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Green Glue - Page 6

post #151 of 1298
Ok, so I start on the framing this weekend!

A question that has crossed my mind... Is this stuff like peanut butter or more slimey?

Just curious about the application to a stud... like, will it all get smooshed out when you screw the drywall down? or is it heavier duty consistency?

thanks!
post #152 of 1298
good luck with the framing, and happy thanksgiving

it's a light paste, not peanut-butterish.

B
post #153 of 1298
Now the hard part...
post #154 of 1298
brianr820,

I was wondering how effective it would be to put a composite layer of mass loaded vinyl and accoustic foam between the studs

and then

apply 2 layers of drywall with GG between them...

would this be effective or would it be a waste of money?

thanks!
post #155 of 1298
Unlike many of you, we here in California do not benefit from a construction mindset that can conceive of the idea of a "basement". Sadly, when our land is arguably among the most expensive, and they are now building 3-storey houses on 4,000-square foot properties, NOBODY has opted to dig down

So, my theater is on the second floor of my new home. Despite the hideous costs, it is still a giant "cookie-cutter" home that I was not able to have customized. I did, however, pay to have all interior walls and floor insulated to help with soundproofing.

So, I'm trying to figure out the best way to revamp the room. I'm considering Green Glue and another layer of sheetrock on the interior walls. I will be building a wall across the back where the green "curtain A" line is on the diagram -- and I'll be soundproofing that wall, too.

However... what about the floor? The room is above a guest bedroom and the kitchen. Though the in-floor insulation does help dramatically, I am considering removing out the carpet -- since I'm going to build a platform and a wall (and run outlets into the floor for the Berkline 099's and riser's step lights)-- and then putting the carpet back.

If so, would I benefit much from putting Green Glue on the floor? If so, what should I put on top of the GG? (thinking like 1/4-1/2" wood of some form).

If so, I'm looking at about 700 square feet of GG... so I, too, would appreciate 1-gallon sizes!

Perhaps people here should sell others their leftovers

post #156 of 1298
Quote:


Originally posted by dork0900
brianr820,

I was wondering how effective it would be to put a composite layer of mass loaded vinyl and accoustic foam between the studs

and then

apply 2 layers of drywall with GG between them...

would this be effective or would it be a waste of money?

thanks!

hi 0900, it's hard for me to answer that question, as i've never seen data for limp mass used in the normal manner (in the air cavity).

but MLV between the drywall/green/drywall sandwich and the studs sure wouldn't interfere with Green Glue's performance, so the result might be akin to whatever the result of MLV in a normal 2x4 wall is. in some upcoming tests, we are going to include this combination, as it seems to be interesting to many people. hopefully the results are great...

but without the results in front of me, the above is the best assessment that i have.

take care,

Brian
post #157 of 1298
Quote:


Whatever is not nailed down, is mine.
Whatever I can pry loose... is not nailed down!

duly noted! i'll have the lab equipment nailed down tomorrow. hee hee

nice picture, Glen! Green Glue is fantastic on floors. They tend to be screwed down rather tightly, and as such they tend to exhibit some substantially problematic midbass resonances as well as another problem, called coincidence, that is lower in frequency on a floor than a wall. Impact noise is another benefit of damping a floor, and reduction of flanking noise is another. A well-damped floor (or wall) makes a poor sound conductor, while normal constructions with conventional materials liek wood/drywall/concrete can typically transmit sound over great distances.

if you really want to attain a high level of sound isolation from the top down, treating the ceiling below is a great idea. Green Glue or RSIC clips are just some of the options. it's not impossible that the ceiling below has resilient channel...?

take care,

Brian
post #158 of 1298
Brian,

Do you know roughly when those upcoming tests will be done? Thanks!


Quote:

____________

hi 0900, it's hard for me to answer that question, as i've never seen data for limp mass used in the normal manner (in the air cavity).

but MLV between the drywall/green/drywall sandwich and the studs sure wouldn't interfere with Green Glue's performance, so the result might be akin to whatever the result of MLV in a normal 2x4 wall is. in some upcoming tests, we are going to include this combination, as it seems to be interesting to many people. hopefully the results are great...

but without the results in front of me, the above is the best assessment that i have.

take care,

Brian

______________
post #159 of 1298
hey dork, in the coming weeks, an exact date for when the data will be on the site isn't set, but ASAP in any case

post #160 of 1298
Quote:


Originally posted by brianr820
drywall does soak up water, good call, and Green dries faster in a sandwich than it does in open air as a result.

Do we want it to dry, or do we not want it to dry? Seeing how this is a "glue" I guess it is supposed to dry? If it dries, what happens to it? Does it remain flexible? My understanding is that damping materials need to remain flexible.

