Minneapolis, MN - OTA - Page 12

It makes perfect sense.

Since the HD channels requires several times the total data that the SD stream requires, a poor signal with significant bit-starvation will manifest itself first on the HD stream as the FEC scheme begins to fall behind on error correction.

Since the HD program requires more data and isn't getting it, it degrades first.

Getting 35-36% signal strength on RCA DTA800B using RCA ANT2000...getting pixilation and drop in sound. Was perfect Friday, got great reports on Saturday, getting worse all day. Seems KMSP 9-DT has figured out their sound issues.

So far most of my staff that reporting back issues with Channel 9 to a greater degree than Channel11 seem to be having poor gain on their High VHF side, one added a VHF aerial and two of them finally installed roof top VHF/UHF aerials and are now getting picture perfect signals! Appears another three did better when I had them reduced their indoor VHF Rabbits ears to close to half length and aimed the aerial towards the towers rather than at 90deg (2 can only get to 45deg but both report that adequate). That darn horizontal polarization I guess.

Boy though, channel 45, and 5 really clear and strong now.

One thought I had: isn't the FEC done on the whole 19Mbit carrier, not on a per sub basis? If you have to decode the entire carrier to watch any of the feeds, I do not see where the difference would be. (but I have seen the SD hold up better in person on more then one occasion)

My 9 and 11 signal are down compared to before the switch to VHF. Myantenna is skewed towards UHF,so it is not surprising. Are both 9 and 11 at full power on their new digital frequencies?
thanks

If I may quote myself:

ok here is the deal for me.

Was out of town for the weekend, come back last night, did a rescan and found the new 11 and have a signal strengh at about %70, but 9 was no where to be found.

So with 11 and 9 moving back to VHF Hi and being that I have %70 on 11 should I not get a little something on 9?

I tried 2 tuners and nothing, I even added 9 manualy and still had zero singnal. Maybe they were off for some reason at 9:30ish last night but I highly dought that.

btw I'm in Ramsey, Mn with a outdoor UHF antenna in the attic.

I knew it was going to be a crap shoot with that antenna for 11 and 9 but there cant be that much difference.

Jay

Most UHF antennas have less negative gain at VHF-11 then 9, this could be to blame, but I have also read a lot more issues with KMSP then KARE, so it is hard to say. You should grab either
Winegard HD-1080 (for indoor) or a Winegard HD7694P or AntennaCraft HBU22 (for outdoor install) and should get the VHFs with good signal strength.

Do you get KPXM with ease in Ramsey?

(also, you could try simple VHF rabbitears and see what happens)

Yep I get that one just fine, I dont recall the signal strength. I'm not at home right now but I think the signal strenth was in the 90's.

Matter of fact all the signals I get are in the 90 with exception to 11 at %70 and 9 no where to be found.

That is what I figured as close to the KPXM tower as you are (it is near Big Lake)

I think you will find one of the solutions I have to work well. The VHF rabbitear test, may very will work for you. Do you have Line Of Site (LOS) to the Shoreview towers? (there are 2 next to each other one off by itself, about 1 mile away)

Don't 11 and 9 come from the same Location?

If they do why would I get 11 at %70 and 0% for 9?

To me it would stand to reason I should get at least 50% or so if all things are close to equal.

I know the antenna will be a little short for the freqency but it cant be that bad.

I will play with it some more when I get a chance.

KARE, KSTP, and WCCO have a co-owned tower site called the Telefarm. KMSP has its' own tower about a mile down the road. Plus the fact that the broadcast heights different a bit from KARE to KMSP, plus antenna gain, is different for each channel.

I would pick up a HBU22 and install that. Then all the TC channels should be fairly equal in strength.

Thanks for the information, I will give the antenna I have little twist first to see what happens and if that dont work I will look at another antenna. Dont you think its strange that I cant even get a 1% in signal strength?

But I would not have any other way, I dumped cable a few months ago and only have tv by OTA. It been great except for this!

On some boxes, the scale is not 0%-100%, the Dish CECBs for example, 55% is not a lock, 50% is nothing (just traces of signal), and 60% almost always locks. Where other boxes, the scale is more like 50%-100%

Also, VHF channels on a UHF antenna can be really unpredictable. Depending on the antenna, you could have a slight positive (or slight negative) gain on 11 and seriously negative gain on 9.

As you are getting something on 11, and as most UHF antennas are worse than rabbit ears on VHF, you might experiment with a cheap rabbit ears to see if 9 is there at all. Of course if your UHF antenna is up on the roof, it will be difficult to get and apples-to-apples comparison; you may find you don't get either 9 or 11 with rabbit ears, which proves nothing.

thanks all, I will give a few things a whirl.

