control 4 lineup  

Not all of the products or the software is ready and shipping at this time. It does look cool but I was more excited by Netstreams and their announcement that they would support transmission of all video formats, including HD, on their network by next year.

Crestron also displayed a future product using 802.14 protocol ( but not Zigbee ) so wireless Cresnet is around the corner.

Netstreams is going the route of traditional A/V distribution via non traditional means. I am more excited by their concept of using Ethernet protocols to carry A/V and digital amps using DSP to match the amp to the speaker. Next year full HDTV over the network. Might those video signals also use DSP to calibrate the signal to the display's input?

Control 4 seems to be following the Phast approach of centrally located analog amps and maxtix audio switchers but they can also use ZigBee protocol to transmit both control and audio to a room. But unlike Netsreams, no DSP to mate amp to the speaker's drivers, no HDTV carried uncompressed over the network, but you do get to control lights and thermostats.

And when Crestron finally ships the wireless lighting system it showed using propritary 802.14 protocol Cresnet will also support wireless distribution. The difference will be that Crestron has a record of producing products which not only sound cool but also work. Netsreams may be the better A/V distribution system of the three at any rate. But the Control 4's price point will excite most members on this board-but will the software and products work or will this be Phast redux?

Alan

I do not know if they provided price sheet but at their presentation they claimed typical retail would be installed price between 5-10k. I did not ask specific price per device. There are only 3 user devices; a RF remote, a small touch panel and a 3 button keypad. They really pushed the RF remote over the other options. Wire seems to be CAT5e to control units. The equipment resembled Phast in design concept and wiring save for the wireless products. If you go wireless you will need to bring 120v to the touch panel!!

As nothing was available for shipment ( supposedly they signed an affidavit promising to ship at least those products or systems they put up for awards this month )I would hope that that they keep their word and ship something by the end of the month. I suspect the wireless audio breakout boxes may take a bit longer. I will wager anything that the software is also not completely ready although weather this means design software of equipment firmware I do not know. I'd give them a call and find out whose repping the product.

Alan

I don't think you got all of the information at Control 4. They are leaps and bounds ahead of Netstreams in a lot of ways. They are doing so much more than Netstreams and are really trying to compete directly with AMX and Crestron (As well as Escient, Request, Netstreams, Lutron and several others.) Control 4 will be shipping in late October or the latest in November. I installed Phast back in the 90's and know about the issues. I'm betting that I get my Control 4 opening order before I get my Netstreams Digilinx order. I may be wrong but that's my prediction. The financial backing of Control 4 is huge and should really help them be a prominent player.

Control 4 also announced a deal to incorporate their amps with some of Speakercraft's line of speakers. This will create a system that lays out similarly to Netstreams. I'm not sure about the DSP incorporation that Netstraeams has shown in the Polk speakers, but I was also not overly impressed with the Polk demo either. It didn't sound bad by any means, but I've heard just as good if not easily better with typical installations. Control 4 said they would likely create a standalone unit that works in the same way as well to be used with other speaker brands. Currently the Control 4 audio points and speaker points offer the same kind of Netsreams layout if that is what one wants to do (non-centralized). Control 4 also stated that HD video distribution is their next logical step in 2005. Like I said, the money behind Control 4 is huge and this time it is not AMX footing the bill (AMX was a 51% owner of Phast from the beginning and forced the creators of Phast to sell the 49% outright to AMX in 1997. The owners actually tried to buy Phast back from AMX for twice as much as they were paid for it and were told no. It's likely because Phast was controlling most of the high-end home automation market in 1995-97. Even with it's problems, it was cutting into AMX's product sales. That's why once Phast was 100% owned by AMX, they doubled the price of Phast overnight and never improved it with any great degree. They wanted it dead. And then they decided to try the whole Panja thing - ouch! Thank goodness AMX is back on track...it was a rough ride for sure.)

Control 4's utilization of Zigbee is definitely cool. They are also using WIFI as well as traditional networking to distribute their audio to speakers directly (wireless is something Netreams is not doing - you have to use their switch). Here's the details on Control 4's wireless speaker point which is quite small:

click here

It also includes an analog input to accommodate a legacy device that is in a remote zone (local source). This is then added to the system for distribution to the rest of the house. All done on WIFI - oh yeah, did I mention how cool that is!

