Minneapolis, MN - OTA - Page 8

Perhaps this has been already suggested,but the quality of the tuner makes a HUGE difference in the reception of ATSC channels.The newer (5th generation?) models have much improved performance. In an apartment,multipath would be your biggest enemy. New tuners reject or actually reuse reflected(multipath) signals. A new tuner might save you a bunch of experimenting with antennas?

Hello janasman & ddingle,

Yes, I did make sure the cross-over points were well insulated by adding some shrink tubing.

As for the tuner, I'm not sure what generation it is. It's a Digital Stream model I purchased from Radio Shack in late April or early May of this year. All I know is it worked great at my home with a simple loop antenna siting on a shelve above the TV and the Digital Stream converter box. No muss. No fuss.

While my son and I are not sure why we can't keep and hold a decent TV signal in Minneapolis, we are starting to suspect that his apartment may have plaster walls. I'm no expert on plaster construction, but my research indicates that plaster is commonly applied to a grid of wood lath or wire mesh. If it turns out to be plaster over a wire mesh, that may explain a lot of our troubles.

As always, thanks for your ideas and feedback.

Wow, in Rochester, we are going through page after page in the OTA thread, where is everyone from the TC? I am getting some of the TC channels pretty reliable, so that is ultra cool..... What is the projected changes coming in the TC after the analog shutdown?

When you have a CM 4221 in your attic getting every channel you'd ever want with no problems, there isn't a whole lot to discuss, I guess... (they also have separate cable threads and hdtvtwincities.com)

I was wondering if when the transition occurs will the stations increase their xmitting power. I use an antenna in my attic right now and my digital reception is fantastic on my new Sony HDTV along with my new TIVO HD. Both the TV and the TIVO have VERY good HD tuners from what I can see.

I'm worried about when a lot of snow is on the roof etc., during the winter. What will happen to my signal. BTW, I tried a CM4221 in my attic and returned it cause it worked for crap. Main issue is chan 9 and 11. I just the other day got a look at the new CM4228 antenna and it's to large to go up into my attic so I cannot use that one but still, the box it comes in still says UHF...What about the convert back to VHF for chan 11 and 9. Doesn't that put a crimp into antenna selection?

Where is everyone!?



Gene

I have both a 4221 and 4228 in my attic and both work well for all channels. I'm not sure why you had problems with the 4221 but I also don't know where you live or how far you are from the towers in Shoreview. I've used both these antennas for years and snow on the roof has no effect on them, so no worries there. The only channel I lose during the occational very servere thunder storms is channel 17. That's because they are only 50,000 watts and electrical interference wipes out their signal.

As far as the 4228 being marked for UHF only, it does very well on upper VHF so I'm not concerned about what happens in February when 9 and 11 move their digital broadcasts to 9 and 11. I have a field strength meter and the 4228 picks up slighly more signal on 9 and 11 then the all channel Radio Shack antenna, which is also in my attic.

If you post what city you live in or miles from the towers, I can offer more advice. Check Antennaweb.org for miles from towers.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The link above shows charts of antenna effectiveness. If you scroll down you will see a chart showing the effectiveness of UHF antennas for receiving VHF channels. Note that the 4228 does well on 9 and 11.

I also get a very watchable signal from analog 9 and 11 on the 4221 though the amount of signal received is much lower compared to the 4228. I am about 17 miles from the towers in Shoreview. I am curious as to what will happen when 9 and 11 move their digital channels to 9 and 11 because the amount of power will be much less on the digital channels then they have now for their analog broadcasts.

Where you locate an antenna in your attic can have a big difference in how well it works. UHF waves exist in pockets. Moving the antenna forward or back from any point can greatly effect how it works. This is due to multipath interferance caused by the antenna picking of reflected signal from the walls and construction material in the attic.

Looks like they replaced the 4228 with a 4228HD model. The new one looks a little wider. That would make some sense as they are trying to capture the lower freq's, channels 7-69.

