Phoenix, AZ - HDTV - Page 345

I admit I didn't notice the problem because I recorded Fringe and didn't watch it until yesterday. Even then, I streamed it to my iPad (nothing like curling up on the sofa with a good video) and I really only noticed the problem when I read these postings. Yup, on a big screen it looks not so good but on the 9.7 inch 1024x576 screen it looked pretty good and fooled me. A clean, upscaled 16x9 SD does that.

(I'm saving up Alcatraz and haven't watched any yet. Thus, my eagle eyes were not available to catch the problem and alert Fox 10. Who knows how many others have yet to watch the shows this problem affected.)

The exception to this being the few episodes that were not broadcast in HD due to the equipment problems. The splicer output would be letterboxed 480i, so roughly 360i of actual picture area, then upconverted back to 720p. A 480p web stream would be vastly superior to that. A 360p stream could go either way depending on how good KSAZ's upconverter is and how compressed the stream is.

I have no idea where you got the 100 Mbps from as it is so far off.

The max total mux bitrate over satellite, using DVB-S2, is 80 Mbps. Within the mux the data is split into at least three program feeds (east, mountain, west). For example, ABC runs each of their video streams at 22.5 Mbps, using H.264. NBC is about the same, regarding their bitrate and the use of H.264.

I don't look at the CBS mux, but do know they are DVB-S2, using MPEG-2 4:2:2.

The CW is using a single program mux DVB-S MPEG-2 at about 40 Mbps. No Mtn feed from them.

Of course Fox sends out their video at less than 15 Mbps.

The "Paxton Petty" episode of Alcatraz will be rebroadcast 2-25-12 at 11:00 PM

You mean the seven of the 8200 or so hours that were broadcast in HD since FOX began broadcasting in HD? That's a QoS rate of 99.92%. Cox cable has been out everywhere for more than 7 hours over the last 8 years. It's down for maintenance in Phoenix every 5 or 6 weeks for a couple of hours lately. Even Phoenix has had over 7 hours of rain fade on DISH and DirecTV over that same time, and they and cable weren't just in SD, they were completely out. About the only service that can beat that QoS rate is the city water supply, and its not even up 99.92% of the time in many places. But those are not the hours I was speaking about.

And no, it was not "roughly 360i", it was "exactly" 480p, at 484x860. The emergency backup is an analog monitor signal directly out the back of a FOX receiver, digitized and rescaled in a dedicated $12,000 box to 720p (unfortunately no HD monitor output is available), and you only had that because the Chief at KSAZ had the foresight to build that in; there is no telling if any other station has been conscientious enough to protect their signal quite that thoroughly. And the only compression that ever got was the same SMPTE 310 compression that all broadcast TV eventually gets, which is mild compared to web compression, and still milder than what cable and DBS often do.

And there was no "letter boxing" since it originated at 16:9, and actually, no splicing. That was the problem; the splicer failed to splice.

So, to sum up, same exact resolution as a 480p web video, and far less compression.

Huh? The NTSC analog output you are talking about is controlled via the Fox AFD data signal. That means that 16:9 content is flagged for letterboxing out of that analog connection. That also means the 360 lines of video is correct. The remaining 120 lines (60 above and below) are the black letterboxing. That 480i analog letterboxed video is then upconverted via your $12k box to 1280x720, either windowboxed, or blown up further to fill the screen, meaning that those 360 lines of video were doubled to 720 lines. That would mean a fairly fuzzy image.

The fact that all Fox affiliates have to use that crappy analog output has pissed many a viewer and just as many station engineers. For a long time Fox refused to let stations have acces to the HD content of the IRD. But, I've heard that Fox has come around on several occasions.

The splicer is kind-of a nice idea, but when it fails, viewers are left complaining about the crappy image on their screens. Even more so when the stations had to use the analog output when doing emergency crawls (except those that spend the money to buy gear that went between the splicer rack output's feed to the transmitter).

Viewers constantly complain in my market because of it.

What the Hell is 484x860? No video resolution using those parameters exists.

Hence, "The exception".