I also agree with the last point that Control 4's pricing is going to appeal to the masses, unlike anything that AMX, Crestron & Lutron can provide. Crestron's wireless lighting is going to be expensive, just like Lutron's (and I sell both.) Full retail on the 1000W wireless Zigbee dimmer from Control 4 is $99 - yep $99! The pricing is going to be hard for most to resist. "IF" they can come to market with their proposed product line and include fairly stable software that consistently improves over the first 6 months, they will be very prominent in this market. Of course the hardware has to be rock solid as well.

I planned on discussing the whole Control 4 product line in a few days on AVS to get people's reactions. So, I look forward to a lively discussion. These guys could really change the face of Home Automation for the masses if they don't screw up.

thanks,

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Brent:
Great post. Perhaps I should have written that they wish to be an inexpensive whole automation system rather than you get to control lights and thermostats. There is actually a big difference in how both companies will or can do audio/video distribution over a network and while I think it indisputable that Netstreams has the better product and paradigm price will drive the sale in the end and Control 4 will be less expensive. So perhaps quality is a red herring. Netsreams does not wish to be a whole house control system, merely a A/V control system and I am not certain they want to control the TV- but they may need to. As every touch panel on the Netstreams bus is its own switch you can add an Ethernet bridge and turn the system into wireless with any off the shelf 802.11 product. Installing an Ethernet bridge is really not so different from the " audio points" that Control 4 will eventually offer. There is no central processor in Netstreams so if you only need two zones you order two control points. You will still need the audio matrix in Control 4 but again given the price points it may not be important. And they have a module for getting local sources on the system much like the audio point so.....

Control 4 is a closed system as of this time and for the foreseeable future. Eventually their software will permit customization but with what software and how has still to be decided. There is no customization at all after you leave the prepackaged GUI and source code. They seem to have thought of a lot but if they have left some feature out you find important or your client needs then you are SOL. But again, given the price point this may be irrelevant. I am not certain their wireless remote/3 button keypad is the correct user interface for every instance and the touch panel they are offering is still quite small considering that they are intending to offer whole house control. Again, considering the price points this, too, may be moot. Ultimately the success and failure of this product will be predicated upon their ability to provide quality software and hardware that works. Your "if" is everything and at the moment we have vaporware so who knows?

I would advise more caution than you for two reasons: A) Phast had lots of software and hardware glitches that required lots of unpaid beta testing and trouble shooting by the installation company installing that product. They certainly hooked lots of guys who love technology with their concept last time and then put them through the wringer. I am certain they ( and you know who they are ) made money but did the companies they left holding the bag who believed the promises they made. They have certainly created a brush fire this time, as well. However, the masses, early majority consumers or what ever you call them define value not only by price but reliability. Ultimately the success or failure of Control 4 will depend on their ability to provide working, glitch free software and hardware that works without the many, many issues that plagued Phast, even if most of them were ultimately solved. It is one thing if your music system has limitations or tics but your lights? How long did an all off command take on a larger Phast lighting system?

B) There is really no benefit to jumping on the band wagon with such a system and company. Control 4 does seem to be adequately funded whereas Phast had to get along on a wing and a prayer. That may bode well for their making the product work. But we also have Smart House as a paradigm and they too had lots of money behind them. Should I mention betamax? It had a large company behind it but failed but at least the technology worked. These are vastly different technologies and products but money alone is not the answer. Build quality counts. If they can deliver on their promises they may well "shake up the face of home automation." They could just as well break the hearts and bank accounts of the companies installing their product. I see no reason not to recommend caution and to try to quell some of the hype they created. Let them prove they can deliver on their promises before we go forth like the disciples and try to proselytize on their behalf.

I think I will back off and lets others have their say at this point.

Alan

The benefits of 802.14 is that each transmitter/receiver is also a repeater. The more devices the better the network performance. I would not think a ultra high end system would be controlled by Control 4. For a ultra hi-end system would you not want complete integration control that a AMX/Crestron would permit?