I live in Ramsey and have the 4221 in the attic, it works great for the HD chanels as of now, they are all in the 95-100 percent signal strength. However the old 11 is ok and 9 is a bust. I may need to change mine. I think the 4228HD is going to be the ticket.

Jay

[quote=Runch Machine;15267131]I have both a 4221 and 4228 in my attic and both work well for all channels. I'm not sure why you had problems with the 4221 but I also don't know where you live or how far you are from the towers in Shoreview. I've used both these antennas for years and snow on the roof has no effect on them, so no worries there. The only channel I lose during the occational very servere thunder storms is channel 17. That's because they are only 50,000 watts and electrical interference wipes out their signal.

Snip...

Thanks for all the information, I have been fooling around with this for a long time and have used antenna web and every tool I can find and also researched many forums etc. I am in East Bloomington, 16 miles from Shoreview, magnetic about 19 - 21 degrees.

Maybe the 4221 provided a weaker signal for me and that was the problem. My current antenna is pretty directional, a combo VHS/UHF antenna and I have re-mounted it and aimed it at 19 degrees as close as I could using a compass. It's mounted on a broomstick attached to the ridge. I moved it to the north end of the attic from it's position at the south end of the attic because I intended to mount a second antenna on a second broomstick which I have mounted there. There is a splitter on the antenna with two coax runs down into the house, one to the first floor office and the second is RG6 running down to the basement where the large screen TV is located. I have a 10 DB amp there, then into a splitter and then to the TV and TIVO. Since pass thru connections seem to be out of favor it required a splitter and I know splitters will hurt signal strength a bit, maybe a few DB. I have worked with Trail TV in Eagan, they are great BTW, and that's where I got a look at the new 4228 updated antenna which probably I would buy if I could get it into my attic. I'd get rid of the splitter and have separate antennas for each run.

I gather from your post that xmitter power is going to go down at the transition....I hope not..cause I think I will then have some issues. BTW, the MSP airport is between me and Shoreview if that makes any difference. I am just south south west of the MOA.

Gene

I'm in Brooklyn Park; my TV Fool data (pre and post-transition) is attached.

As for reception, it's a mixed bag in analog with the rabbit ears I have - and the big problem that I have is this:

I live in an apartment building, exterior construction of brick and plaster (probably lath underneath the plaster as well), the axis running N-S, with a central hallway dividing two rows of apartments, one row east of the hallway, and one row west.

I live on the west facing side, naturally, and, of course, all the antennas (except KPXM, which I often get fairly good reception in analog) are east of me.

Crystal Airport is about a mile away, but I'm not under the flight path, I believe, as the main runway runs NW to SE, and is just about due S of me.

I can't put up any antenna outside, at all - unless anyone has advice on how to use an antenna in an alley, as I'll be evicted without my security deposit.

I have one of the RCA converters from Wal-Mart - and trying it in June, I had lots of problems getting stations in - particularly KSTP (wife's favorite station).

Any ideas on antenna selection - or should I convert my TV's to Punch and Judy theatres now?

You might try a Channel Master CM-4149 Double Bow Tie. I have one in a back upstairs bedroom, and it does well. If you have room for it and your wall orientation lines up with Shoreview, you might try wall mounting a CM-4221 (or even CM-4228).


The RCA DTA-800B is almost universally reviled. Try:

1) Tivax STB-T8 - I've found this converter to have excellent sensitivity and multi-path rejection.

2) Zenith DTT-901 - You can't hardly go wrong with this highly acclaimed CECB.

Larry

PS: For more info on my (and other TC residents) setups, see: http://www.hdtvtwincities.com/forumb...p=33446#p33446.

A friend of mine is in a similar situation. He lives downtown in a converted cement warehouse building. His unit faces south. In order to get a signal he has to pick it up through his apartment and one accross the hall. I set him up with the Zenith DTT-901 and a Terk HDTVi antenna. He gets perfect, reliable reception.

Even more surprising is that his analog reception is terrible, full of ghosts and static. He had tried an older set top box that rarely could lock on. Yet with the Zenith he gets perfect reception. The new tuners are much better than the old ones.

