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Youngstown, OH - HDTV - Page 12

post #331 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackKnight View Post

I noticed that as well. I thought that maybe my reception just was not stable. It was exactly as you described - it appeared as though frames were being dropped. Perhaps Mr. Zocolo can enlighten us?

BTW, I saw the same thing, and I was otherwise receiving WKBN-DT that night, with no such problems on 27-2 with WYFX.

As far as WFMJ-DT goes, 460KW will be its final power. Right now, it's on an STA (temporary authority) of 200KW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael P 2341 View Post

I still havn't put up an outdoor antenna, however using a Silver Sensor on top of my TV (not looking out an ESE window) I get 66 - 70 on the E* scale. What is strange is at that level I never could get a lock on any other station, but luckily I do on WKBN.

Oddly enough, I see the same here. I can go to about 60% on my Fusion tuner and what looks to be less than half on the USDTV receiver, and I can get a lock on WKBN-DT. Maybe Mr. Zocolo is feeding the hamsters a little something extra?

Thanks for reminding me...I will get the Silver Sensor from upstairs and see if that helps get a better lock from inside.
post #332 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael P 2341 View Post

A note on picture quality: The other evening CBS ran the movie "Something Has to Give". There was a strobing effect just during that film. If you ever saw a PAL or SECAM video converted to NTSC it sort of looked like that - a jitter every now and then like frames were being dropped. I compaired WKBN to WOIO and I did not see the same thing on WOIO (however I did see the obnoxious color pulsations on OIO ). I have not seen it again since that evening, so maybe it was an anomaly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackKnight View Post

I noticed that as well. I thought that maybe my reception just was not stable. It was exactly as you described - it appeared as though frames were being dropped. Perhaps Mr. Zocolo can enlighten us?

I'm afraid that I don't have much enlightenment to offer on this one. I didn't see it happening so I can't track down the source or even speculate on the "anomaly." But it's early in the game so let me know if you see it again and I'll try and get a track record of the situations that surround this thing.
post #333 of 1952
For what it's worth...I appear only to be able to get WKBN-DT during the nighttime hours, same antenna position. I haven't yet gotten it during daytime. I don't know enough about the way TV signals travel to know if that's significant or not

I wouldn't worry about it too much, though...I am over here in Akron, and using an indoor antenna pointed out the window to boot. My digital tuner's signal meter is bouncing up and down during the day, but steady at night. I'm still thinking about getting a modest outdoor UHF antenna to get more reliable reception.
post #334 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inundated View Post

For what it's worth...I appear only to be able to get WKBN-DT during the nighttime hours, same antenna position. I haven't yet gotten it during daytime. I don't know enough about the way TV signals travel to know if that's significant or not

I wouldn't worry about it too much, though...I am over here in Akron, and using an indoor antenna pointed out the window to boot. My digital tuner's signal meter is bouncing up and down during the day, but steady at night. I'm still thinking about getting a modest outdoor UHF antenna to get more reliable reception.

Be advised that there is still a crew working on the tower. This morning at 8:30 the cage holding the crew was right behind the DT antenna. I'm sure it was off at the time. So if you don't see it between sunrise and sunset, it's probably shut off to protect the crews.
post #335 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TV21CHIEF View Post

Be advised that there is still a crew working on the tower. This morning at 8:30 the cage holding the crew was right behind the DT antenna. I'm sure it was off at the time. So if you don't see it between sunrise and sunset, it's probably shut off to protect the crews.

Ah, there ya go. Mr. Zocolo had mentioned that there was still some adjusting to be done! When I got downstairs late this morning, the receiver had locked on a signal drop.

But, I'm still getting bounce back and forth on the signal during the day, so SOMETHING was on...anyway, at night it is much easier to get than it is during the day, whether it be due to daytime work, lower power during work times or whatever.

I'm just thrilled I get it at all, and I can't wait for you guys to go 460KW and higher up on the stick...I might have a shot at your station, too. I'm not holding my breath for the other major network affiliate over there...
post #336 of 1952
Another factor in regards to reception could be the new foliage bursting onto the trees. I know that leaves affect UHF. Add to that the way 8VSB digital TV is broadcast (sidebands) it would not take much deflection to lose the signal ( the up and down signal levels may be caused by leaves blowing in the wind ).

