There goes the KB/Mouse debate - Page 4  

Ridiculous.
No one is using that as a litmus test. Everyone can download an aimbot and have an unfair advantage also. The point is, this is a controller. The only reason it could POSSIBLY give you an advantage is because a Mouse and Keyboard is actually better/more efficient than a joystick.

Sounded like his litmus test. I don't really care one way or the other. I haven't played PC games since high school and don't use my keyboard for anything other than typing. Probably won't switch to a KB/M for xbox even though it is better b/c it would be impractical for me to have a KB/M while sitting on the couch.

btw - what is an "aimbot"?

I do not own an XBOX because I like FPS but refuse to play with a controller. So far I have only played PC games and waited for PC ports of console games. This adaptor makes me wonder though ... maybe I'll get an XBOX.

As for the "level playing field" argument, I don't think that really applies to me or most other people in this forum, the reason being that I do not have the luxury or desire to master any FPS by playing for hours every day (which some players evidently do). So I am guaranteed to get my ass whooped every time I play. While getting "pwned" by 13-year-olds, I might as well use my preferred mouse and keyboard.

That's a great point. One of the drawbacks of online play are there are people who have all this free time and can obviously master the game, something others don't really have the luxury of doing.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/558/558944p1.html

Here is the IGN review on the product. Apparently if works very well for Halo. Welcome to mouse reflex and accuracy augmented by some healthy autoaim. They used to call this combination cheating on the PC. Of course having a mouse and autoaim while everyone else is restricted to a comparatively handicaped gamepad is a whole 'nother level. Add that to the fact that the user can do it without anyone else knowing or any detection - well, that just sucks.

Someone needs to find whoever designed this and give him a solid shot to the balls. When he finishes sucking his thumb and whining in the fetal position, tell him it's justice and do it again.

I didn't see anything about autoaim in the review, maybe I missed something? What I read about was the deadzone setting which compensates for joystick movements that are overlooked and the movements that are augmented by large stick movements.

As far as everyone else being 'restricted' they are not since anyone can now order this device.

Also the article mentions some things like sniping not translating as well and having to compensate so it sounds like this device is going to require game by game tweaks and is more of a controller preference. In some games a better player may have a slight advantage but it's hardly cheating.

Anyway, since this works good for Halo I ordered mine for Halo 2. I'm really looking forward to using a mouse and keyboard fror Halo 2 single player.

Autoaim is in the software (Halo 1/2, SW: Battlefront etc..) not the hardware. The developers put it in the game because precision reaction and tracking is quite a bit harder with a gamepad than a mouse (it's not present in the PC Halo and it was a deliberate decision). The advantage comes from using the KB/M in a game designed specifically for gamepads which includes autoaim to compensate.

Keep in mind this KB/M combo is only very unbalancing on FPS genre games and since it works well with Halo it will likely greatly unbalance that game. Flight sim and other games just aren't as affected by this. It's all about FPS and specifically Halo 2.

It was MSFT's intention never to have a KB/M for the Xbox. This company has circumvented that. So while it is available to everyone it isn't as if people designed games for it (i.e. if using M/KB you loose the autoaim to make the playing field at least reasonably level). It is the equivalent of competing in the Tour de France using a motorcycle (someone else's analogy). The race isn't designed for motorcycles, it is a bicycle race. Now Lance Armstrong has to go out and get a motorcycle to have a chance at winning against Joe Schmoe.

EDIT:
Don't get me wrong. I much more enjoy a KB/M for FPS. I end up drastically curtailing my playing style and avoiding super close gun combat simply because I think the gamepad sucks at it and I end up thinking I can pull stuff off that I can't (used to PC). I watched my neighbor who is a heck of a FPS player on the PC, flail wildly and cost us the game the last week on Halo in the same type of close in encounter. I'm a marginal Halo player with a gamepad but FPS on the PC, I am pretty decent. I could certainly enjoy Halo more on a M/KB. I'd be a hell of a lot better, much more of an asset to my team, and I wouldn't have to curtail my FPS playing style since I could actually hit something in close combat. All that said, I don't do it because the game is designed for gamepads and it would be unfair (assuming I was the only one with one). Now that this is out - that's unbalancing. I might have to get one if I find gameplay really unbalancing and a lot of people using them. Once everyone has one, the big boards will become sniper fests since anyone in the open will be a deadman with autoaim. People will be able to consistently make outrageous snipes at people in fast moving vehicles. For the people who really value the gamepad I hope this doesn't see widespread adoption.

