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Wish List of Features for the Upcoming Algolith Dragonfly - Page 3  

post #61 of 221
9/25/04 at 8:09am
Thread Starter 
As most here know, it is next to impossible to offend me. I am so stupid, I take insults as compliments. Your post did not offend me. Your response was much more than adequate. Thanks.

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post #62 of 221
9/25/04 at 10:51am
As far as desired features for the DragonFly, I can sum it up fairly simply in this way:

- All the inputs, outputs, scaling options and configuration features of the upcoming Faroudja 1080 box (or, the current 1010 with full 1080i deinterlacing and scaling) - but with the Silicon Optix Realta chip, of course...
- Plus the Mosquito processing BUILT IN... (why mess with two boxes? And, as others have pointed out - other units will quickly hit the market with the chip, and Algolith's processor would then not stand out in any way)...
- Plus SDI in... (yes)
- Plus 48Hz and 72Hz/75Hz (3:3 for NTSC and Pal) refresh as options.

This includes, of course, DVI/HDCP in/out, 75 Ohm BNC connectors for RGBHV, full picture and aspect control, RS232 control etc. Basically, look at the Faroudja feature set, and add the above (not unreasonable) things and it's nailed.

As we're all piping in, let's concentrate on a serious core set of features that we all want, shall we? Asking for pie-in-the-sky or obscure features, too many inputs etc. is just silly.

The points I've outlined in my list above would (along with the Realta) be points of difference and a competitive advantage that would make this box the "Faroudja-killer" we've all been looking for.

I'd pay around $5,000 for it.

DC
post #63 of 221
9/25/04 at 11:02am
Thread Starter 
One hundred percent agreement with the above.
post #64 of 221
9/25/04 at 11:25am
Ditto, ditto, am assuming DVI/HDMI in iis scalable (not just pass through), the remote control items are all discrete (particularly inputs & power), and upgradeable via web or serial, component out supported as copy protection allows.

5K and you could charge me another 500 for the SDI capability/addin board.

OK, I guess ditto + a couple (redundant) do not forgetaboutits. :)
post #65 of 221
9/25/04 at 11:41am
Time-to-market model: HDMI, Component/RGBHV, bundle w/HDMI DVD player $3.5k MSRP drop to $2k MSRP w/o DVD in 9 months

Mid-market model: multiple HDMI, SDI, Comp/RGBHV, $6k MSRP

High-end model: All the above + kitchen sink

Mosquito *software* upgrade: $500 to $750.
post #66 of 221
9/25/04 at 4:10pm
How about this, if you don't want to give me 4 HDMI and 7 SPDI/F connectors, make a companion box that can be controlled intelligently by the main box. The main box is the video processor and costs the intended $3500.

The external box is a switcher that is intelligently controllable and costs $700-1000 -- enough so that people like me who buy them put another $300-500 of margin in your pocket.

There is a mammoth market out there just for the switching capabilities I believe -- at least for a while, perhaps indefinitely. If the switcher were a companion to the Dragonfly, I think the attach rate would be high.
post #67 of 221
9/25/04 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith
However the HDMi standard does support 480i, and just like SDI it can be 10 bit as well. If HDMI becomes a widely accepted standard doesn't the need for SDi eventually fade out?
The problem is that few of the new HDMI players actually put out 480i.
post #68 of 221
9/25/04 at 6:00pm
Mark,
Re: your comment that Silicon Optix has OEMs set to produce boards, Silicon Optix told me at CEDIA that the board they designed (and was using at the show) included SDI in and HD-SDI in, in addition to component, HDMI and RGB. So, it seems that the design work has already been done to include the various inputs we want. All that they said remains to be done is to design a front panel/control board (if you recall, their demo board included an aux, pc board with numerous switches on it.

Steve
post #69 of 221
9/25/04 at 6:06pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith
However the HDMi standard does support 480i, and just like SDI it can be 10 bit as well. If HDMI becomes a widely accepted standard doesn't the need for SDi eventually fade out?
HDMI can only support 10-bits in YPbPr mode and not RGB. In addition, you still have cable length restrictions on HDMI as well, not to mention the legal implications.

As Steve mentions, very few HDMI players support 480i and/or 480p output.
post #70 of 221
9/25/04 at 8:15pm
Lets go about this in the reverse--what is going to be the value added features to justify the price?

Lets suppose that lumagen takes the vision hdp (msrp $1499) and replaces the existing chip with the realta. Using the supposed price of the realta from this thread, lets say it now has an msrp of $2499. This would be a pretty nice box.