Bottom line an antenna placement that worked yesterday might not work once the leaves are in full bloom. The higher your antenna is the better, outside is best.
post #337 of 1952
Quote:
I'm just thrilled I get it at all, and I can't wait for you guys to go 460KW and higher up on the stick...I might have a shot at your station, too. I'm not holding my breath for the other major network affiliate over there...

Unfortunately WYTV has always been the weakest Y'town station. Go figure, WEWS leads the way in network preemptions so it's the alternate ABC that is the hardest for us to receive.
post #338 of 1952
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I hope it's not as bad as it looks.

Last week, WKBN's owner filed for a new STA, to reduce the height of the WKBN-DT antenna by some 33 meters. The power would remain the same.

This appears that it'll have a significant effect on the coverage of the station for folks outside the market.

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/w...&fac_num=73153

Here is the current WKBN-DT FCC service area map:



Here is the service area map of the proposed STA:

post #339 of 1952
This map, from the WKBN-DT STA exhibit itself, makes me feel a LITTLE better, and is hopefully more accurate:



I can't see how going down 33 meters at the same power level would impact coverage as bad as it looks up in the FCC service area map.
post #340 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inundated View Post

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I hope it's not as bad as it looks.

I don't have the metrics memorized, but 33 meters lower would put it approximately where it is now, side mounted at 1200 feet. Which you all are happy with. And, height over power anytime. It has a much more dramatic effect on coverage.
post #341 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TV21CHIEF View Post

I don't have the metrics memorized, but 33 meters lower would put it approximately where it is now, side mounted at 1200 feet. Which you all are happy with. And, height over power anytime. It has a much more dramatic effect on coverage.

I'm confused.

The antenna is already at the position envisioned in the application of last week? If so, why did they have to apply for this? And why does the coverage map on the FCC website for the application look so bad compared to the CP?

Take a look at that second map again, it's the one linked to the application...though as mentioned and shown below, the one actually submitted by WKBN in the application looks much better. The one you get (41dbu) from the FCC link on WKBN's 4/20/06 application looks like your own 200KW STA on WFMJ-DT! Maybe there's a problem with how they generate those maps...such a difference would not make any sense.

Either way, if I can be assured that the current situation is not changing, I'm definitely OK with that. I was just worried that WKBN was about to move the thing down the tower and limit the coverage. It sure appeared that way from the filing, without knowledge of the situation on the tower itself. Can either you or Tom clear that up?

Thanks for the help with this. As I said, I hope it's not as bad as the FCC maps make it look. If it's not changing, it's not bad at all.
post #342 of 1952
It's great to hear that WKBN is up and running, but unfortunately I get my HD exclusively from Armstrong, and they haven't yet begun relaying the feed (or WYFX's HD Fox for that matter). Any updates on the digital cable situation?
post #343 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmr0240 View Post

It's great to hear that WKBN is up and running, but unfortunately I get my HD exclusively from Armstrong, and they haven't yet begun relaying the feed (or WYFX's HD Fox for that matter). Any updates on the digital cable situation?

From WKBN's own Tom Zocolo last Friday in this very thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WKBN Chief View Post

As far as the WYFX HD is concerned, we do have an agreement to provide Armstrong Cable with that signal via fiber and that should be in place in a week or two.

I would assume WKBN HD would show up, too.
post #344 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inundated View Post

Either way, if I can be assured that the current situation is not changing, I'm definitely OK with that. I was just worried that WKBN was about to move the thing down the tower and limit the coverage. It sure appeared that way from the filing, without knowledge of the situation on the tower itself. Can either you or Tom clear that up?

Thanks for the help with this. As I said, I hope it's not as bad as the FCC maps make it look. If it's not changing, it's not bad at all.

I double checked the database. The RCAGL is at 1200 feet where it is actually mounted now for the new STA. 1332 feet where it was originally would put it awfully close to WMXY-FM and the microwave recieve antennas. When Tom gets back from NAB he'll be able to clarify. I'm working with 1999 knowledge from when I left.