EDIT 2:
Now that I think about it. This is kind of the equivalent to steroids in athletics. To compete at the top levels of certain sports, it is almost a prerequisite since everyone is now using them. (for those that don't know, drug testing can be beat and the timing manipulated as I know someone is going to bring this up).

I would like to reiterate the point I made in my previous post. There never was a "level playing field". Playing games online isn't like walking into an arcade where you and an opponent are playing on the same machine with the same controls looking at the same screen. There are a plethroa of things to give someone an advantage. Maybe a person is on the phone talking to his buddy who is playing on the other team telling him where everyone is. Maybe he's using a third party controller that offers some advantage, like the "FPS Master" (this is actually funny to be because one of my buddys raved about this thing for a week saying how amazing it was). My point is online gaming is never going to be an even playing field, which actually makes it more "realistic". In real wars both sides don't meet in the middle and draw guns out of a giant hat, why should video game wars be any different. Besides, some people say they better with a controller than with a kb/m.

Look at the PC. The option was originally open to use either one. People used to have dedicated servers for joystick only players due to the unbalance (even as recently as Half-Life). Now you don't even see that. No one plays without a M/KB (besides Stephen Hawking who likely has some other rig). People that say this prefer playing with a gamepad and are used to it so comparatively they aren't good with a M/KB. This is like someone trained one way. Let them train with the KB/M for a while. It may not change their preference but they will eventually be much better.

Anybody who has used both knows the K/M is much "better" [re: more acurate, faster etc.] than any gamepad.

Thing is, I still prefer using a gamepad and subjectively find it "better" [re: more appealing and fun].

Your exactly right on all of those points. Online gaming does not have a level playing field. In some games even a faster processor makes a huge difference. In Doom 3 it gives the person with the fastest rig the advantage.

ChrisFB,
I see what you are saying about autoaim but if I am not mistaken that is generally an option you can turn off in an online game. I would not want autoaim on in multiplayer anyway.

I did go ahead and order the thing, I should have it next week so i will give you all my impressions. Since I am very skilled with the KB/M on the PC it will be interesting to see if indeed I do have an advantage and if the experience translates well.

Definitely let us know how it is. I don't trust console gaming review sites one bit so I'll take an opinion from here any day of the week (although the IGN review seemed solid). There is no stopping it so we might as well all get accustomed to the new landscape and if that includes KB/M so be it - much better for me.

As far as the game impact, autoaim can't be turned off or configured in any way in either Halo 1 or 2. These games were made specifically for gamepads and the fudge is in there (it would be damn hard to hit moving targets otherwise). I don't know what the long term effects are for online play. If this thing is as good as a PC based M/KB once you get it configured for a game and if it is broadly adopted (obviously, I think getting it past formal competitions is going to be impossible) it will certainly change the way boards are played. I predict that on the wide open boards sniping will rule and anyone out in the open will be torn to sheds. Multiple accurate shots at players driving fast moving vehicles will be a reality. In close quarter combat, it will have a very significant impact. We'll see what happens.

the auto aim is more of a hindrance (in xbox halo) for players that go for headshots in that it aims for the center of the body. I've always turned it off.

edit: perhaps i was thinking of goldeneye not halo. i'll have to check.

I don't beleive there is an option in Halo for XBOX to change the aiming type. This however was true in Unreal Championship for XBOX, where you could turn it on or off and when having it on it was hard to get headshots with the Lightning Gun as it would aim for the body.

I read the review on IGN and it basically told us what I was thinking all along. Its not going to give you a huge advantage on console games since they are made to be played with a joystick. Some games it'll work well for, others it wont, depending on what features are in that game. But over-all it doesnt seem like its going to give anyone a huge advantage over a joystick, and is going to be nothing like playing a game on a PC.

I bought the device purely because I enjoy using a KB/M more than a contoller for FPS. With Halo2 coming out I mainly want to use it for that.

I'm not so much getting it because I want to game online with it or because it will give me an advantage. It will give me an advantage over a controller when it comes to my own skills. I'm simply a better player with a KB/M but whether or not it give me an advantage over a player with a controller remais to be seen.

My big concern is that the device will respond in a way that will seem funky compared to the PC experience. Hopefully the device won't react in some odd way and one will have to compenaste for it. That would throw me off.

My other concern is controller backwards compatibility. Obviously an XBOX 2 will be release in the next year or 2 so hopefully I can continue to use the device on the next console unless of course Xbox2 has KB/M compatibility out of the box.