Control 4's wireless protocol is different from 802.11 and should not be an issue even if they are competing for specturm space, but I would not recomend running Kaleidescape via a WAP. I would think you would run Kaleidescape on a subnet. The actual answer could depend on the bandwidth of the network you are running and its network archetecture. Do you know the What is the bandwidth of thet networks you install or how switches can can be used to manage network performance? Do you certify the networks you install or have access to a certification tester. A network is a system not a wire. Just because you ran CAT6 does not mean you will obtain CAT8 performance. In reality there will be rew if any issues unless you ran out of bandwidth. At 20MHz/stream max ( 19.6 rounded up )I would think you would have more issues from an X-Box unless you approached the theoetical limits of client/players and all were accessing the server at the same time. This is not a likely situation is the typical Kaleidescape instalation, considering the likely end user. While you may feel the equipment discuessed here is rather pedestrian the control systems discussed are amoung the best available.

As there are quite a few participants here who are quite skilled at networking I should think you would be well advised to continue here and wait for their responses.

I have participated in quite a few discussions of Lutron and Crestron lighting - perhaps this is not sufficiently high end in your opinion - so I think it a bit unfair to categorize the discussion here as limited to X-10. Indeed had the talk some years back of incoporating spread spectrum into the power line protocol acutaully happened it might have become a much more robust protocol and a more reliable system. Moreover price would indicate that Kaleidescape is high end yet its perfromance specs are in fact not all that different from a home brew master/Thin client server. And if one used a high end video card that included DVI or HDMI output the spec might actually exceed what Kaleidescape is enabled to do at this moment in time.

On a personal note, I have felt uncomfortable with the snobery on the high end forums so if you value my particpation and find it in any way helpful you will have to continue posting here as this is where I have chosen to play. I have always found the degree of technical knowledge found amoung this board's paricipants quite amazing. You might wish to give us a try before prejudging the knowledge base or interests of the group.

Alan

Which, as we all know, means it'll likely be March of next year.

I thought that Netstreams recommended against doing that though...I was told that they can't guarantee service if one adapts it to a WIFI system. I may be misinformed.

You don't actually have to have the audio matrix in the Control 4 environment. For instance, if you want a lighting system, all you need is dimmers and keypads. No processor is necessary. The processor is embedded into all of the keypads and the Zigbee remote control (no processor and no aiming of the remote.) The Control4 Amplifier Switch Controller, model AVM-8ASC1-B seen here allows you to input sources into the system for typical distribution and amplification via its 6x6 matrix switcher as well as control the power status properly with the built in power sync capabilities. In addition to that all inputs are available digitally via the network to distribute over Ethernet or WIFI and amped later, near the speaker. It's like having 6 Netstreams legacy adapters built into one as well as a 6x6 matrix switcher and 8 channel amp - 2 outputs are unamplified. It's quite a neat piece.

It's not completely closed. You will be able to design your own skins for the GUI and this will allow the specialist to really set themselves apart. The idea of adding the control to the TV screen and using a remote is not new. TIVO is probably the king of this. Their menu is simple as long as you can use up, down, left, right and select. Control 4 is going for the same idea but on a much larger scale. It sure makes sense to use the TV. They also disclosed that their source code will be modifiable via C++ by CES. They are hosting a high-end developers conference then as well. They also have included generic devices to be modified so that any TCP/IP, serial or IR controllable device can be added to the system. If all else fails relays and contacts can be used. It really is an open system. Also, I have to give praise to Control 4 for incorporating a system that will upload any added files for devices not currently supported in the system to be used by all. Their concept for remote access and satellite channel lineup changes is also pretty cool. They will have a way for a person that only has a dynamic IP at their house to easily connect to their system from the office or away by routing that through Control 4's headquarters so to speak. If DirecTV or XM, etc. changes station numbers for any of their channels, the system is self correcting and updates itself once a week. Another neat feature I've wanted for a while.

I think you missed the 10.5" wireless panel that will have both a table top and wall docking option. You can see it here. Did I mention is has an MSRP of $1999.00. Unbelievable. The 3.5" in-wall mini touchpanel will also offer a tabletop kit for desks, etc. They will also offer a monochrome LCD similar to the 3.5" color unit but it's not a touch screen and adds a few static buttons. I think retail on it is $295 or less. Finally, they'll have a 2, 3 and 6 button engraveable keypad with multicolor LEDs (3 to be exact, but they can combine for multiple colors and cool status feedback options.) So, if you want lighting control, you can get as many dimmers as you need and a 10.5" wireless panel and nothing else. If you want to add HVAC, just get their $199 thermostat and nothing else. BTW, no additional wire to the thermostat is needed because it works on Zigbee (802.15.4 mesh network) too.

