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Youngstown, OH - HDTV - Page 9

post #241 of 1952
Thanks Chief!
post #242 of 1952
TV21CHIEF - are you guys upping the power on WFMJ-DT by July 1?

I asked you about this here a year or so ago and...well, it is coming up in about 2 1/2 months.

I see you guys have a CP for the 460KW final DT power level...

I know, I know, I'm out of market, but it'd be nice to get both you and WKBN-DT this summer.
post #243 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inundated View Post

TV21CHIEF - are you guys upping the power on WFMJ-DT by July 1?

I asked you about this here a year or so ago and...well, it is coming up in about 2 1/2 months.

I see you guys have a CP for the 460KW final DT power level...

I know, I know, I'm out of market, but it'd be nice to get both you and WKBN-DT this summer.

Yes. It's going to be real close to July 1. The equipment is on order and I'm trying to get the delivery dates set to make July 1. The existing main antenna has to come down and be replaced while I operate both stations from the existing DTV side mount. It will be a "fun" project
post #244 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TV21CHIEF View Post

Yes. It's going to be real close to July 1. The equipment is on order and I'm trying to get the delivery dates set to make July 1. The existing main antenna has to come down and be replaced while I operate both stations from the existing DTV side mount. It will be a "fun" project

You engineering types have will have ALL sorts of "fun" in the coming months. Not only are you and your WKBN counterpart gonna be busy, but so is WBNX (WB55) over here.

Good to hear it. As I said, if I can get a decent DTV signal out of you guys and WKBN, I should be able to keep tabs on the market...though I haven't worked over there since about 1991 or so...
post #245 of 1952
TV21Cheif: When you up your power will your signal be more directional than the current pattern? Looking at the coverage maps on the FCC site, your signal will make it all the way to Brecksville (according to the 41 dbu map that is associated with your CP). I'm literally just on the outside edge of that line in the southeastern corner of Parma. I see your signal on the meter everyday (53 - 70 but then it drops to near 0), but it only locks when the atmosphere helps. This is with an indoor Silver Sensor. I'm 1130' above sea level and on the "lee side" of the hill (i.e. the terrain slopes downward to the southeast). I think I might have a good shot at getting your signal daily with an outdoor directional antenna.
post #246 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inundated View Post

You engineering types have will have ALL sorts of "fun" in the coming months. Not only are you and your WKBN counterpart gonna be busy, but so is WBNX (WB55) over here.

Good to hear it. As I said, if I can get a decent DTV signal out of you guys and WKBN, I should be able to keep tabs on the market...though I haven't worked over there since about 1991 or so...

Inundated
when is WBNX goning on the air
post #247 of 1952
TV21CHIEF
Your signal rocks here in Wintersville Ohio.
post #248 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by firemantom26 View Post

Inundated
when is WBNX goning on the air

They are still waiting for FCC approval of their construction permit.

Last time I looked, they submitted another technical amendment as recently as late February, with some demonstration of how the signal would better protect concerns in Canada...even though they were convinced earlier that the Canadians were OK with their proposal.

Their website says they are "endeavoring" to get WBNX-DT on the air by the FCC deadline for non-big four network stations, July 1st.

http://www.wbnx.com/trends.htm
post #249 of 1952
Yet another ignorant question..

I apologize again but I'm not HDTV fluent yet..

I have an HDTV (Sony KDF-E42A10) and I don't have cable so I just get the locals (21/27/33/62).. I have a roof antenna and pick those channels up crystal clear 99% of the time..

When a show comes on (say 24, American Idol, CSI, etc) that says "Broadcast in HD where available" will any of those actually broadcast in HD?

I know.. DUMB question.. Thanks
post #250 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael P 2341 View Post

TV21Cheif: When you up your power will your signal be more directional than the current pattern?

That pattern is what I'm putting on the air. In order to protect Canada I had to squash the northeast portion of the signal. Those patterns are based on predictions, not actual real-life. If you're ouside the circle, you could still get a strong signal. Likewise, you could be in the circle and not get anything.
post #251 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by firemantom26 View Post

TV21CHIEF
Your signal rocks here in Wintersville Ohio.


Wintersville is down by Steubenville, right? I looked on my Longley-Rice coverage map and you're just outside the served area. Like I said in my previous post, those maps are predictions only. What you get in real-life is totally different. I am glad I'm getting out that far with reduced facilities though.