What will differentiate your upcoming box with the supposed one I just laid out (even if my price is off)? I think the one thing that would is the Mosquito nr. After all, the reason it is successful is because its something you have which others do not.
post #71 of 221
9/25/04 at 9:12pm
Parallel thought: What differentiates a Dell x86 server from an IBM x86 server? IBM does have some proprietary technology; Dell has good pricing but not much technology.
post #72 of 221
9/25/04 at 9:50pm
Thread Starter 
I think Silicon Optix is following something like the TI model. It designed a chip and a board to run it and is making the design of the board available to those who license the chip from it. I agree all that is apparently needed is the input/output connectors and a case and panel. I know of one manufacturer who is prepared to OEM the board.

I think we have so much interest in Algolith because they possess something special to value add to the package, its Mosquito noise reduction technology. Absent that, it would start well behind the eight ball with regards to other companies who have manufactured stand alone processors. Take Lumagen for example. It is giving us just about everything we are asking Algolith to do. All they have to do is to buy the chips, redesign what it already has, and do some software design. Albeit this would be hard to do for a small company given what they have already invested in using another's chip and a gate chip which they have invested substantially in software design.

Given the breakthrough of what the Realta chip offers and the availability of the algorithms that come with it for free, someone if not them will step in and will capture the market. Algolith could do it if they are smart. We can only attempt to lead the horses to water. We can't make them drink.
post #73 of 221
9/26/04 at 12:00pm
You have your existing install base of $10,000+ systems. These guys over the past 5 years have bought into the best hardware to get the best picture quality. You'll need SDI and RGBHV over BNC to sell here. 48 / 72 Hz refresh rates are also highly desired.

Is the future HDMI? Sure.

Are dedicated $3,000+ scalers the future? That I'm not so sure. All new displays have scalers built in. The same chips available to dedicated scalers are generally available to the display makers. Most chip makers would prefer to sell in volume to the display makers. Dedicated scalers always have been, and at best always will be a small niche market. What are the compelling reasons to purchase a dedicated scaler:

1) Unique technology. Put Mosquito NR tech in it and you've got something.
2) I/O routing. Give me something that I can plug my various sources into, make them all look as good as they can be made to look, then send it to my display over a single link.
post #74 of 221
9/26/04 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
How about this, if you don't want to give me 4 HDMI and 7 SPDI/F connectors, make a companion box that can be controlled intelligently by the main box. The main box is the video processor and costs the intended $3500.

The external box is a switcher that is intelligently controllable and costs $700-1000 -- enough so that people like me who buy them put another $300-500 of margin in your pocket.

There is a mammoth market out there just for the switching capabilities I believe -- at least for a while, perhaps indefinitely. If the switcher were a companion to the Dragonfly, I think the attach rate would be high.
That's a great idea. Algolith can put a couple of RS232 and IR ports to control external AutoPatch/Extron/Gefen switchers.
post #75 of 221
9/26/04 at 10:11pm
OK, I'll accept that. But given that none of the market's existing switchers really seem to get it done, I'd hope for another effort.
post #76 of 221
9/27/04 at 1:38am
Algolith, please, take a while thinking about implementing Mosquito features in the upcoming Dragonfly.

Looking at the present past, we've seen several video processors coming out since the "availability" of Faroudja chips.
I think the same will happen with Realta.

Talking about policies (not that I wont to suggest anything, just an idea) I would consider much more "lasting" on the market a product that differentiates from the others for a unique feature "like Mosquito feature" even if it costs a bit more (I suppose 5.000 is an amount we are willing to pay) than a processor like many others (even if to come).

In few words, I would be very glad to pay a bigger amount of money for a "special product" which will not become soon overpriced - as the market grows - instead of a "one among the others" processor.

As an example: three years ago I paid a considerable amount of money for a Vigatec Dune-F which had some features like Fli 2200 + Fli 2220, three SDI inputs, Format conversions, 1080p, etc. that no processor in the market would have offered at the time (if not at 15K +).
After three years that processor is STILL a reference.


Thanks
Luca
post #77 of 221
9/27/04 at 7:45am
Hello everyone, thank you very much for all the input and advice. The AVS forum is amazing for this type of market intelligence gathering. I went to take a look at what's out there, following some of your comments, A question I have about SDI, is it as popular in the Americas as it seems to be in Europe?. I agree with arguments made on both distance and availability of a HQ 480i through SDI. We were modifiing DVD players about 4 years ago when we were demoing the DT4101 and 2D MNR algorithms to potential clients for that very reason. If we make MNR part of the Dragon Fly, do I understand that a vast majority of you all would purchase our Dragon Fly over other manufacturer's using Realta?
post #78 of 221
9/27/04 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith
...cut..., A question I have about SDI, is it as popular in the Americas as it seems to be in Europe?...cut...
I think so but I let the Americans answer :D

Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith
If we make MNR part of the Dragon Fly, do I understand that a vast majority of you all would purchase our Dragon Fly over other manufacturer's using Realta?
I would say YES (if it doesn't cost too much) :D .