Standard practice is for the SD output to be a 4:3 AFD-controlled downconvert of the network HD, not unlike what most cable and DBS providers use to create their own SD Fox (and NBC where available) channels. Most Fox network programming is marked AFD 1010b, 16:9 letterbox when in a 4:3 frame, so the standard output would have ~120 total rows of black letterboxing on the top and bottom of ~360 pixels of the actual image. The result would then either be left windowboxed in the final output, or zoomed to crop out the letterboxing and fill the frame. If KSAZ is getting a true 16:9 SD output then they're ahead of every other Fox station I've ever dealt with.

Where do I get the idea? I get it from reality. Its a fact, unlike your assertion regarding the max bit rate. FOX blew the doors off of that a few years ago. They were at 55, moved to 73, and eventually to 100. Rumor was that the company that used to backhaul the Suns is also at 100 and even tested to 200 just for grins, knowing that was impractical, but they still uplinked at that rate as a way of stress testing downlink sites, so it would be hard for that max bit rate fantasy to hold much water. FOX needs 100 because they will be doing six prime-time MLB games at once, starting in May.

The bottleneck is receive; as the bit rate goes up the EbNo, BER, and MER go up, meaning you have to have more robust downlink equipment to receive it. For a TV station doing point to (200) multipoint, that meant 200 receive site upgrades. Which FOX did. The only reason their program streams inside the 100 mb MPTS are 14.5 is because that prevents the station from having to do the SMPTE 310 compression. 80 may be the ceiling that certain downlinks can't reliably receive above, but 100 is alive and well where I live.

So yes, in the case of FOX, and probably PBS, the PQ delivered to the station is identical to what is broadcast. That's actually a good thing; other stations eventually have to compress further to fit into the 6 MHz window, and manipulate the signal more increasing the probability of degrading the signal beyond what the FOX/PBS method does. And I think nearly everyone uses DVB-S2 by now; it's been the standard for a number of years, IIRC.

But there are often HD backhauls to stations at 45 mb and higher. You can split hairs about the numbers but the bottom line is exactly what I said it was, that HD delivered by backhaul to stations often has the potential to knock your socks off compared to what we mere mortals are ever allowed to see. I have seen it myself, and on a number of occasions have had to go retrieve my socks.

TomCat,
This isn't a criticism, just an honest question for you, I have only seen it on Fox 10, but was wondering what this issue is I see every so often, A program will start off in full HD, then after a commercial break, it will return in 4:3 SD with HD graphics on the sidebars, then may or may not return to full HD sometime later in the program. I don't recall ever seeing that on any other station.

They might be, but if so, probably for very different reasons. If you had read just a little more carefully, you might have snapped to the fact that the signal was an analog monitor output, and analog video has no capability to be flagged with AFD or any other form of metadata, relegating your typical smokescreen bluster of a post to nothing more than smoke, which someone who has "dealt with" stations in any technical capacity would already know, BTW.

It's just straight 480p 16:9 video, the same exact thing my consumer DVDR puts out. If there was a weak link, a monitor-quality MPEG decoder and DAC are probably no better than a consumer STB MPEG decoder and DAC, both of which would be needed to make video on that port. That would possibly explain some of the rainbowing I was seeing on Fringe. No matter how intimately you may have "dealt" with any FOX station (and really, just having tuned them in is technically having "dealt" with them, and anyone could claim that) odds are you haven't "dealt" with this particular aspect out of the million-squared possible technical aspects that could be "dealt" with.

So, are we finally pulling back the curtain a little bit? Prove me wrong. Which, if any, FOX stations have you "ever dealt with" and in what capacity? PM me if you don't want it out there.

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I thought so.

Really? An "honest" question? No criticism? I'm beginning to think maybe you guys don't love me anymore.

But as Fox Mulder once said, "a broken ciock can still be right 730 times a year"

I used to see this a lot on all stations a few years ago. 3, 61, and 15 were major offenders. In the last few years I don't recall seeing it at all on any station. I think it may now be impossible on 10, because the only 4:3 signal in the entire house is a clean feed to 10.1 on 45.