Try the Terk HDTVi and the Zenith receiver and I bet you'll have great results too. The Terk sells for around $25 on Amazon.com. The Zenith converter box is sold at Circuit City.

I too, find the Zenith 901 to lock on things that other tuners will not even show....

Early bird coupon request left me with that as my best value choice for a converter at the time - I would be expelled from this board, arrested by Homeland Security, and sent to Guantanamo or Syria if I repeated here what I said when my coupon expiration deadline came due, with a lot of the options available now not available then - plus reliable reviews were scarcer than a gummi bear's teeth

I need one more converter, so I'll see if I can get another coupon somehow, and try one of the ones that you mentioned.

The Channel Master you mentioned has gotten good reviews elsewhere - the main digital antenna board here, for instance, so I'll see if I can swing that. The Terk - reviews I've seen are a bit more mixed, but may be worth a look.

One question - if the sweet spot in my apartment was in a different room from where my two TV's are (they are in different rooms as well), would it be feasible to split the signal (with or without amplifier) - meaning, would I likely lose too much signal doing so?

Thanks!

I'm running some of my boxes through up to two splitters (-6 db) and getting more than enough signal from my CM-4221. Avoid a distribution amp like the plague . . . I suffered through no end of problems until I removed mine from the mix. They seem to add way more noise than signal.

Larry

Hello, my family and I are moving from Seattle to New Brighton and I was wondering about the OTA reception. Currently I have a CM3678 Yagi Style Antenna, CM7778 Preamp, and a CM9521 rotator. It works great for me here, but I will not be bringing it with me to New Brighton since we purchased a townhouse and I am not allowed to mount it on my roof. Another issue is that the room that will hold my HDTV will be in the basement. I would hate to get cable and was wondering if there are recommendations for indoor antennas that work well in the area and in the basement. Thanks.

New Brighton is within spitting distance of the tower farm, so I would imagine that even a single bow-tie would work . . . but the basement complicates matters. I have a CM-4221 in my attic at about twice your anticipated distance.

Larry

The Twin Cities is great for receiving local channels over the air because all TV stations broadcast from one set of towers in Shoreview, which is about 3 miles from where you are. Even being in the basement should not be a problem. I've helped a lot of people with TV reception and find the the Terk HDTVi is the best. It's available at Amazon.com for about $25. Be sure you do NOT get the amplified version (HDTVa) as you are way too close to need that.

For more info on location and direction to aim, put your address into antennaweb.org.

From KARE11.com

Vikings face possible blackout; thousands of playoff tickets still up for grabs

New Year's Day, football and JJ's Clubhouse. For Mark Sculati and Jay Griep, it's about as good as it gets.

Already, the two are predicting a big win for the Vikings this Sunday. Not that they'll be in the dome watching it. They -- like so many people -- have their reasons for staying home, instead.

"Everybody's got flat-screened T.V.s. It's so nice watching it from the living room on HDTV rather than going to the dome," said Sculati. "I think the economy, I think that has a lot to do with it, why they aren't selling out," said Griep.

Whatever the reason, as of noon Thursday, the Vikings had eight thousand tickets left to sell for their first playoff game against the Philadelphia Eagles this Sunday. The deadline for selling the remaining tickets is 3:30 p.m. Friday.

"We're cautiously optimistic. We have a lot of work to do in the next 24 hours," said Steve LaCroix, Vice President of Sales and Marketing for the Minnesota Vikings. LaCroix says the holidays definitely distracted fans -- preventing them from buying playoff tickets.

But he realizes season ticket holders are also not coming through with purchases. At one point, only 55 percent of season ticket holders were buying playoff tickets. Still, he says, that trend is both costly and convenient for fans hoping to score a few good seats.

"Really the post season is where some really special things can happen. Maybe we did qualify for the playoffs on the last day, but we still won the division. Still hosting the first round game," LaCroix said.

Besides taking a toll on the team's morale, if thousands of tickets remain unclaimed, viewers at home could face a blackout. And, LaCroix says, fans at the dome a greenout.