FYI, the Longley-Rice map at my full facilities puts you just inside the served area. It seems strange that after doubling power and increasing height by 60 meters, you only gain about 10 miles, but that's the way it works.
post #252 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TV21CHIEF View Post

Wintersville is down by Steubenville, right? I looked on my Longley-Rice coverage map and you're just outside the served area. Like I said in my previous post, those maps are predictions only. What you get in real-life is totally different. I am glad I'm getting out that far with reduced facilities though.

FYI, the Longley-Rice map at my full facilities puts you just inside the served area. It seems strange that after doubling power and increasing height by 60 meters, you only gain about 10 miles, but that's the way it works.

TV21CHIEF
yes it is and your signal both analog and hd boom in here.
post #253 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird2340 View Post

Yet another ignorant question..

I apologize again but I'm not HDTV fluent yet..

I have an HDTV (Sony KDF-E42A10) and I don't have cable so I just get the locals (21/27/33/62).. I have a roof antenna and pick those channels up crystal clear 99% of the time..

When a show comes on (say 24, American Idol, CSI, etc) that says "Broadcast in HD where available" will any of those actually broadcast in HD?

I know.. DUMB question.. Thanks

It's not a dumb question at all! Digital broadcasting can be real confusing to the average viewer. Whenyou say you are getting the locals "21/27/33/62" are you watching the analog signals or the digital signals? Currently only 2 out of those 4 stations are broadcasting digitally: 21 and 33, if you are getting them digitally you are actually watching channels 20 & 36 (they are i.d.'ed as 21-1 and 33-1, plus 21 has a WB affilliate piggybacked on a subchannel 21-2 "WCWB")

The key to your answer lies in the phrase "where available". Since WYFX is going to be "piggybacked" on a subchannel of WKBN-DT it will not be in HD. For you to get 24 and the rest of the FOX network in true HD requires you to get WJW-DT out of Cleveland or the FOX affiliate out of Pitsburgh (depending on where inthe Y'town market area you are). There is a lot of overlap of signals from the neighboring markets in the Youngstown market so you should be able to get one or the other OTA (unless you are in a low lying area). If yu invest in anantenna to get WJW-DT keep in mind that at the end of the transition (when the analog channels go off the air for good) they might put the digital signal back on ch 8 (VHF Hi Band) right now to get WJW-DT you need a good UHF antenna that can receive ch 31.
post #254 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael P 2341 View Post

If yu invest in anantenna to get WJW-DT keep in mind that at the end of the transition (when the analog channels go off the air for good) they might put the digital signal back on ch 8 (VHF Hi Band) right now to get WJW-DT you need a good UHF antenna that can receive ch 31.

WJW-DT is moving their digital channel back to 8 at analog shutoff. That will leave the Cleveland market with two high-VHF channels (WJW-DT and WOIO-DT which will be keeping their digital channel on 10 after analog shutdown). Everybody else in the Cleveland market will be UHF, including WKYC-DT, which has applied for channel 17 or channel 32 as a secondary choice. I can't wait for that day!

Bottom line - Michael is correct. If you want to receive Cleveland market digital stations now AND after analog shutdown, you will need an antenna that can receive high-VHF signals.
post #255 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackKnight View Post

WJW-DT is moving their digital channel back to 8 at analog shutoff. That will leave the Cleveland market with two high-VHF channels (WJW-DT and WOIO-DT which will be keeping their digital channel on 10 after analog shutdown). Everybody else in the Cleveland market will be UHF, including WKYC-DT, which has applied for channel 17 or channel 32 as a secondary choice. I can't wait for that day!

Bottom line - Michael is correct. If you want to receive Cleveland market digital stations now AND after analog shutdown, you will need an antenna that can receive high-VHF signals.


So why is WJW staying on 8 and 3 and moving to 17 or 32? I understand WOIO wanting to move to VHF. I thought they were going to have the option of keeping their old channels. Is channel 5 staying on 5?
post #256 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by theshark8777 View Post

So why is WJW staying on 8 and 3 and moving to 17 or 32? I understand WOIO wanting to move to VHF. I thought they were going to have the option of keeping their old channels. Is channel 5 staying on 5?

WKYC's problem is simple - they have to get out of noisy, hard to tune in low-VHF hell. And considering that they'll still remap to "3-1", etc., it really won't make a difference for branding if their actual digital channel is 17 or 32.