Like I've stated before, those coverage maps are a guide only. Especially the contour maps which are based on height above average terrain. The key word there is AVERAGE. If you're in a valley that exceeds the AVERAGE all bets are off. That's why the Longley-Rice maps are better since they take terrain into account in 1 or 2 kilometer blocks, but still not perfect.
post #345 of 1952
OK, everyone can relax. The WKBN-DT antenna is not moving. The STA is where the antenna was installed from day one. Keep in mind that the construction permit (CP) was granted from an application that was filed back in '99 by the original owners of WKBN. That was slightly before my time as Chief at WKBN. Often in a situation like this, for application purposes, you pick the highest spot on the tower or even the top of the tower, weather it will physically work, or not, and go from there. Once you get through any interference issues (and we had a couple) and your application is approved, if you have to go down a little, its no big deal. But if you try and go up and your coverage area increases, even very slightly, all interference issues start over.
post #346 of 1952
Tom, have you had any reports form viewers of WKBN-DT near Pittsburgh?

The 2nd map that Inundted posted looks like WYTV's coverage map
post #347 of 1952
Quote:


1332 feet where it was originally would put it awfully close to WMXY-FM

Ha, "MIX FM". One time I was able to pick-up 3 MIX FM stations at the same location in Seven Hills: Youngstown, Canton (or was it Mansfield) and Cleveland. They were running a "nationwide" contest where the 1,000th caller to an 800 number won $10,000. The cue to call was a song by The Police. Sure enough all 3 Mix'es were playing the song within a few seconds of each other.
post #348 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael P 2341 View Post

Tom, have you had any reports form viewers of WKBN-DT near Pittsburgh?

The 2nd map that Inundted posted looks like WYTV's coverage map

There has been at least one report near Washington, PA. Here's a link to the Pittsburgh thread so you can see for yourself: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=188135
post #349 of 1952
WKBN Chief - Is your signal directional in any way? For some reason, I can consistently receive WFMJ-DT here in North Canton at 200 kW but the only time I have been able to receive WKBN-DT is during Sat night's tropo event, when everything was blasting in from the east. Admittedly, I am only using a rinky-dink indoor antenna (which I plan to correct soon). Your stick looks like it is about a mile or so south of WFMJ's, right?
post #350 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackKnight View Post

WKBN Chief - Is your signal directional in any way? For some reason, I can consistently receive WFMJ-DT here in North Canton at 200 kW but the only time I have been able to receive WKBN-DT is during Sat night's tropo event, when everything was blasting in from the east. Admittedly, I am only using a rinky-dink indoor antenna (which I plan to correct soon). Your stick looks like it is about a mile or so south of WFMJ's, right?

That's right. We are just a little south of WFMJ's tower. And no, we are not using a directional antenna. However, since the antenna is side mounted on the tower, the combination can produce some 'directionality.' I hesitate bringing that point up because the results are very unpredictable and usually slight at UHF frequencies.
post #351 of 1952
Thank you, both "chiefs", for the clarification. The whole thing wouldn't have spooked me out had it not been for that pretty bad looking FCC Service Area map for the CP request. That map (the second in my original message) is what comes up when you click on the link for the WKBN-DT application of 4/20/06. I double checked after I posted it. As I posted after, the map you guys attached to the CP request looked more reasonable. And the other map didn't look right for a mere 33 meter move down at the same power level.

If you're not movin' the thing, I'm fine.

My indoor amplified antenna placement is somewhat tricky here. Last night, I found the "sweet spot" and was getting the station solidly all night from 7 PM on. Tonight, I can't duplicate that spot, and I can't get a full lock, though it tries to come in sometimes.

I'm sure if I managed to put a 4228 or something out on the deck, I could get a full time lock on it. Thank you for letting us know what's going on!
post #352 of 1952
Getting a lock on WKBN-DT again tonight. I think I have roughly a quarter-inch area where I can point the thing, and keep nudging it.