On another note is there any Low power stations that are worth messing with? If I'm needed new outdoor antenna maybe one should look at a little bigger one!

TBN recently converter K25IA to digital, so you can get 5 sub channels from TBN, if you are interested in that type of programing. It broadcasts from the mast on the IDS building, so it is bit less high in the air then the Shoreview towers. Also, it only runs 15kW, so at 25+ miles out, it will more then likely take an outdoor antenna.

Yep, get that one already, that one is not really my cup of tea. It will be intresting what the future will bring us.

Oh wow, you must have a decent site. You just need an antenna for VHF-HI and you are good to go!

Did yet another re-scan today and got 5.1, 5.2 back but still no 9.1, 9.2.

KARE11 is by far the weakest of them all. I get 30% vs. 80% on the others. I'm out in Lonsdale.

You will need a good VHF-HI antenna and UHF to get all of the Twin Cities at that distance. What setup do you have now?

I have a similar problem as Krefly. I get everything in except 9 and 11, which I understand are on VHF. I live in St. Paul and have the Terk HDTVa powered antenna in my upstairs pointed out the window toward Shoreview.

Is there a better combined indoor VHF/UHF antenna I should get to replace my Terk? Or is there a way to add a better VHf antenna to my current setup?

Thanks

The Winegard HD-1080 is supposed to be decent with VHF-HI. For you, at that little distance from Shoreview, I am surprised that you do not get KARE and KMSP with the Terk HDTVa. I would consider trying normal VHF rabbit ears, before buying the HD-1080... If they work, a Pico Micro UHF/VHF joiner could join the VHF rabbit ears to your Terk HDTVa (the Terk would be UHF only in this setup)

I don't know too much about antennas, or the ones everyone is referring to, but I am having issues with 9 and 11 as well. I went to my local best buy to purchase a uhf/vhf antenna and it didn't to the trick. The sales person @ Best Buy said they were having the same issue, he said he had people coming in all day about 9 and 11, and that the stations themselves were having issues, not my antenna. His HDTV displays connect to the OTA antenna on the roof could not pick up 9 and 11, he showed me. Anyone know if the stations are going to bump up the power? Or is this really an antenna issue?

I think all that is happening here is indoor antennas and/or non-VHF antennas. I bet the one on the Best Buy roof is not VHF-HI capable. I personally checked signal on KMSP on Saturday night (in Red Wing) and was getting around 11dBM. That is a STRONG signal, but the person's place I used for testing, has a decent Channel Master VHF antenna and amp. For reference, I tested the blowtorch otherwise known as KSTC (now running 1MW) and got 10-11dBM as well, again that is a strong signal at 50 miles out. I got 1dBm on K25IA-D, running 15kW on UHF-25.

EDIT: also, my best friend, (adler187) just tested KARE and KMSP right now (5:20PM) and was getting -2dBm on KMSP and 0dBM on KARE. He is 70 miles out and has 200-300ft hills over him. Of course, he has a 10dBd VHF-HI antenna and high gain low noise pre-amp.

No increase in Power for KMSP and KARE due till August 12 is my understanding.

Can anyone confirm this? What are they at now for power and where will they be?

btw, I gave my antenna a little twist in the attic and that did the trick for me for 9, the signal is not as high as I would like but it is working now. I may try making my bowties a little longer to favor VHF a litte to.

But if they are going to double the power I may juet leave it alone.

Thanks all


Jay

KARE and KMSP are currently at 19kW, KARE will be at 27.1kW (unless they file for more power) and KMSP will be at 30kW (they had a CP for 35kW, but they seem to have forgetting that plan)

So how do you know when they crank up the power? Is it up to them or does the FCC say when than can?

No involvement with the FCC as to when, if they already have a CP (construction permit) and KARE and KMSP have a CP for the higher power levels. At this point, it is just as soon as they get more cabinets for their current transmitter or install a new transmitter.

I'm in Burnsville, a couple of miles south of the Minnesota River.

After telling my HR10-250 to rescan a couple of times, its signal-quality meter indicates only a trickle of information coming to me on the 9 and 11 frequencies. Not enough in either case to pick up any picture or even a station ID. Of course I used to get channel 11 perfectly. I used to get channel 9, on the 26 frequency, with some breakup because of nearby leafy trees combined with KMSP's circular polarization. (My antenna is a rooftop-mounted SquareShooter, aimed at Shoreview from a small valley, up a street, between rows of trees.)

Channels 4 and 5 remain solid, while 2, 23 and 29 remain problematic. From now on I'll have to rely on my HR21-200's spot-beam sat for KMSP-DT and KARE-DT, as I have already been doing for KTCA-DT and WUCW-DT. (I would include WFTC-DT here, except that MyNetwork is really Someone Else's Network.)