Ordered the BenQ PE7800 - Page 5

Just spoke to my neighbor and he's got the DVE disk. I'll borrow it and post my findings tomorrow. Right now, I'm going to check the sleeping sully pic for comparison.

Just checked the sully shot and mine looks just like speedy's pic. For fun, I pulled up the scene on my 4x3 tv in widescreen letterbox format and I saw even less. So my cropping was worse in letterbox and I'm actually better off.
BTW, I ran the sully test using the DVI input in 480p.

I have no cropping on the 7800 with DVI and 576p.

As I have stated before, I have no cropping isues with mine which I use a HTPC to. I will try to dig up a DVE disk and post some screenshots later, but not the next couple of days though.

I checked yesterday by going from a computer screen to the Benq7800 and then moved the picture through the OSD to see if i would get more, and no I did not have any cropping

I use the 7800 with 625p (= 576p) over DVI on a HTPC (Radeon 9600, Powerstrip), because this is the only resolution (sigh) which works correctly with 50Hz PAL (hearable colorwheel speed change). All other resolutions use internally 60Hz and therefore have massive stuttering at 50Hz material. My cropping is about 25px on each side and about 10px on top and bottom.

The answers to my questions to BENQ support were ambivalent. One time they said, that no firmware update is planned, the other time the statement was, that a firmware update is probably intended.

Well I just got my 7800 in the mail last Friday and got a chance to temporarily hook it up last night.

This is my first projector, and here are some of my first impressions:

1) the thing is built like a tank. Good quality.

2) it comes with every cord imaginable and then some. The box of cables is amazing

3) it has the most straightforward and easy to read users manual I have ever seen. The manual for the crappy Toshiba progressive scan dvd player I am using with it is three times as long and much more confusing

4) it is really easy to use. Just plug stuff in and turn it on. For all newbies out there - this is great

5) we were trying it out in less than optimal conditions. We were projecting onto beige painted panelling! And despite this, and the fact that our dvd player is probably worth $80 if we are lucky...The picture was terrific and really impressive. Especially with darker material like LOTR - which was really crisp and punchy.

For all of you who have ordered this and are nervous - don't be. This is a great projector. I have spent what has seemed like the better part of a year researching here and on projector central. I have gone to a shoot out and have demo'd all kinds of projectors around town. I have no doubts about this projector. Just sit back with a smile on your face knowing you got a fantastic deal.

Incidentally, I saw the 7800 go up against the 8700 at a shootout in the spring. My impression was that there wasn't enough difference between the two projectors to warrant the extra cost for the 8700. They really were that close in picture quality.

I haven't had the opportunity to see the new 700 or HS51 yet, but I really prefer the picture of DLP to LCD, so even with the improvements of these two projectors, I have no regrets pulling the trigger with the 7800. I can't wait to get the theatre room finished and get it installed now!

TV's are not a comparison. They do crop more and thats expected.
I would have said 'so what' if it cropped on the X1 but not on the PE7800. It is the cropping difference between the X1 and the PE7800 that makes me say they can do better and the support is pretty bad.

Using a HTPC may be a workaround because this really shows that the scaler is weak within the PE7800.

For this bug, I like to ask that you use a straight feed of 480p,1080i. Like I said, and the DVE grid shows, the 1080i sourced 16:9 anamorphic video is sharper than the 480p, and 480p from both dvd players crop the same. Plus the cropping is less in 1080i fed to BNC.

Would like to see how DVI shows since this bypasses the D-A converter. Can someone post similar grids, movies shots using DVI?

I also discount that the dvd player is cropping for this issue. I dont know anything about the Zenith but the Panny and the Norcent both displayed the grid in it's entirety on the X1 in 16:9 mode. I wouldnt have a very good argument if that was cropped to begin with.

I have received my 7800 (first pj), and it's in the box along with some other equipment waiting to be assembled. One of the last things I need to do is buy a DVD player, and I think I'm going insane with the information overload reading about the choices. I've tried asking in the DVD Forum, without much success.

