if anyone has tried the HDMI DVD Player to a Non HDCP Projector.
post #42 of 623
I spoke to one of the engineers that worked on this player and thought I should share the info with the forum.

The S2500 is based on the philips 900sa platform ie, the chassis, transport, software, chipsets are exactly the same. Philips did the design work and engineering and Yamaha bought the player wholesale and added their own specs.

The main difference between the Philips and Yammy is that Yamaha had specified the addition of DVD-Audio support plus the inclusion of I-link. In other words, think of the Philips 900sa as Yamaha S2500 lite.

The Mpeg chip on board is based on LSI, as Philips tend to go with them for their mpeg solutions. Almost all of Yamaha's DVD players are based on Philips players, with the exception of the S2300 which was sourced from the Panasonic RP-91.

I was also told that it is unlikely that the S2500 would be ready to ship this year. A working model would be ready for January's CES, but consumers arent likely to see them in their homes until March next year.

So far, Philips has no plans to release the 900sa in the US market as there have been no orders forthcoming. That's a shame cos the 900sa will likely to retail at half the price of the S2500. For those that dont need the i-link and DVD-A capability, it's probably a nice HDMI upscaling player to buy. Also, for those who like DSD, the 900sa has an option that "upscales" all PCM material into DSD stream (somewhat like the Sony XA777ES and XA9000ES).
post #43 of 623
Joe: I think the information I sent you before was HDMI specs are all signals coming from HDMI are HDPC compliant. If this is the case and I think it is....you can not send a signal via HDMI to a non HDPC projector. As discussed in other threads where you brought up the subject and my PM's to you...you are limited in your choices to those discussed before.

It's sad, but there is no getting around the issue. Non-HDPC compliant projectors and TV's can not show a HDPC signal via DVI and if the information below is correct, ALL HDMI signals.

Here is an article about the HDMI specs:

http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.php/1554691



Here is the issue specific to your question, which it's inclusion means that HDPC is part of the final spec:

"HDMI with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) technology solves the issue of protecting high-value content from unauthorized reproduction and distribution," the founding group said
post #44 of 623
Quote:


Originally posted by Clepto
I have to give a nod to Denon with the inclusion of both HDMI and DVI ports. The whole DVI-HDMI chipset issue that causes loss of blacker than black is something to be concerned about with an HDMI only player, I can't remember if it's only for DVI -> HDMI or vice versa, or both. It is an issue that you need to be aware of though.

Of course, if you have HDMI on your display, then it's a moot point (;

There has been a significant amount of debate on this issue. And, I haven't seen a well-written conclusion that makes clear sense. In an effort to resolve the issue, I'd like document the conclusion I've formed. (Feel free to let me know if I've got it wrong)!

In another thread, a video cabler/designer confirmed that pin configurations are NOT the cause. In fact, he said there is a 1-to-1 mapping of the pins when using a DVI=>HDMI or HDMI=>DVI adapter (or cable). Additionally, I understand the HDMI specification to target standard 0-255 video levels. That means an HDMI input port should expect to receive these values. However, DVI was designed more as a computer interface (at least at the beginning). And, that means the narrower bit values (7-255) can be expected by some displays.

If you feed a 0-255 signal (standard video levels) to a port which only "see's" 7-255 (PC levels), you'll lose/crop below-black information. The result is that deep blacks won't be available. Conversely, if you send a DVI (PC) signal to an HDMI port, below-black information is displayed, but because it was already compressed (crushed) up into the values above it, some detail will be lost. This "crushing" means that fewer shades of black are retained. (Realize that a DVI PC signal will also look the same when fed into a DVI port).

My conclusion is that you need to investigate the video levels of your source device and your display device. If your source device does not send the full 0-255 range, you'll never get to see as much black detail. If your display device does not look for the full 0-255 range, you probably won't see the darkest blacks possible. Knowing these parameters should make it simple to predict how your display will react to a particular input device and/or cable conversion.

gp
post #45 of 623
Thanks for the info. again. I pretty much understand this, but I have talked to others who have said that it didn't make a difference and they could receive the picture and it looked great, but that was word of mouth. I have not seen it.
post #46 of 623
Is it just some players, or can we expect any and all that have HDMI out to have that "handshake" issue and black crush if one tries to use an HDMI-DVI setup.