"I know in Philadelphia there's an active movement to get some of their fans to come to the Twin Cities for the weekend. We want to keep it purple and a home field advantage," LaCroix said.

In the past, the T.V. station that broadcasts the game has stepped in at the last minute to buy the remaining unsold tickets. But LaCroix says stations have previously only purchased about a thousand tickets.

On Thursday night, Fox 9 News, which is airing the game on Sunday, did not comment on what the station plans to do.

Meantime, the team hopes fans come forward before anyone else to ensure a home team advantage during the first home playoff game in eight years.

The team is also clarifying a misconception among fans about having to buy all playoff tickets ahead of time. LaCroix says the team has a "Pay As You Play" program which allows the team to charge a fan's credit card only if the team advances.

Fans who buy their tickets by check will need to request a refund from the team, otherwise the money will go toward tickets for next season.

I have both an RCA DTA800B and an RCA DTA809 both of them picking up all signals with an RCA ANT2000 Smart Antenna in Eagan, 16.5 mile from Shoreview, AND I am getting Channel 41 from Big Lake 40+ miles..., not bad for an non-amplified indoor antenna. Now 1 on the main floor is behind a red cedar sided exterior wall on North Side of house, the DTA809 is upstairs 4 feet from a window, but by compass behind a similar sided wall. The RCA Units are GREAT, easy to set up, nice to use remotes, have worked well in every home and office I have set them up in except one. Our Eagan office, all of 2 miles East northeast of me has stucco walls with metal lathe and a Walgreens and a bank building between our office and Shoreview. So there I used an Insignia and an RCA ANT1450 and get most except 17 and 41 and 45. But everyone prefers the RCA remote.

I tried using my father-in-laws old Antenna Direct roof top antenna for HDTV and 2 RCA DTA800B boxes with out success, no benefit hooking a booster to the RG59 cable as it came in the garage (12 feet from the antenna), but one of the DTA800's could use the boosted signal from the TV closest to the garage. Then I got the Philips with its in-line amp, laid it on a shelf in garage, hooked it up to his antenna network and all three TV's get wonderful signal in Golden Valley, even Ch 41, even the TV 35 feet from the antenna!

In Eagan home, I have an RCA DTA800B on the main floor hooked to an RCA ANT2000. I get wonderful rock steady pictures and no need to move the antenna as I had to do with my previous antennae: Optima (was Jensen now it's GE, this was non-amplified) and a wonderful RadioShack 15-1892 (Starship). Upstairs I have the new RCA DTA809 also hooked up to RCA ANT2000, also rock steady. I get all channels from 16.5 mile s (2,4,5,9,11,17,23,29,and 45) I ALSO get Channel 41 which is 40+ miles away on BOTH TVs! Channel 41 comes in at 12-14% strength but good pictures...the joys of Smart Antenna!
At my Eagan office 2+ miles East north east of me, I elected to use an Insignia due to its better tuner history, and I hooked it to an RCA ANT1450, I get 2,4,5,9,11,23,and 29. Unfortunately we have a Walgreens building 20 feet from the window I need to aim out of, and a 3 story bank building in Line of Sight to the Towers. We are not allowed to mount outside antenna, and the Stucco and steel construction prevents ceiling mount from being any better.
In my St Paul office, have an RCA DTA800B hooked to an old Jensen amplified TV920 and it gets 2,4,5,11,17,23,29,45, +/- 9. This was a real touchy antenna that took an hour to find the spot in the ceiling.
In Golden Valley, hooked a Philips ANT940 on a garage work shelf to an in-house RG59 antenna network and send perfect signals to 1 HDTV and 2 DTA800B boxes, one is 35ft from the antenna! We get ALL channels!
In Eden Prairie, used a Silver Sensor and get all but Channel 41 on an Aquos; same goes for sub-basement bedroom using a GE Futura hooked up to a DTA800B and get ALL but channel 41.
In Bloomington, hooked up an RCA ANT1251 to an RCA DTA800B 35ft away and get all but 41.
I advise using both TVfool.com before going, along with antennaweb.org

"The RCA DTA-800B is almost universally reviled..."