Following is an informative post from Paul Bigelow in the Panasonic 97 thread in that forum:
---------------------------
"As it stands, DVDs are all glorified 480i. That's why I wouldn't spend lots of money on a standard definition DVD player ($300 is a lot for some, nothing to others). I have a D-VHS High-Definition recorder that can outperform this or any other DVD player. HD DVD players will be around in a few years.

Until then what can be done with 480i? One step would be to make it a progressive (de-interlaced) signal. To do so properly is not an easy task. There are many progressive tests that DVD players routinely fail. Does passing or failing these test make a difference to one's own viewing? Only the viewer can decide.

What else can be done with the signal? Today's High Definition and Extended Definition TV's are designed to accept 480i/480p/720p (most)/1080i. If the TV doesn't perform a good job at converting a 480i signal to the display's native format then the task can be performed at the DVD player. That's one of the reasons for getting an upconverting player.

My Panasonic TV does a mediocre job of converting 480i and 480p signals to the display's native rate. However, it does a superlative job of processing 1080i signals. My best course of action would be to supply a 1080i signal to the TV every time. Thus, the reason for acquiring a DVD player that supplies a 1080i signal. The Panasonic DVD-S97S supplies such a signal."
---------------------------------
So I am wondering if anyone has an opinion on the 7800's deinterlacing and scaling capabilities. Perhaps this would help me decide whether it makes sense to buy an upscaling player. It just doesn't make too much sense to me to scale something up to 720 only to have the display take it back down to 576.

While I'm sure my best choice is to buy a nicer Denon or something of genuine quality, I think I will buy something cheaper ($100-300) while the technology changes so rapidly. I am SO open to suggestions. Thanks.

The Denon is so so quality in my opinion from the dvd reviews. Not that its bad but I dont think its worth the money. I think the Panasonic S97 is a great player based on previous experiences with other upconverting player and the RP-82.

I do agree that upconverting dvd players are glorified 480i players. But this isnt the issue here. It seems that the PE7800 treats incoming signals differently in terms of cropping.

The scaler in the PE7800 is weak. If a HTPC can help it scale correctly then an iScan HD may be in my future plus a DVI dvd player.

Theres no real rush..wait for the HD-dvd players.

Thanks. This is to get me to five posts so I can post a link.

Just came across this in a review of the 8700, here:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/benq_pe8700+.htm

Overscan. Most video displays factor in a slight bit of overscan to ensure the entire screen is filled with the image. Ideally the edges of the image fall just barely off the screen with minimal loss of picture information. We found overscan tolerances to be just fine with component 480i input, losing less than 2% on both sides of the image. DVI input was of course perfect with the full overscan pattern visible and no image loss. However with component 480p input we found the projector was losing about 5% of the image on the right edge. Generally there is not much going on in this area of the picture, so the loss is not normally noticeable. However when there is subject matter that you know is supposed to be centered on the screen, such as a movie title perhaps, a 5% loss on the right edge is enough to make the title appear off center. We would encourage owners of this projector to use the DVI input anyway for best overall performance, and with DVI overscan errors are a non-issue. Nevertheless, for this projector the overscan loss in 480p is one more reason to get set up with DVI sources.

Excellent.

DVI all the way and no scaler needed. Thanks jake. In most cases the 8700 also applies to the 7800.

Also, to (perhaps) answer my own question about scaling, I found this from the same review of the 8700. I do not know if the 8700 and 7800 use the same scaler/deinterlacer, but the 7800 review suggests that nearly everything is the same in the two projectors:

"Scaling and deinterlacing. In general the PE8700 delivers a sharp, stable image. Scaling and deinterlacing from the Silicon Image SI504 chipset are relatively clean and may be described as typical of this class of product. We see fewer motion artifacts when using 480p and bypassing the internal deinterlacer. The scaling of HDTV 1080i is very good and competitive, but not the best among the population of HD2+ products."

Also, this is what was suggested for the 8700 to obtain the best image (less applicable to the 7800 since it is not 720 native):

"On the PE8700 the cleanest possible image from DVD is derived from a DVD player or video scaler that upscales to 720p and outputs via DVI. This time around we tested it with the DVDO iScan HD video processor and got outstanding results."