The IGN review definitely sold me necause of the custom settings to get the device to respond as accurately as possible.

The autoaim in Halo is not super obvious. It's just enough to help out someone using a gamepad (or make a mouse very deadly - which is why it was left out of the PC version).

If you want the worst in autoaim try Star Wars Battlefront - that damn thing makes it very hard to lead a moving combatant when they are running laterally in front of you. It keeps pulling the aim back onto the body and by the time your blast gets there it's too late. In that situation you are constantly wrenching the site off the target and trying to get a non-affected shot in. Very frustrating. Fun game though - worth a spin.

Here's a video of the device in action:
http://xboxmovies.teamxbox.com/xbox/...FRAG-in-Action

For anyone who hasn't seen this check it out:

Will the keyboard and mouse slay Halo 2?

This just reconfirms some of the previous posts.

Rev

Funny, we should write to that guy and ask him to cite this thread as his source since just about every single point is covered in depth here.

According to UPS my smartjoy is out for delivery so I hope to get this today and be able to check it out in depth.

as far as the article goes, that's two now from IGN and it makes me wonder if the are getting paid to advertise this thing.

Cool, Dean. I was hoping someone would buy one and report in :) Take one for the team!

So far I have tested it with Halo and I must say it works as advertised.

More later...

Only really got to test it on two online games.

Rainbow six. I have to say I never liked this game online. As a fan of Ghost Recon, RS seems terribly inaccurate. That said, the Smartjoy worked ok with this game like the IGN article said.
Of course I'm still playing with deadzone settings.

GHost Recon Island thunder. This game was not reviewed with the device by IGN if I remember correctly but it seems to be the best of the 3 I have tried so far.

We are waiting - I'll be checking back frequently. You are in a great position to test it because you are an adept KB/M player on the PC and don't particularly enjoy the gamepad for FPS on the Xbox (basically the same as myself and other people who would purchase it). Of course not being financially compensated in any way and not being a 12 year old adds a lot of credibility too.

Feel free to go into as much depth and detail as you care to.

I sure wish you had Halo2.

You and me both. :D

So far, my early impressions are that this device does not have the accuracy/smoothness of a real/pure KB/M. I have not had nearly enough time experimenting with various dead zone settings but I can see early on that this is never going to be the exact, precise, game to game solution for mouse and keyboard.

Now that does not mean it's a bad thing. It has the look and feel of the KB/M so if that is your preference then I would say you will be satisfied with this device.
if you are looking to buy it because you think you are immediately going to come into a room and dominate, I would stick to the controllers.

After more testing last night I am starting to fear this device has a fatal flaw, at least for me.
In the IGN review they wrote about some games having analog stick acceleration where you press the stick to the far left or right and the harder you push the faster the character turns. This really became apparent testing XIII. For whatever reason I can't seem to find a happy medium. You have a couple of things to adjust. first would be the in game axis speed, which XIII has. Next would be your deadzone setting.
Increasing these makes the control speed wildly out of control.
Decreasing them makes the movement to slow especially in the small deadzone area.
I'm going to keep experimenting but I cannot see this being any more accurate than a control in games that employ controller acceleration.
In games like Halo and Ghost Recon it seems to work fine. If Halo is what you are buying it for then go for it but as someone who uses a KB/M I expect the same experience and if I move the mous slightly, I want it to react. i don't really want to be thinking about compensating.

That does sound annoying! Heck, half of my problem with thumbsticks is constant compensation for the 'helpful' mechanics they put in to work around limitations of thumbstick control.

And I prefer my more dextrous digits, but hey, I don't want to spark the 'debate' again ;)

As I continue game testing I have to wonder if the guy reviewing this device at IGN was on crack or the smartjoy payroll.

I appreciate that he said this game will work better with some games than others but 'ok' is not acceptable. If I am trying to line up a shot and my mouse acts JUST LIKE an analog stick with imprecision it is USELESS.

The whole purpose of Mouse and Keyboard is the dead on accuracy. THAT IS WHY it is preferred over a controller. If you cannot get that precision then the only purpose of the device is because you really can't stand a controller.
Many of these games were designed around a controller and this device just simply cannot compensate for it.

There are a few games that work pretty well and I have more to try.

So far the games that feel very natural are:

HALO
GHOST RECON
MEDAL OF HONOR FRONTLINE

One game that was still inaccurate but sort of fun to try is House of the Dead 3. That one worked 'ok'.

ANYONE worried this device will dominate has no fear here although I have not been able to try it on HALO 2.