If we don't want it to dry, would a layer of primer on the first course of drywall help keep the green glue from drying?
post #161 of 1298
hey chris, it remains very, very flexible, and it should dry. it will exhibit good damping pretty quick (a day or even a few hours, conditions depending), but it should dry.

even if you put it between two sheets of glass, it will eventually dry unless you sealed the edges to be completely air tight. but drying is good.

take care,

Brian
post #162 of 1298
i was thinking here in the wee hours of the morn about installation questions concerning Green.

it's straight-forward to use, spread it on, and screw, but sometimes questions do come up - things like wall texture and if the stuff will work with some given texture, for one example.

one fine gent commented that he'd asked alot of questions for a small order, but, see, here's the thing:

if some contractor orders 150 pails to make an apartment building, someone can just go demonstrate and make sure everything is exactly right. but you guys don't have that luxury, really. now, in 90% of cases minimum, it will all go fine, fine, fine, and AAlloy is making movies and taking pictures and timing crews using it and all of that, but these things take time, and it's not quite ready for the site.

but there are people to answer questions, the service is there, and if i was you i'd just go ahead and abuse it (the service). take pictures of your wall, ask that the lab test something similar, just spit it all out.

abuse is good!

Brian
post #163 of 1298
and as long as i'm rambling, if you're thinking of using the Green feel free to fire questions about your room and construction in general. the folks here are reasonably nice, although i don't think there is a passable singing voice among 'em, competent in this general area (sound isolation), and you'll get a reply.

we are not remotely competent in any area of theater construction other than sound isolation, just to clear up my comment immediately above.

Brian
post #164 of 1298
Quote:


Originally posted by brianr820
Green Glue is fantastic on floors. They tend to be screwed down rather tightly, and as such they tend to exhibit some substantially problematic midbass resonances as well as another problem, called coincidence, that is lower in frequency on a floor than a wall.

So, given that I have particle-board floors currently under the theater, if I were to put down a layer of GG on top of them... what should I put on top? More particle board, or plywood, or some other substance?

Adding GG and sheetrock to the ceiling downstairs is out of the question. No way the wife would agree to me destroying the ceiling (one continuous ceiling from the kitchen (under the theater) through the family room and dining room and living room...

The ceilings (between the floors) are insulated for sound dampening... I'm just wanting to add a bit more in the theater itself.

Thanks...
post #165 of 1298
I'm sure Brian will answer, but you should be able to use any rigid, flat material on top of the Green Glued floor to make the sandwich (Particle Board, OSB, Ply, MDF, etc.). It would just be screwed down over your current floor (with a thin layer of GG between).
post #166 of 1298
we can't find particleboard here for ~the last year (just the melamine/painted shelf stuff). it's all OSB, ply, and MDF. and the wildest thing of all is that MDF is the cheapest of that lot.

what billwill said is exactly right. pick something of about the same thickness as the other layer (or a bit thicker), and that won't break the bank. Another layer of particleboard is a fine choice.
post #167 of 1298
Brian...
Just reading this thread... a very exciting product. I'm putting together a spec for a new HT in the lower level of an existing home. We had planned to use homasote and decoupled drywall on both sides of a 2x4 wood stud wall for a STC value of 51 or better. ("Decoupled" per homasote's installation instructions of staggering the dryall edges, screwing drywall to homasote but not to the studs... not using resilient channel.)

I noticed you tested GG with homasote (440 sound barrier). Do you have any data that quantify:
a) the incremental benefit of homasote-GG-5/8gypsum versus homasote-5/8gypsum?
b) which is better... decoupled homasote and 5/8gypsum or GG and 2 layers of 5/8gypsum?

Thanks!
post #168 of 1298
hey Tom,

the test we ran was for damping and wave speed in a drywall/gg/homasote/gg/drywall sandwich, which was what someone asked above. we found (in two tests) it to perform ~the same as drywall/gg/drywall/gg/drywall. the test we are

a) i wouldn't use soundboard + GG, i'd use 2 layers of drywall with GG. i would probably opt for 2 layers of drywall sans GG over drywall + soundboard as well. STC ratings can sometimes just mean a big problem moved just under 125hz, and nothing was really gained at all.
b) the latter. homasote has a damping factor of ~.04-.05, which is very high for a common building material, but 6-10x lower than drywall-gg-drywall, and...

the combo of GG + soundboard seems to interest alot of people, and we are working to find the ideal manner of use. we think these combinations are worth a look (and are trying some test walls, and may include one or two of these in our ind. lab test batch). the most intriguing is:

2 layers soundboard w/green glue then drywall on top (or a drywall/gg sandwich)

so soundboard/gg/soundboard then drywall or drywall/gg/drywall screwed to center of the soundboard sandwich. the presence of GG would raise the damping of the soundboard by an order of magnitude, and even over the 8-12" from the screw location to the studs, an immense amount of energy could be dissipated

Brian

i'd check with local code before not screwing drywall to the studs, BTW.
post #169 of 1298
Brian,

A while back you mentioned in a post:

"i'll be back with another thought on the concrete + air cavity issue later this week"


Any further comment on this? I'm very close to starting the framing on my theater and two of my theater walls(front and left side) will be along concrete walls. I had intended to build these walls with a 1" gap between concrete and wall. I'm interested in what you found and have to say about using this type of wall construction.