Very good points that I tend to agree with, my only but is that as a dealer I feel it necessary to gamble a little with new technology, especially with something this big. They are only planning to have 400-500 dealers. That's not that many and I would hate to be denied a dealership opportunity because 3 other successful guys in town already opted to join up. AMX has close to 1000 dealer and Crestron has a lot more than that. Being that I'm in all 3 camps really keeps me informed as to who is doing what. I had a lot of pain in the Phast years. I started business in 1993 and when Phast came out that was the right time for me to expand into "greater" things. It stung me on several occasion, but typically because it was ahead of it's time and didn't have the backbone to support the concepts. Now the backbone is there with current Ethernet, WIFI and 802.15.4 mesh technology (Zigbee) standards. The Phastlink protocol was terrible and hopefully they learned their lesson by going with standard technologies this time. Proceed with caution - Yes. I hope they can succeed, especially being that I'm one of their new dealers :)

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Hey Dean, not every company is like yours. :) We can give these guys a little credit to do what they say their going to do until proven otherwise.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Well, if you mean they are trying to address every aspect of systems integration from lighiting to A/V to climate etc. then that statement could be considered accurate. NetStreams is currently focused on A/V only. If you mean the A/V side of things is more advanced than NetStreams, I would not jump to that conclusion.
Well, what does that mean exactly? Do you know how much cash they have on hand? Do you know not only who is providing the financial backing but how much backing they have committed, and how much they have used? Without those concrete facts and more, we don't really know anything, do we? Forgive me for being skeptical when I've heard the same thing a ton of other times, the most recently from XPlore Technologies, who claimed to have HUGE pockets behind them. They were bouncing checks a few years later.

Were you able to keep a straight face when you typed that? I'm supposed to be excited that I can apply a skin to their interface (not that that's a bad thing)?

:| :| :| - That's my attempt at a straight face.

The skin "changeability" is more than changing the look - quite different from programs like musicmatch or winamp. It allows for complete visual design and that's what I'm talking about as to what allows dealers to differentiate themselves with custom designs for homeowners. It will likely be regular flash programming and this is good.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Well, for one thing, it's only barely within their control, as it is only barely within most company's control. The more money that went in up front, the more pressure there is to promise deliveries that cannot be met, or which are met only in name (i.e. lots of bugs.) So I'm not implying that they are evil or lying, I'm just saying that for a system of this size/complexity, a target release date that is out a couple months is fairly meaningless in most cases, and that they (like pretty much most companies in the same situation) are throwing darts at a calendar and hoping for the best.

OTOH, what do you mean by like my company? I don't make big, splashy pre-announcements of major features months ahead of time, and I'm always honest about the squishy nature of any target dates.

Dean, I'm just giving you a hard time because you're somewhat a competitor to Control 4. Don't be offended-none intended.

Control 4 has been working for 2 years on this and has a large team of engineers and software guys involved. At some point, no matter how large of a company the release date becomes relevant. Their whole plan from the beginning was to be very secretive until CEDIA 2004 and to start shipping in a month after their announcements. Internally, they may have already pushed this back from CEDIA 2003 or CES 2004. If they pull it off it will be unique nonetheless, but not impossible as is sounds like your implying.

They have a first round of gear being delivered in October to the early adopters and a second round of gear coming in November to fulfill the masses. Any back ordered situations will be resolved by December, per the owners. Yes, we can wait and see if they follow through, but I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt until the prove otherwise.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

I've got nothing against that but when I'm far more interested in making the UI simple for my customer - I consider that the ULTIMATE advertisement for my firm. When I look at what the UI's these companies are "auto-creating" and I see that they are breaking my most basic rules of interface design I cringe. Like using symbols instead of good old-fashioned words that people that can read (symbols combined with words = good, symbols with no words = VERY BAD).