But anyway, long story short, stations used to have just SD and a SD legacy infrastructure. They would upconvert the SD signal for the HD output. When they added HD prime and later HD news they did this by double-switching around the SD equipment. When the automation sent a switch command to take network or take local it sent a simultaneous aux command to an external switch allowing the signal to bypass the legacy SD equipment and upconverter during the network or news segments.

There was a certain level of unreliability in that those who wrote the logs often "forgot" to add the aux events, meaning no secondary switch, and no switch to the path capable of HD. Either the next segment would correct this, or the MC Op would look up from the hundred other tasks he was doing and correct it manually.

Thankfully, those days are all but behind us with full HD infrastructure now at most stations. It can happen, but is rare. These days it typically is due to a problem with a segment of a program, where there might have been a problem with that and they had to sub an SD version of a particular segment. Actually, I guess you might have seen this a lot this summer on 10 and 45 when they were testing syndicated HD (the quantity of which should rise significantly next week). I doubt you will see it much anymore, tho.

The bug is typically keyed over downstream of all of this, so you would still get that.

On 10 the bug is in the pillar, because 10 is the only station that puts the bug in the pillar; most still place it in the 4:3 (annoying!). If you watch SD cable you also may notice that 10 is the only letterboxed and not center-cut station in prime time, something FOX has been holding local cable operators' feet to the fire over.

I think most stations have finally seen the (lack of) wisdom in branding the pillars, with the exception of specific SD content inside an HD show; TNT/TBS still do it; 10 and 45 haven't had that now since labor day. Its a relic of the past like "via satellite" or "In Color" or "In Stereo". A little naive and silly. At some point "HD" itself just has to go, in guides, listings, etc. But honestly, did it ever make sense to put "Kxxx HD" on the SD pillars? To announce that you were HD, but only during the moments that you really were not in HD? Irony. You gotta love it.

You realize you quoted me in post #10308, on a public forum, not a PM message between you and one other person, right?

Why so sensitive? How did I insult you? It seems you're the one who likes insulting those on this forum for having the audacity to comment on your broadcasts that you admit aren't able to be fully monitored for quality.

When did it become so hard to say, "Sorry, we had a problem, thanks for pointing it out, we fixed it, we'll do better next time"?

Moderators Note:

Comments here are close to getting edited or deleted. Enough with the personal comments.

Nope, never went to 100 Mbps. I keep an eye on the Fox engineering website and the info was for the 73 Mbps ultimate rate they were going for. Now that SD is gone, they've dropped back down to ~70 Mbps (just looked).

In reality, no one goes higher than Fox @ 31.25 Msps. But instead of using 9/10 for the FEC, they dropped to 3/4. Most IRDs only go to 35 Msps, though 45 and 55 are out there. Are they practical for broadcast use? No. Just like 16APSK and 32APSK are meant for other professional uses that require even tighter control of linearity at the uplink site. So, in reality, 8PSK using less than 35 Msps is what is done.

You said that networks were delivering at 100 Mbps, which in reality is not true.


You are correct that the max of 80 that I quoted is not true, with regard to capability, but it is the max that anyone uses for network delivery to affiliates.

I see nothing on the Fox engineering website that indicates they will be upping the data rate on the transponders and adding more streams. They can spread the 6 games over the current mux configurations on the two satellites. Plenty of space as currently configured.

I'll say that the current Fox mu configuration will not change. And I can point either of my two dishes at the transponders and prove it.


Yes, Fox spent a lot of money to get stations going at the 73 Mbps using the old IRDs. Now, with the new Motorola IRDs and the loss of SD, they've dropped the mux bitrate down by using a lower FEC, providing for more headroom.

Point me to anyone that is doing 100 Mbps and I'll point my dish there and look.


PBS is no different than ABC/CBS/CW/NBC when it comes to the station taking it and routing it through their plant. The fact that PBS is not doing at least 2:1 really sucks, as I've seen macroblocking many a time with their feed. But, PBS should not be using the sat feed as primary anymore, as they are supposed to have completed the implementation of their IP push delivery system, allowing for very high bitrate H.264 video.