I'm hoping Kris or someone who actually has some clout can get more info on this player. I have the PDF and can email it to anyone who's interested anytime, but there's some specifics that PDF just doesn't have.
post #47 of 623
What is the quality of Philips components going into the 2500? I know its hard to say as the 2500 isn't available yet but I really haven't heard much about Philips products.

I am really interested in both the 2500 and the Denon 2910. Would the 2500 with Philips components compare equally with the 2910? The 2500 looked like the one for me with the addition of i-link but with a release date of mid '05 it might not be worth the wait.

Thanks for any thoughts on this, Bill
post #48 of 623
Bill,

It's kinda hard for anyone to speculate on what is the quality of the philips 900sa components that the Yamaha S2500 is based on, since neither player is available commercially at present.

The 900sa is configured as a mid-range DVD player, and is envisaged as a replacement from their very successful 963sa player. I have a 963sa, and I would say that the parts used are pretty decent, while certainly not top of the line. Philips has abandoned producing high-end DVD players after the SACD1000 debacle. They initially only sold 39 of 1000 players brought into the US market at the original MSRP. The remaining stock had to be sold off at deep discounts.

Be that as it may, the 900sa is a very different player from the 963sa. It uses a different mpeg decoder (LSI vs ST Microelectronics), and offers DSD "upsampling" as opposed to PCM 192/24 upsampling in the 963sa.

If I was in your shoes, rather than wait for the S2500, I would buy one of the players available right now. If you are a Denon fan, and have no MB issues with your display, the 2910 and 3910 are excellent options. But my favourite player at present is the 59avi, which I find to be an excellent player, fuss free picture and audio, and no significant issues whatever.

That said, I also have the 3910, which I thought sounded better using 5.1 analog out. Picture wise, it is outstanding, but had some MB problems on my panny plasma. I now use it primarily for SACD and DVD-A. If Denon and Faroudja ever issued a fix for the deinterlacer, I would rank it over the 59avi.

Cheers
post #49 of 623
Hi Guys,

Does anyone (Q?) know if the S-2500 will output 480i over HDMI? I am specifically looking for a universal player with this capability to feed a Sony GW IV. The only players that I know of that currently do this are the Pioneer 59avi and the Arcam DV-79, at about double the cost of the Yammy. The Yamaha's price point sure is attractive.
post #50 of 623
It appears that there is a lower cost option for you headed down the pike. Look here.
post #51 of 623
geradix,

Thanks for your response. The 59avi is also a strong contender for me as well. I think the 2500 is to far off and the 2910 or the 59avi will probably be my choice.

Is macro-blocking more noticeable on a plasma? I have a 42" Panasonic ED monitor so I was wondering if it would be an issue.

Thanks again, Bill
post #52 of 623
Quote:
Originally posted by jbaracelona
Thanks for the info. again. I pretty much understand this, but I have talked to others who have said that it didn't make a difference and they could receive the picture and it looked great, but that was word of mouth. I have not seen it.

If that's the case Joe, I would post a separate topic on this subject. Since others have reported the ability to output a non-HDPC signal (which is what the player would have to do) via HDMI, this is counter to what the HDMI specs say...this would be an important revelation that I sure others would want to know about. This difference would open up the options for others with non-HDPC compliant projectors and TV's. That would be good news for many.

Good Luck
Ron
post #53 of 623
Thanks Ron
post #54 of 623
Anyone have an update on when this is going to be released?
post #55 of 623
Nope. My guy that I emailed at Yamaha a few times still swears by the end of this month. I very seriously doubt it given Yamaha's track record. I am fearing that January or February, like others have suggested is more correct. That will be very disappointing.
post #56 of 623
From the press release: "The DVD-S2500 includes an i.Link digital connection for DVD-Audio, Linear PCM, SA-CD and other high-quality digital audio transfer capabilities."