I agree, but remember Netsteams is only focused on audio currently and video is only a promise in the future. Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to get my Digilinx demo and go at it. There might be the possibility to combine parts from the two companies on a single job. Any thoughts?

Here's some of the information I've read and researched (be sure to look into those VC companies - they're massively funded):

###

CONTROL4 RAISES $15 MILLION IN SERIES B FUNDING
TARGETS HOME AUTOMATION MARKET

For more info visit www.control4.com

Control4, a home automation systems company, announced it has raised approximately $15 million in a Series B funding round. The financing will be used to introduce a comprehensive portfolio of home automation products.

-New Investor Frazier Technology Ventures Joins Thomas Weisel Venture Partners and vSpring Capital to Complete Funding Round; Industry Experts Develop Breakthrough Portfolio of Wireless Products That Can Be Installed In Any Home-

Draper, Utah – Control4, a home automation systems company, today announced it has raised approximately $15 million in a Series B funding round. Frazier Technology Ventures led the round with further participation by existing investors Thomas Weisel Venture Partners and vSpring Capital. Len Jordan, General Partner of Frazier Technology Ventures, has been appointed to Control4’s Board of Directors. The financing will be used to introduce a comprehensive portfolio of home automation products that, for the first time, can be retrofitted into any home.

“Control4`s executive team has deep experience in home automation and networking. They have developed a compelling line of products spanning safety, entertainment, security and comfort that will transform home automation, making it available and affordable to a much broader consumer audience. The underlying software platform, incorporating a standards-based wireless technology, enables multiple products to easily interact with other leading consumer electronic products,” said Len Jordan, General Partner, Frazier Technology Ventures. “The rapidly growing trends in broadband adoption, home wireless networking, digital entertainment and home security/automation, create a compelling convergence of consumer needs and a significant opportunity for Control4.”

In September, Control4 will unveil more than 20 innovative wired and wireless IP-based products that can, both individually and collectively, enable a wide range of automation capabilities in any home. The family of products will first be introduced at the CEDIA trade show in Indianapolis, Indiana (Sept.10-12) and will offer exceptional ease-of-installation and the ability to customize home automation without advanced programming expertise.

“We are building sophisticated, but simple home automation systems that are affordable, adaptable to any lifestyle and easy to install in any new or existing homes,” said Will West, Chief Executive Officer, Control4. “Home automation is no longer only for the affluent. With these innovative new systems, homeowners can begin to automate their homes for less than $500 and then expand as budget allows.”

Control4 will be the first company to offer full automation to any existing home. Its wireless products can be installed without infrastructure changes that traditional home automation products require. A standards-based approach also allows products from virtually all third-party vendors to integrate with the system.

Control4 was founded in 2003 by a team with extensive experience in residential automation systems and an in-depth background in networking. Before founding Control4, Will West and Eric Smith founded PHAST Corporation in 1995. PHAST is broadly recognized as developing the first home control system with an intuitive interface for programming and daily use. PHAST was sold to AMX in 1997. The same team later founded and built STSN into the largest provider of broadband services in the hospitality industry, serving more than 2,000 hotels and more than 250,000 guest rooms worldwide.

About Control4
Control4 makes home automation a practical option for any home by combining innovative technology with today’s wired and wireless networking standards. Led by a team of experienced industry professionals, the company focuses its expertise on providing a new breed of home automation solutions that are affordable, non-invasive, easy to install and designed to adapt to any lifestyle.

About Frazier Technology Ventures
Frazier Technology Ventures (FTV) is a Seattle-based, early-stage venture capital firm focused on wireless, communications, media and enterprise technologies. The partnership has deep, executive operating background at ATT, Cube, Immunex, LSILogic, Microsoft, RealNetworks, Visio and other successful startups. FTV is part of 13-year-old Frazier Healthcare and Technology Ventures and has over $900M in capital under management.

About Thomas Weisel Venture Partners
Thomas Weisel Venture Partners (TWVP) is an early stage venture capital firm that invests in emerging information technology companies. Based in Menlo Park, California, TWVP`s specific industries of focus include infrastructure and application software (including open source), security, semiconductors, communications, storage, wireless technologies and Internet services. In working with portfolio companies and analyzing new investment opportunities in these related industries, TWVP often develops opinions about new technologies and markets that represent attractive investment opportunities for the Fund. For more information, visit www.twvp.com.