Frankly, I'm not sure where backhaul came from, as they are really fronthauls. A backhaul would indicate a reverse feed from the network to the origination site.

As mentioned, the CW delivers their feed to the affiliates using QPSK at 40 Mbps (45 Mbps mux). Many feeds to Canada are QPSK using 45 Mbps mux rates (unfortunately encrypted). Unfortunately, Canada only gets their Warner Bros. and NBC Universal product from the Warner Bros. GDMX service @ 14.5 Mbps, H.264.

I see it everyday with my two dishes. So know how great the video can be.

CBS used a Grammy fronthaul backup of their fiber feed via 8PSK, with the video running 75 Mbps MPEG-2 4:2:2 (peak).

I like how you continue to misread what I say and use that as a basis to insult me. I did not say that AFD was present in the analog signal, I said that AFD controls the downconversion used to create the SD signal. The AFD will normally be either 1000b which creates a 4:3 centercut, or 1010b, which creates letterboxed 16:9. And the output is composite, not component, meaning it's 480i, and will be subject to rainbows like all NTSC composite signals. Your DVD player at home, if connected via component or HDMI, would put out a superior picture, even if it was set to letterboxed in 480i 4:3.

It is impossible for any affiliate to rebroadcast any network show, without getting a refeed from the network. Oh wait, CBS and CW affiliates can as they have to capture the east feed for air (Mountain timezone). The other networks have Mtn feeds. Fox affiliates have it even worse, in that they can't capture the HD feed, as they aren't allowed access to it.

As for CBS and CW affiliates... if something went wrong with their HD capture, they too are out-of-luck, unless they figured things out in time and were able to capture the west feed for later playback.

Hook one of the Cisco DMPs to a blackmagic HDMI to HDSDI converter. Timing is almost the same as the SD analog outputs. I haven't used it on air because my splicer is pretty solid, but if our splicer were to take a dump I'd try it out. Naturally, SD would be first.

I wish Fox would give us HD-SDI.

We've got a Fox Sports Detroit receiver for some special broadcasts and they even disabled the ASI port.

A lot of people I work with watch the Sunday night shows on Fox and we all noticed and complained about the picture quality but did any of them call? No. It took me a few days of seeing the problem before I took the time to post about it here.

All of us have DVRs and its normal to watch the recording a day or two later so you don't know if the problem has already been fixed by the time you get around to watching the recording.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

Well, after delaying my Cox WH-DVR installation due to a business trip, this weekend I moved from renting to owning my DVR with a Tivo Elite.
I read too many stories of poor performance and flaky MRS with the 8642 and 1642 units to ultimately pull the trigger.
Now I just have to wait/hope that Tivo releases the Preview unit for consumer use.

I can say the following, the install couldn't have been easier & 4 tuners are awesome.
BTW: If we do ever figure out how to get the Plus package channels enabled for Tivo, I may just resubscribe to HBO.

the plus pack should just be able to be added to the account.

I have been very happy with my Elite, 20+ days and counting. I was going month to month, planning on buying a lifetime at a later date. However I took the plunge today after finding a promo code online. $100 off, so I paid $399 minus the $19 I had already paid, so $380 to go lifetime.


Sure they can be added to your account, but that does not mean you can view them on a TiVo. No TiVo owners in AZ have been able to get the plus package channels as of yet. You get the message, not authorized, contact you cable company.

My eyes, my eyes! Channel 10 looks horrible tonight.

The first 25 minutes of Idol tonight looked like up-converted SD again. A quick scan of the rest of the show looks fine.

Looks like Cox may have figured out the "Plus Package" premiums with CableCARD. I am now able to tune all of the Starz HD premium channels on my Ceton InfiniTV!!

Still can't tune any plus channels on my TiVo

Even the non-premiums ?

None of them

That is only useful when DST is not in effect, right? Or are there Arizona-specific feeds?

Correct and nope. During DST the stations in AZ must capture the east feed for
later playback. Even though AZ is equal to PDT, it doesn't do you guys any good.

I'm not sure what the Fox affiliates do since they can't get at the HD feed. Fox may do a feed for AZ. I'll have to look when DST comes around.