Logan
post #170 of 1298
hi logan, thanks for bringing that up. it would appear that i forgot to follow up later that week, eh?

i referenced some tests we were running on that type of resonance (concrete/air/drywall) and Green. To sum, using Green between sheets of drywall was very good, but adding green+something over the concrete didn't improve things enough to justify the cost for all but cost-no-object situations.

i.e.,
concrete/green/plywood/air/stud/drywall/green/drywall
was only marginally better than
concrete/air/stud/drywall/green/drywall

when you comment that you have a 1" gap between concrete and the wall, do you mean 1" between the back of the studs and the concrete or 1" between the back of the drywall on the concrete?

if it's a 2x4 frame + 1", that would leave the concrete ~4.5" away from the drywall - that's the important statistic here - concrete to drywall distance.

Brian
post #171 of 1298
Quote:


Originally posted by Brian Ravnaas
if it's a 2x4 frame + 1", that would leave the concrete ~4.5" away from the drywall - that's the important statistic here - concrete to drywall distance.
Brian

Hi Brian,
I'm interested in the concrete to drywall distance issue - I've got the same thing. 3 walls are concrete - 2 exterior & one long interior. For my exterior walls, I have 1" + 2x4 frame, for a total of 4.5" distance. My interior wall is more flush, for a total of 3.5". All walls will have fiberglass fill, the exterior will have 1" of air space, then 3'5" fiberglass (w/ a vapor barrier), then drywall+GG+drywall. The interior wall will have 3'5" fiberglass, then drywall+GG+drywall.

Does the concrete to drywall distance issue have to deal with resonance? Just yesterday I started doing fiberglass on the interior wall, I'm curious if my distances should change my approach.

Thanks!
Bob
post #172 of 1298
hey Bob,

the air depth will affect the location of the resonance. the combination of the stiffness of the construction, the air cavity depth, and the weight of the drywall layers will determine the location of the resonance frequency.

it's usually good to drive those resonance frequencies down as low as possible.

the situation you describe will not cause problems in either case, proceed.

Brian
post #173 of 1298
Quote:


Originally posted by Brian Ravnaas
the situation you describe will not cause problems in either case, proceed.
Brian

phew - I had to shut down production, now I can start again. Of course it takes a couple of days to get all the equipment warmed up again
post #174 of 1298
Brian,

Thanks for the quick reply. I will have 4.5" concrete to drywall and intend to build the same as Bob; concrete->1"gap->2x4->drywall->GG->drywall. The reason I brought this back up is same as Bob's. Resonance. Thanks for the insight.

Bob - at least you had your equipment running. I'm still trying to get mine to turn over and start for the first time.

Logan
post #175 of 1298
Quote:


Originally posted by elmn8r
....at least you had your equipment running. I'm still trying to get mine to turn over and start for the first time.
Logan

well the problem is I spend too much time on this forum and not enough in the basement!
post #176 of 1298
This question may seem dumb, but can you use Green Glue in non-HT settings, say, like a master bedroom, where there is the stud then GG then drywall?
Could you do this without adding another layer of drywall, so basically you just put the GG on the studs facing the room, and then put the drywall (gg sandwiched between studs+drywall). I know the drywall wouldn't all be covered, but this way the only thing between the drywall and the stud is the green glue, so there would be some sound dampening. Is this approach good? bad? not feasible?
The only reason i am saying, is that I want to use green glue in my HT, however for soundproofing bedrooms, the builder just wants to put high density or high rating fiberglass insulation saying that will do the trick.
Let me know..thanks

- SR -
post #177 of 1298
hey SR

great question - about using GG on only the studs. That's not much surface area, and it's in a fairly low-shear area, so the damping won't approach that of putting it over the whole sheets. But it will (i base this on internal tests) raise TL a few dB from the resonance region up. And since the surface area covered is so low, it's nearly free, and therefore i recommend it.

if you have a bedroom directly off the theater, i recommend more than just that, and how much isolation do you need in the bedrooms?

insulation isn't at it's most effective in normal 2x4 walls, because direct transmission from one side of the wall to the other via the studs lets most of the noise bypass the absorbing material.
post #178 of 1298
Does the green glue retain its flexability over time? How long has the product been in testing?
post #179 of 1298
hey Jneel, i'll answer in a second, but first a note about tech support since this is the Green Glue thread:

we have had some odd email behavior lately, and several messages have seemed to show up a day or so after they were sent. Also, i've gotten a few mails returned lately - some dating back weeks... i am very sorry if i haven't answered in a timely fashion someones query, we're doing the best that we can to figure out WTF is going on.

and never hesistate to just harass us about it. we mean well, and nobodies note has intentionally gone unanswered, so SEND IT AGAIN

post #180 of 1298
hey jneel, that's a great question, someone else had it up above in this thread as well.

GG is 100% modern synthetic polymers, it's not hydrocarbon elastomer material like neoprene, etc., it's not rubber, it's something else. Now the GG formulation has been around for ~ a year, and we've run what stability tests can be run during that time - like heat aging, etc., and have been very pleased with how it stacks up against laternate materials.

we have samples of similar resins that have aged in indoor out-of-light conditions for 15 years without degradation, and we've done what can be done to ensure even more stability. As i said above, the best way to know how something will be after 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 years is to wait 20...50 years, but considering the good quality of the composition and the extremely easy environment (no sun, no heat, etc.), it shouldn't be a concern. We've done what can be done to ensure that.
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