I'm glad to here that the RCA units are working well for you. There are a number of well documented issues with the DTA-800: Lockups, audio dropouts, and others. Postings in the CECB forum document the worst of it. I had one, and have to admit that it did seem more than adequate. However, it was hooked to a ReplayTV box, so the risk of lockups moved me to get a different CECB. Perhaps that was premature on my part...

Larry

PS: If you haven't already done so, you should post your results with the RCA CECB in the CECB forum.

PPS: Having owned a variety of different CECB's, I still rate the Zenith DTT-901 as the best of those I tried. Tivax as second best.

So Theoacme...any luck?
One of my friends in a similar situation approached the neighbor across the hall, volunteered to install an antenna in their window, and split the signal with them. Working great.

Another friend hooked a ClearStream 1 (I don't know why he didn't get a Philips ANT940 for less) to a pole, that he determined the angle and height needed to place out side his window, clip attached to casement of window, and able to get reception as he only had to get higher than the brick as it had a flat roof. And he takes it down before he goes to work. No grief so far.

You are definitely in the Twin Cities Market, need at least a Medium Directional Antenna in you attic or better on your roof, amplified best and UHF/VHF capable as both Channel 9 and 11 will be high VHF after the transition (now up in air but was to be 2/17/09). A Clear Stream 2 should be adequate with a preamplifier.

Hello everyone. I'm looking for some advice here. I currently live in a north west facing townhome in brooklyn park, just north of 610 and just east of Zane. I've been trying to get consistent, reliable OTA reception of the major networks on my TivoHD for quite some time now, and I am starting run out of ideas for what to try next.

I started off with a silver sensor, which worked but needed to be moved every once in a while to maintain decent reception. I then moved to one of the monoprice powered indoor antennas, which worked a bit better than the silver sensor but still suffered from occasional drop outs, especially if someone walked in front of the antenna. Finally I picked up a channel master 4221 which I have mounted behind my tv (roof/exterior mount is not an option). Although some stations come in 100% now, Kare 11 and a few others are still marginal, with very annoying drop outs.

Where do I go from here? It appears as though the tuner in the TivoHD just sucks, as I have two of the Channel Master DTV converters that work flawlessly with just the silver sensor and monoprice antenna mentioned above. Do I buy a amplifier for the channel master? Do I buy the next size up? This is driving me crazy! Any advice is welcomed and appreciated. Thanks!

I think you just diagnosed your own problem . . . since it doesn't get much better than a 4221, I would look at an upgrade for the TivoHD tuner. Also, if you're not already driving the Tivo from it's own dedicated antenna, I would do so. And if you can limp along until the changeover I would do so, since you'll potentially have a new crop of reception issues once the various station move to their final frequencies.

YMMV,

Larry

Your issue is most likely too much signal and multipath since the antenna is indoors. So adding an amp is not needed and more than likely will make it worse. Trying moving your antenna, that's about all you can do. Sounds like the Tivo tuner doesn't handle multipath as well. Are there any firmware updates for the Tivo that may improve upon the multipath issue?

Somthing along the lines of Channel Master 4228 will do you just fine. No need for a 14' antenna.

Channel 9 (KMSP) and channel 11 (KARE) are using channels 26 and 35 for pre-transition digital (currently running right now) but they will be switching back to their VHF-HI channels here at the shutdown, becoming RF channels 9 and 11 again, only in digital this time.. No misinfo, just the government website is not reflecting the change...

Where are you installing your antenna? If outside, the Winegard 7695P would prolly be just fine, no need for the 14' boom.... (a lot more wind load) I would not go with the new 4228, as the reports (that I read) show it to NOT be as good with VHF-HI channels as the old 4228...... At 20 miles, I would NOT bother with an amp either, you may not have KPXM until they move to Shoreview, but from what I have read, they plan on moving ASAP.....