And the only reason I posted that - I notice that there is full PSIP info up for both 27-1 and 27-2! Good work!
post #353 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackKnight View Post

For some reason, I can consistently receive WFMJ-DT here in North Canton at 200 kW but the only time I have been able to receive WKBN-DT is during Sat night's tropo event, when everything was blasting in from the east.

I'm near Kent State Stark and get both on an inside
antenna... 4 bowtie array amplified... during Saturday's
tropo opening I got WTAE-DT, WPXI-DT, WCWB-DT and
an unidentified CBS on 25-1...

Antenna alignment so the 6 MHz DTV signal is flat from
bottom to top is tricky... a spectrum analyzer is handy...

Ed...
post #354 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by wd8kct View Post

...and
an unidentified CBS on 25-1...Ed...


That would be KDKA-DT, analog channel 2.
post #355 of 1952
Quote:


and
an unidentified CBS on 25-1...

I agree, that would be KDKA. There have been posts regarding the interference that KDKA-DT and WVIZ-TV have for those who reside between the two. If I were in North Canton my 921 would have read "rf 25-1" insted of the true call letters and remapped channel number. I'm willing to bet the reason 25-1 was unidentified was due to the WVIZ interference messing with KDKA's PSIP.
post #356 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by wd8kct View Post

I'm near Kent State Stark and get both on an inside
antenna... 4 bowtie array amplified... during Saturday's
tropo opening I got WTAE-DT, WPXI-DT, WCWB-DT and
an unidentified CBS on 25-1...

Antenna alignment so the 6 MHz DTV signal is flat from
bottom to top is tricky... a spectrum analyzer is handy...

Ed...

Ed - What kind of reception do you get on WKYC-DT with that setup? I am near the intersection of Pittsburg & Portage in North Canton with an outdoor antenna on a 30-foot mast pointed at the Parma antenna farm and I cannot receive WKYC-DT consistently.
post #357 of 1952
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackKnight View Post

Ed - What kind of reception do you get on WKYC-DT with that setup?

Only have amplified rabbit ears for VHF...
WOIO DTV-10 is usually OK...
Rarely do I see WKYC DTV-2...
Ed...
post #358 of 1952
Is there a possibility that electrical wires or transformers are making my reception drop? In the past few weeks, both my off-air TV and radio reception have really taken a hit. I'm down to about 4 AM radio stations and mostly buzzing. My FM is a little better, but I've lost a few Cleveland and Pittsburgh stations and Youngstown is starting to fade. As for my DTV signals, WFMJ is about 75% with more breakups and WYTV and WNEO are both less than 30% and not worth turning on. Is there a reason for this? I changed pre-amps on my TV antenna, but I notice the buzzing on the radio in my car and on other radios.
post #359 of 1952
I originally posted this in the Cleveland forum with the title "A Little Inspiration to Aim a Rooftop Antenna at Youngstown". Many of you may already be aware of this if you can pickup both the Cleveland and Youngstown stations (and may be more so for those who can also get the Pittsburgh stations that carry the NFL regular season games).

A few pages back (in the Cleveland forum), I posted the NFL coverage maps that JPKirby posts:
http://www.gribblenation.net/personal/jp/2005maps.html

I took some time to find those instances last season where either WKBN or WYFX were carrying different games than WOIO or WJW. I came up with a total of 12 more games that would have been available OTA had WKBN-DT (with it's WYFX subchannel) been on the air (or in the case of those in Youngstown did receive the games in analog).

The majority of the different games were the FOX games, however there were 4 instances of different games from CBS. There were 5 instances where FOX had a "singleheader" but if you combined the offereings on WJW and WYFX you would have ended up with a doubleheader for that week. There were 3 instances where the Cleveland affilliate had no game when the network was supposed to have a doubleheader (thanks to NFL OTA rules) where the Youngstown affilliate had both games. There was one week (week 11) where both networks had different and/or extra games (a total of 5 games available OTA with only one duplicate between the two markets).
post #360 of 1952
Michael, thank you for the information. Some of us are fortunate in that we're able to pick up digital broadcasts from Cleveland, Youngstown, Pittsburgh and other locations; however, I am not able to receive the digital broadcasts of WKYC, WOIO and WTAE. I hope the coverage maps are available for the 2006 season.
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