Not familiar with i-link. Does this pass DVD-A and SACD in raw form to a processor with an i-link input? I would love to get away from the 6 analog connectors from my DVD/SACD player to my prepro.
post #57 of 623
Just read the 59avi versus 3910 thread. Now understand i-link is another name for firewire and that it does indeed pass these digitally. Now, however, I'm worried about the post (back on the 59/3910 thread) stating that DVD-A menus are not passed via HDMI. Why is there always something screwed up! I want to run HDMI to a Panny AE700 and an i-link to my Anthem (which has an upgrade coming soon for DVD-A and SACD via firewire) and that's it. I was getting excited about this possibility, but now there's this HDMI DVD-A issue.

Anyone else with input on this?
post #58 of 623
Can't comment yet specifically in regards to this player, but, if I understood what I read in the other threads, it's either a glitch or some proprietary issue.
post #59 of 623
Quote:
Originally posted by GreggPenn
There has been a significant amount of debate on this issue. And, I haven't seen a well-written conclusion that makes clear sense. In an effort to resolve the issue, I'd like document the conclusion I've formed. (Feel free to let me know if I've got it wrong)!

In another thread, a video cabler/designer confirmed that pin configurations are NOT the cause. In fact, he said there is a 1-to-1 mapping of the pins when using a DVI=>HDMI or HDMI=>DVI adapter (or cable). Additionally, I understand the HDMI specification to target standard 0-255 video levels. That means an HDMI input port should expect to receive these values. However, DVI was designed more as a computer interface (at least at the beginning). And, that means the narrower bit values (7-255) can be expected by some displays.

If you feed a 0-255 signal (standard video levels) to a port which only "see's" 7-255 (PC levels), you'll lose/crop below-black information. The result is that deep blacks won't be available. Conversely, if you send a DVI (PC) signal to an HDMI port, below-black information is displayed, but because it was already compressed (crushed) up into the values above it, some detail will be lost. This "crushing" means that fewer shades of black are retained. (Realize that a DVI PC signal will also look the same when fed into a DVI port).


My conclusion is that you need to investigate the video levels of your source device and your display device. If your source device does not send the full 0-255 range, you'll never get to see as much black detail. If your display device does not look for the full 0-255 range, you probably won't see the darkest blacks possible. Knowing these parameters should make it simple to predict how your display will react to a particular input device and/or cable conversion.

gp

This raises a question in my mind. I use the Aurora A303 expansion card to get a DVI path into my Pioneer 503cmx plasma, as opposed to Pioneer's 5002 expansion card that it came with it. The plasma is out for tune up but I have to wonder, as the 503 has computer monitor timings/specs, if feeding 480i into the original plasma adapter cards' DVI would be better in some ways than in the Aurora A303's dvi. The Aurora was our solution to get compatibility 720p, 1080i and HDCP etc.


Hmmm, time for more research.
post #60 of 623
Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Mac
What is the quality of Philips components going into the 2500? I know its hard to say as the 2500 isn't available yet but I really haven't heard much about Philips products.

I am really interested in both the 2500 and the Denon 2910. Would the 2500 with Philips components compare equally with the 2910? The 2500 looked like the one for me with the addition of i-link but with a release date of mid '05 it might not be worth the wait.

Thanks for any thoughts on this, Bill

I read an article on some past Yamaha dvd players and it went into detail about how in the past Yamaha licensed entire designs from Philips, added or tweaked features, but also executed the build and quality MUCH better than Philips. It went on to say how that was a trend with Yamaha on dvd players. I don't recall the link as I tend to read this stuff for hours at a crack.

Perhaps because of Philips location overseas, or some other reason I tend to find alot of this new info on foreign sites. I frequently find these links/web articles on random searches, its reallly hard to keep track of and bookmark all of them properly, especially as they often don't stay up long.

So I would expect that to be the case with S2500.
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