I should be able to test DVE through the DVI input tonight.

Also makes sense...I can tell from seeing the image that putting in 1080i results in a cleaner image than 720p.

HDTV on the PE7800 is indeed better than that of the X1.

Also want to point out that the Degamma table which is talked about in the 8700 thread under the service menu should apply to the 7800. I do find the contrast needing some adjustment.

Service menu access is obtained by bringing up the OSD, then pressing power on (left button on top of remote). The bottom right message turns red. Then press menu again to bring up the service menu. I dont remember the degamma table navigation right off top of my head.

The internal Sil504 isnt used but instead the Sil504 in the iScan HD is used. Isnt that silly? Does the 7800 also use Sil504 internally?

These are very sharp on the PE7800 from DVE via 1080i RGB/BNC.




Pirates of the Caribbean



Revised DVE shot of redhead using 1080i RGB/BNC. Theres less red push. Was the fault of my camera.

I borrowed the neighbors DVE disk to compare with SpeedyHTPC's screenshots. I used two different DVD players, a Denon 1910 with a DVI HD upconverting output and a plain jane Panasonic with a progressive scan output. I still don't know how to do camera shots, so no pics. All comments are relative to speedyHTPC's pics.

First up is the Denon 1910
DVI to DVI set to 480p: This looked just like speedyHTPC's DVE pics showing cropped circles.
DVI to DVI set to 720p: This was the best setting. No cropping whatsoever.
DVI set to DVI 1080i: No cropping whatsoever. I did, however, notice an overscan line at the bottom of the screen. This was not apparent in the 720p or 480p settings.
Component to BNC or 480i - This showed minor cropping, but full circles were still visible. Not nearly as bad the DVI set to 480p. Using the 7800 BNC inputs or just the 480i inputs provided the same results.

Second up is the Panasonic. Not nearly as many tests. Just Component to BNC or 480i. This matched the minor cropping on the Denon. Full circles were still visible but still visible cropping. Very neglible IMHO.

My conclusion: To get full resolution with no cropping the best setting is the Denon 1910 using a DVI set to 720p. However, I won't be using that setting. The minor amount of cropping using progressive scan output to the BNC inputs is not worth the extra cost of a 50' DVI cable, professional install of cable, and a DVI enabled DVD player. Additionally, I couldn't tell the difference in video quality between the component and DVI cables. Not to mention a 50' DVI cable may not even work.

Kudos to speedyHTPC for his thorough analysis of the cropping issues with this projector. Fortunately, this can be overcome if desired.

drapp1952's calibrated settings with ColorFacts (brought over from the 8700 thread) did add some punch to the default settings against my white matte screen. Supposedly my screen is <1.0 gain. The end result is a very colorful and saturated image.

Factory Service Menu Settings:

Gamma
Index 70
Red 68
Green 70
Blue 69

Gamma Gain (actually found on the regular OSD on the 7800)
R 512
G 480
B 455

All above must be saved to Video and Data Color Temp 2-6500K

DLP
Brightness: -2 (0 for older bulbs) (set to -1 on 7800 YMMV)
Contrast: 48 (50 for older bulbs) (set to 49 on 7800 YMMV)
Degamma Table: Film

All above must be saved on exit from Factory Service Menu

Picture Menu

Brightness 19
Contrast 21
Color 39
Tint 15
Color temp 2 - This must be the setting for each input to apply above Gamma Gain and Gamma changes.
Red 15
Green 15
Blue 15
Yellow 15

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...58#post3576558

You might at least want to center the image if cropping is not an issue.

Received my 7800 today. I hooked it up and popped in a few different movies. First let me say my current set up is temporary and not ideal. I hope to pick up a copy of Avia or DVE in the next few days so for now, all picture adjustments are done by eye.

Environment:
I have no screen (using a white wall that is not completely smooth). White walls, white ceiling. I have some ambient light coming in, yes even at night, because I have some thin drapes covering large windows overlooking a patio. I will either get some dark, lined drapes or tint the windows. Because the projector was not in its final position, screen size was limited to about 73 inches (diag). I have it mounted low in front of the seating position. After I get it set up in its final location, high behind the main seating position, I will be getting a screen.