The point is to make a product that offers the widest implementation of the Realta chip (which will be likely done also by other manufacturers) adding features no others can add (like MNR etc.) and, what is important, answering to most of the addict's needs.

IMHO everyone will be glad to pay something more for added features!
Thanks
Luca
post #79 of 221
9/27/04 at 10:25am
If MNR were included in Dragonfly, I'd have to say that you'd have a unique product that will stand out of the crowd. An all around winner! I'd have to say this is the only scenario that would make the purchase a no brainer (if still relatively affordable)!
post #80 of 221
9/27/04 at 10:47am
I second that. Algolith's MNR would be a reason I would
buy Dragonfly over the competition.
post #81 of 221
9/27/04 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by Algolith
[BA question I have about SDI, is it as popular in the Americas as it seems to be in Europe?. I agree with arguments made on both distance and availability of a HQ 480i through SDI. We were modifiing DVD players about 4 years ago when we were demoing the DT4101 and 2D MNR algorithms to potential clients for that very reason.
There are at least 5 members within the Toronto AVS chapter that use SDI modded players..

Considering that most scalers offer SDI input, you would be wise to offer it also, even if it means adding something to the sell price to cover it..
post #82 of 221
9/27/04 at 11:23am
Hi, I must have missed something over the weekend. My post was simply to point out to another chip maker on this forum that this was a thread in which users were being VERY specific about what they desired in a scaler, information that I thought anyone making chips and doing OEM deals would be interesting in learning about. It was not intended to promote anything inappropriate or as a dig at anyone; I hope that wasn't the way it came across.

Certainly price points and performance at them is relevant to the consumers, as evidenced by the posts.

I value greatly the fact that both Silicon Optix and Gennum are participating in this forum, as are companies like Algolith intending to market products with their chips. And I hope they continue to do so in the future. I think we are all benefiting from this exchange of ideas and information.

And, the moderators do a great job keeping things appropriate and making sure it all stays in the right place.

Sorry if I started something unintentional.

Cheers!


I value
post #83 of 221
9/27/04 at 11:27am
I concur in havin both REALTA and MNR in a single piece of hardware - 5k$ would be a fair price provided it implements both solution with good software.
post #84 of 221
9/27/04 at 12:47pm
Discount for current Mosquito owners, of course :)
post #85 of 221
9/27/04 at 4:50pm
This is my first post on the AVS forums.

I am familiar with Algoliths software algorithms for use in professional broadcast and they do a really fantastic job (little on the slow side however).

I would definitely like to see mosquito incorporated into Dragon Fly. As so many others have mentioned, there will be a lot of companies offering the REALTA, but they wont have mosquito.

For me, less is more (in terms of devices i have on my AV rack). An integrated (one box) product would appeal to me much more than multiple boxes.

As for SDI, I use it for everything in the broadcast world. Cant say i use it at home. However, having HD SDI inputs and outputs (or at least an option for it) could give this box a dual purpose, serving both the home theater and the pro broadcast market. If the Dragon Fly really turns out to be 3.5k Terenex than there is no reason you couldnt or shouldnt use it for broadcast. Id buy it in a heart beat if I could use it for my home theatre AND home studio!!
post #86 of 221
9/27/04 at 10:44pm
Thread Starter 
I really do not know why SDI out should be put in. SDI carries 480i only. It is not a transmission method for p (at least I do not think it is). Perhaps HD SDI out would be useful but not SDI out. Besides there could be legal problems with an SDI out.
post #87 of 221
9/27/04 at 10:48pm
Thread Starter 
For features, please look at the top of the line Lumagen. Thinks like the ability to adjust gray scale at various IRE points and the ability to fix chroma delay etc etc.

Yes. Build it and we will buy it. Want a pre-order? I am ready. Want a dealer? I am ready.
post #88 of 221
9/28/04 at 2:41am
Quote:
Originally posted by mark haflich
I really do not know why SDI should be put in. SDI carries 480i only. It is not a transmission method for p (at least I do not think it is). Perhaps HD SDI out would be useful but not SDI. Besides there could be legal problems with an SDI out.
Of course we'd love HD SDI..

The whole point of offering SDI is to avoid two analog to digital conversions..

If nothing more than marketing reasons, they should offer SDI and/or DVI inputs for those that want to keep an all digital solution..
post #89 of 221
9/28/04 at 6:02am
Thread Starter 
I am sorry for being imprecise. I have edited my earlier post. I absolutely agree about SDI "in" on the processor. I was the one who originally asked for it in this thread. What I was trying to answer was the comment by Emery who asked for SDI "out" on the processor or an optional SDI "out".
post #90 of 221
9/28/04 at 7:20am
Not sure what the HDCP rule is but having the s-video/composite always active (downrezzing in some cases) for monitoring and distribution is a nice feature. This is especially useful for the HDTivo. Nice to have, not high priority feature.
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