Channel 5 is staying digitally at 15, IIRC. There may still be some of the same problems with a digital 5 as WKYC has on 2, but not to the same degree.
post #257 of 1952
I see, so even if they stay where they are, they will be remapped to the other station number? So then would they be channel 17 or 3?!
post #258 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by theshark8777 View Post

I see, so even if they stay where they are, they will be remapped to the other station number? So then would they be channel 17 or 3?!

I believe the rules give digital stations a choice - they can identify by their original analog channel number or their new digital channel number. I have yet to see a digital channel in this area choose their digital channel number for identification - they all use channel remapping to identify with their original analog channel numbers. For example, WFMJ-DT still identifies as channel 21, WJW-DT identifies as channel 8 (FOX 8). The PBS in Akron, WEAO-DT, was until a few months ago showing up on digital tuners with their digital assignment, channel 50, but they now remap to channel 49, their analog ID. And they always ID'd on the air as PBS 45/49.

I think the idea is that these TV stations have invested many years of advertising and publicity branding themselves as "channel so-and-so" and do not want to throw that away. Iwould be willing to bet that when WKYC-DT moves to either 17 or 32, they will maintain their identity as "Channel 3".
post #259 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackKnight View Post

I believe the rules give digital stations a choice - they can identify by their original analog channel number or their new digital channel number. I have yet to see a digital channel in this area choose their digital channel number for identification - they all use channel remapping to identify with their original analog channel numbers. For example, WFMJ-DT still identifies as channel 21, WJW-DT identifies as channel 8 (FOX 8). The PBS in Akron, WEAO-DT, was until a few months ago showing up on digital tuners with their digital assignment, channel 50, but they now remap to channel 49, their analog ID. And they always ID'd on the air as PBS 45/49.

I think the idea is that these TV stations have invested many years of advertising and publicity branding themselves as "channel so-and-so" and do not want to throw that away. Iwould be willing to bet that when WKYC-DT moves to either 17 or 32, they will maintain their identity as "Channel 3".

That is what I was wondering, for years these stations have been on their channel numbers. I have noticed that WFMJ does advertise as 21, but in small letters underneath is says WFMJ DT 20. I think they are the only one I have seen like that though. It would make sense to keep the numbers they have now. So basically whatever channel they broadcast on will more than likely be remapped to their old channel number.
post #260 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael P 2341 View Post

It's not a dumb question at all! Digital broadcasting can be real confusing to the average viewer. Whenyou say you are getting the locals "21/27/33/62" are you watching the analog signals or the digital signals? Currently only 2 out of those 4 stations are broadcasting digitally: 21 and 33, if you are getting them digitally you are actually watching channels 20 & 36 (they are i.d.'ed as 21-1 and 33-1, plus 21 has a WB affilliate piggybacked on a subchannel 21-2 "WCWB")

The key to your answer lies in the phrase "where available". Since WYFX is going to be "piggybacked" on a subchannel of WKBN-DT it will not be in HD. For you to get 24 and the rest of the FOX network in true HD requires you to get WJW-DT out of Cleveland or the FOX affiliate out of Pitsburgh (depending on where inthe Y'town market area you are). There is a lot of overlap of signals from the neighboring markets in the Youngstown market so you should be able to get one or the other OTA (unless you are in a low lying area). If yu invest in anantenna to get WJW-DT keep in mind that at the end of the transition (when the analog channels go off the air for good) they might put the digital signal back on ch 8 (VHF Hi Band) right now to get WJW-DT you need a good UHF antenna that can receive ch 31.

Ah.. Starting to understand more now.. I just got my TV and in the auto scan it picks up:

21
21.1
21.2
27
33
33.1
62

So basically WKBN owns 27 / 62 and they don't broadcast digital yet? I live in Poland and when I do an autoscan those are the only channels that come in so I guess I can't pick up those Cleveland or Pittsburgh channels.

Thanks for the reply!
post #261 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird2340 View Post

So basically WKBN owns 27 / 62 and they don't broadcast digital yet? I live in Poland and when I do an autoscan those are the only channels that come in so I guess I can't pick up those Cleveland or Pittsburgh channels.

Yep, the channels without the .1 (or .2) after them are the analog channels...21/27/33's analog side and 62.

62 can't do digital because it is an LPTV station. Those stations have not been allowed to put up a second digital station like the full-power stations (21/27/33) have.

There's a filing window that will allow them to apply for a second, digital station in May, but WKBN/WYFX's engineer has already stated in here that there's no room for a second channel in Youngstown...too many allocations are already taken because of surrounding markets (Cleveland, Pittsburgh, etc.).