DVD Player:
Toshiba 4800, running progressive through component/BNC input.

I watched about 20-30 minutes of Dark City, Hamburger Hill and Romeo+Juliet.

Brief thoughts:
Since this is my first projector, the experience of having such a large screen (even only 73) was quite amazing. I am moving up from a 40" 16:9 Toshiba. It just feels much more like a movie experience. I played around with the lights in the room to see how bright I could make it and still have a watchable picture. I may use one of the memory settings to create a "daylight" calibration for non-critical viewing.

The 7800 seemed quiet in operation. My Series 2 Tivo is easily louder. It didn't matter if I was sitting behind or standing in front, very quiet. Not silent though, you can here a slight fan sound but no color wheel whine.

I think I saw an occassional rainbow. Certainly nothing that I would consider close to a deal breaker. Given my current evironment, I was surprised just how good the picture looked. If it never got any better I would still be happy. The picture seemed VERY bright to the point of being too bright. I am guessing part of that is because I am running such a small screen size, is that correct? I will probably end up around 85"-90" (diag) but I am sure it will be plenty bright for that.

I will hold off on any detailed comments until I get it calibrated especially since the big screen "wow" factor will take some getting use to. I will say based on what I saw tonight, that I am very happy with this projector.

On a side note, I would like to say "THANK YOU!" to every one that has contributed to this thread and the forum in general. Not only did a get a good deal on the 7800 but also for the information/comments by the forum members. Without which, I would still be watching movies on that old Toshiba.

-Keith

SpeedyHTPC:

In regards to the brightness and contrast settings, they should be calibrated through a DVE or AVIA disc by yourself, even if the color settings are really good with the ones you copied.

I found that the brightness and contrast varies quite a bit from projector to projector. I recently had mine switched due to a broken DVI port (I must complement BenQ on their hotswap service, worked flawlessly for me) and the brightness and contrast settings did differ between the projectors in the same enviroment.

Sorry Ginsonic, I dont mean to ignore your post but I do not have 50Hz PAL to test with. Anyone in the 50Hz PAL recommend some settings on the HTPC?

Totally agree. Just posted as an example.

Coming from a simpler X1 menu for these adjustments, I frankly got lost trying it myself. For example, I noticed that the User OSD adjustments for brightness and contrast wasnt as dramatic as the one under Service -> DLP. That made a huge difference. I need to play around it some more.

Thanks.

I also prefer coaxial over optical. Luckily my AVR8000 has 3 of each. I suppose if theres noise in the audio, one would pick optical over coaxial.

Yes the RP 82 has coaxial out and yes its the HK AVR 8000..yesteryear's 5.1 system.

RP-82 manual
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/DVDRP82.PDF

HK AVR 8000
http://www.harmankardon.com/specific...208000&sType=H

Yeah!! I got mine last night and fired up right away... Remind you that this is my first PJ. Wow is the only word that I and my family were able to come up. We watched finding nemo on it and originally I was going to put some other movies on, but kids just did not allow me to switch. So, we ended up watching the whole thing, again.

It was on my white wall in family room since my HT is not done yet. It was bright enough and punchy. The colors were a little off and there are little things but this baby needs tuning once it gets to its permanent residence and a good screen. I am so glad that it is already very good and it will only get better with a screen and other good stuffs that dedicated HT will offer.

Now I have such a great reason to speed up the building process. Thanks everyone.

I just got mine and I can not wait to get the picture looking good. It looked a little washed out when I hooked it up to my Denon 5900 via component (waiting for a DVI cable). Does anyone else use the Denon 5900 with this projector. Also AVS sent me a Chief projector mount is anyone else using this it seems that the base plate is to small.

sda1906,

I also noticed that the picture is a bit washed out. I found that the brightness is cranked way up to cause this. So you might want to adjust it under the service menu -> DLP -> brightness first. Set it to -2. Then fine tune it on the regular OSD menu brightness, then save.