About vSpring Capital
vSpring is a traditional early-stage venture capital firm with over $180 million of committed capital under management. The firm specifically targets information technology and life sciences companies headquartered in the Intermountain West region. Its primary areas of focus include enterprise software, networking and communications, security software, Internet, mobile computing, drug discovery, drug delivery, diagnostics and medical devices, all markets where the firm has deep experience.

# # #

Also Will West is still the chairman and founder of STSN. That company has been highly successful as noted above. They are going to use some of the technologies created for STSN and utilize it within Control 4's updating and access capabilities. Although Phast had it's problems, STSN has a proven track record.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

Yes symbols alone are typically bad - except for light bulbs and CNN/ABC/FOX logos, etc., but I guess those have the letters too - :) Control 4 will be able to do it both ways.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

15 million, for a company of that size, isn't squat really. That's not even remotely massively funded. They are a little better off I guess since they are located in a low rent area of the planet, but with I guess 100 people on the payrole, and it sounds like there are or pretty close to that, they would go through that in no time just with salaries. 100 people even at an average of $50K a year, and that's probably low, is 5 million bucks, and the real cost of a $50K employee is probably closer to $75K a year, which is 7.5 million bucks a year.

And that's just salaries and doesn't count the endless other expenses. I wouldn't doubt that they would go through that 15 million within maybe a year, and they'll be 3 or 4 months into before they bring out their first products.

I'm not trying to overly naysay them, but you are sounding more like a cheerleader than a customer.

Dean this is just one round of funding and the point is this: They have a lot of money available to them and aren't going broke anytime soon like Xplore. I heard numbers from key people in Control 4 that funding was in the $50-$60 million range so far. If there ever was a cheerleader for a company it's definitely not me. I think you should look in the mirror.

Let's keep the thread on topic

Brent Huskins
Media Design

My product can do the same. But that's not really the point. The point is that you guys are acting like they've already won, when they've not delivered squat, while people like me are constantly slammed even after we've been delivering for a considerable time. And that's fine, each to hims own, but I don't think that posting basic calculations as to burn rate vs. capital falls into the negativity category, it falls into the facts category.

I'm SUPPOSED to be a chearleader for my own product, obviously. My customers, OTOH, are supposed to judge it based on utility to them (and delivered utility for the most part.)

BTW, there were some posts erased above... Not sure why (and not mine)

Dean,

EVERYONE gets slammed. Have you seen the threads on Immersive? Look at my posts over on Remote Central about this product. I'm hardly drooling all over it. Brett is ready to jump on board. He's excited about the product, call it cheerleading if you want. No one is slamming you any more than anyone else and if they are it's because of the way you approach things.

I think you're dreaming when you say that your "product" can do the same. You don't offer the same type of product. You only offer software. I didn't think your software only product was self-configuring through an interview process. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Who's posts were deleted...I looked back and didn't notice any.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

He didn't say anything about self-configuration through an interview process, so I wasn't making any claim about that. And if you really mean 'self-configuration' that could only happen through self-discovery and that's not going to happen with the bulk of real world devices. If you mean by taking the user through a setup process, that's coming soon, and a lot of the supporting work has already been completed.

I think that the post deleted was one of QQQ's agreeing with me about the burn rate post, but he probably felt he was on dangerous ground agreeing with me too much and pulled it.

And yes, our product is software, but you are not prevented by law from buying the hardware that it needs, any more than you are prevented from buying the projector that Control4 needs in order to control a projector. In many ways, the flexibility to choose the hardware you want to use is a plus, not a minus, though it has it's minuses as well.

I think a big difference between Control4 and Netstreams is that Netstreams is distributing UNCOMPRESSED digital audio, Control4 is not. It's the quality of the sound that separates them. Control4 is trying to do a complete automation system right off the bat..it's WAY cool.

I would like to use BOTH systems on the same network. At first glance, I don't see why that isn't possible.

Control4 lighting, Netstreams audio, then video. Maybe even have AMX in the mix, too. They ALL use TCP/IP.

Eric