Thus, WYFX/62 will only go digital when it "flash cuts" - shuts off the analog signal and puts up a digital signal. That's not likely to happen until the federally-mandated conversion for all stations to broadcast digital only (currently February 17, 2009).

WKBN/WYFX's engineer already noted here that they are providing a digital/HD feed of FOX 17/62 to local cable companies. I believe Armstrong already has it, and others may in the future.
post #262 of 1952
So basically what your saying is that to get 27/62 in HD I would have to get cable or wait until 2009?

Man, that sucks..
post #263 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird2340 View Post

So basically what your saying is that to get 27/62 in HD I would have to get cable or wait until 2009?

Man, that sucks..

Digital 27 will be on the air within the next couple of weeks (channel 41 I believe). Unless you have cable or Tom's company makes an agreement to fiber to D*/E* and you subscribe to a satellite service, then you'll have to wait until 17/62 flash cuts. Satellite HD is not in the Youngstown market yet.
post #264 of 1952
So then I am correct in my statement?

Why can't it be 27.1?
post #265 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird2340 View Post

So basically what your saying is that to get 27/62 in HD I would have to get cable or wait until 2009?

Man, that sucks..

Your statement is incorrect regarding channel 27 in that:
WKBN-DT channel 27.1 will be on in the next couple of weeks with CBS HD programs.
WKBN-DT channel 27.2 will be on the air in the next couple of weeks with Fox SD programs.

Your statement "might be" correct on Fox low power channels 17/62 because:
In 2009, channel 62 will be out of the "core" channels and therefore will go away permanently. There is another Cleveland station that already has dibs on channel 17 in 2009. WKYC channel 3 is considering Ch 17 for their final digital resting place. So, if Fox still wants to have an OTA presence in Y-town, WKBN will have to find another open channel(s) and move.
post #266 of 1952
Sorry man.. Now I'm more confused..

So there is going to be a 27.1 HD that will broadcast the same stuff as 27 only in HD? And then there will be a 27.2 that will broadcast Fox SD? Why would it be a DT channel (27.2) if it's only going to broadcast Fox SD?
post #267 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird2340 View Post

Sorry man.. Now I'm more confused..

So there is going to be a 27.1 HD that will broadcast the same stuff as 27 only in HD? And then there will be a 27.2 that will broadcast Fox SD? Why would it be a DT channel (27.2) if it's only going to broadcast Fox SD?

You can squeeze 1 HD channel and 1 SD channel in a station's entire digital channel. The broadcasters put information into the digital bitstream that tells digital tuners this part of the signal is 21.1 and this part is 21.2.

You are confusing "digital" with "high-definition". There are digital stations on the air with up to 4 "digital" channels that are NOT "high definition". PBS station WNEO runs 3 SD channels and no HD all day.

On my station, right now:
WFMJ-DT 21.1 is an HD version of my analog channel.
WFMJ-DT 21.2 is The WB in SD.

I know it's confusing - just keep asking
post #268 of 1952
Ahh... Making more sense. I was wondering why the 21.1 had excellent picture while the 21.2 was not as good. So 21.2 is broadcast entirely in SD?

So 27 will have

27.1 an HD version of 27 and
27.2 just a duplicate of 62 in SD?
post #269 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird2340 View Post

So 27 will have

27.1 an HD version of 27 and
27.2 just a duplicate of 62 in SD?


Correct! Same as me, only 2 different networks.
post #270 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird2340 View Post

Ahh... Making more sense. I was wondering why the 21.1 had excellent picture while the 21.2 was not as good. So 21.2 is broadcast entirely in SD?

So 27 will have

27.1 an HD version of 27 and
27.2 just a duplicate of 62 in SD?

My post above was only talking about the inability for FOX 17/62 to put up a digital/HD feed. WKBN-DT, as mentioned, will be up fairly soon, with the HD/digital simulcast of 27 and the SD simulcast of LPTV 62.

There's not enough room on either WFMJ-DT or WKBN-DT for two HD channels, so WFMJ has to transmit "WBCB" in SD on the DT channel, and WKBN will have to transmit WYFX in SD on the DT channel...since the main channel (21 and 27 respectively) will be the HD one.

There's not enough bandwidth on digital TV to let WFMJ do both NBC HD and WB HD, and WKBN to do both CBS HD and FOX HD...so WB/FOX are in SD. Again, the stations can contract with cable companies to send an HD fiber feed of the other network, but they can't fit it on the over-air channel.
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