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Poll: Who doesn't own The Rock and why? - Page 2  

post #31 of 188
Oh, ok, I see it now
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/fram...5_kryton.shtml

Have you reconsidered using the radeon? We could use your help in getting it to work, it would be great if you could join the new beta test group being advertised over in htpc forum.

Nice piece of work. I still maintain, though, that an HTPC can't compete with a scaler on sources other than an internal dvd. The deinterlace algorithms just aren't there in the public domain.

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Alex
post #32 of 188
While ROCK does use industry standard parts, the ROCK contains many custom made parts that are very costly. The whole box is a custom made casing made for ease of use and home theater looks - no unnecessary peripherals for the market that we are currently in. No hard disk, no CDROM, no keyboard, no mouse. In ROCK Plus, there is a metal sarcophagus that covers the cards for noise shielding. The input board is a custom circuit board designed by Key Digital specially for us, and even has 'ROCK' silkscreened on it. It costs much more than the most expensive professional 8x8 board currently on the market. It is ultra-low-noise compared to HTPC based 8x8 cards, made with high quality parts. The main source of electronic video noise chiefly comes from CPU and power supply, which we've reduced very significantly in ROCK Plus. We also make our own IR receiving boards as well, along with the front panel LED assembly.

The Kryton looks like an excellent HTPC, however! I enjoy watching HTPC developments. It's a completely different market. Looks like an excellent unit for people who would like a HTPC instead of or in addition to a dedicated scaler! We have no intention to go after Kryton's markets, so I hope it sells well! I own both a HTPC and a ROCK.

The ROCK is not a toy when it comes to the serious sense - if you look at the 34 onscreen displays that we have. The ROCK is a true feature warrior compared to the scaler competition which is a completely different market. Actually, toy can be a compliment: A toy if interpreted in one sense because it caters to the overall ENTERTAINMENT market, which is what HTPC's and scaler's contribute to, because they are one of the nuts and bolts in a high-end entertainment system!

Also - I bet my 3:2 pulldown algorithm [ Public Paper I Wrote ] that put in DScaler I bet you will be running on Kryton! You may be aware that I have contributed a lot of algorithms to DScaler, including 3:2 pulldown detection and JudderTerminator, which John Adcock implemented into the software.

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Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-12-2001).]
post #33 of 188
A lot has happened since that article, much of the hardware (and software) has changed. I have been using a Radeon for a couple of months now with great results. The scaling/deinterlaceing of external sources is still a bit of an issue with 'open' HTPCs but I'm sure that it will get there. I'm taking Kryton to a big event in Glasgow where it will be against the Rock and the likes, I'm pretty confident on the DVD playback, but hopefully I can get the scaler part up to scratch. I have ordered in fairly high end video input card which I should get tomorrow.

Jeff
post #34 of 188
I looked but it wasn't 3+ times better then the CI I paid $900 for. Phil. I try never to buy any first generation product (except for DVD).

AVB
post #35 of 188
Hey, I haven't made any trouble here lately http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif, but is anyone else here bothered by Mark R. appearing in this thread and SELLING the Rock?? Isn't this thread supposed to be about the reasons people haven't bought the Rock?

- Marc
post #36 of 188
I have a right to defend the ROCK - somebody called it a toy! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

I've actually complimented on the impressive Kryton HTPC design. One would think I was marketing the Kryton more than I was marketing the ROCK, so I don't understand your concern!

What wording changes would you suggest to my post, that will accomplish the goal of defending the product, without marketing the ROCK product? (Unless you also happen to agree that ROCK is a toy too and that Kryton is not http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif )

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Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-12-2001).]
post #37 of 188
Mark,

Kryton has some quite exotic internals that could be described as custom made, the PSU for example is a PPC Silencer 400 with a 12db Papst fan. The case is covered on the inside with industrial sound deadening material. The Radeon card has a replacement heat sink with no fan. The DVD drive has been modified to reduce noise/vibration. The list goes on. The OS is a stripped down version of Windows 98 SE with a replacement front-end. All remote control of the PCs functions are via Philips pronto. Like the Rock Windows is never visible.

Jeff
post #38 of 188
Mark,

I just noticed that you added to your post, yes I will be using DScaler, thankyou. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Jeff
post #39 of 188
Mark made an additional point that I forgot to make: The quality of the input card. He also buttressed my argument about public domain deinterlacing, but since he's one of the guys who wrote dscaler as well as clearmatrix, he speaks with more authority on that subject then me.

I own a radeon HTPC I built from the motherboard up (lapped heat sink and all). I've been working with computers since punch cards, and pc's since overclocking an AT to 8mhz. And I'm in the market for a scaler. But I'm a computer/htpc piker compared to mark. His insights are always valuable.

If mark is selling the rock, its only by exhibiting style and class.

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Alex
post #40 of 188
Mark R. has plenty of opportunity to sell the Rock, and I don't have any particular problem with it (as long as everyone knows his affiliation). But his appearance in this particular thread will tend to dissuade dissenters from posting. Therefore, I think he shouldn't post here.

- Marc
post #41 of 188
BTW, if anyone wants to see how fun an HTPC can be, check out this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/012147.html#14

A "turnkey" htpc won't have these problems of course UNTIL you need to upgrade something. But, of course, with an HTPC you will upgrade something at some point, the "flexibility" of an HTPC is a major selling point. You're going to need a better input card. You're going to upgrade from geforce to ati at some point. You're going to need the version of powerstrip that works with the version of ati player that works with your driver that works with xyx that.....

This post I beleive is OT because I don't think an HTPC is a substitue for a scaler. An HTPC is a hobby. A scaler is a consumer elctronic.

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Alex

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Alex
post #42 of 188
Flame Finished

Bring on your reasons for not buying a rock, even if is because you bought or are selling an HTPC.

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Alex
post #43 of 188
I was hoping to learn more about the Cinematrix PSM-2.

If the PSM-2 were to use a Faroudja de-interlacing chip, that would make it a serious price/performance contender! That would, in one swoop, make it an all digital scaler with the best de-interlacing available, as well as eliminate any chroma bug becuase of Faroudja's de-interlacing method.

Does anybody know what pre-packaged player Cinematrix is using with the PSM-2 or any other details on the PSM-2?

For me, I am going the way of the Vigatec scaler and hope to use two of the three SDI inputs. One SDI input used for a Meridian 800 with an SDI output card made by Vigatec. And hopefully the second will be used by a Dish 6000 modified for SDI output. I'm not sure if the Dish 6000 with SDI will come to fruition however (I hope so). The Vigatec is certainly upgradeable and I look forward to the the upgrades that are going to take place. I realize I violated the price/performance protocol, it is just that I already have an 861. I also love multichannel music and look forward to DVD-A. The Meridian 800 will be able to pass a digital DVD-A signal to a Meridian 861 with the new upgrades slated for September. With the advent of an SDI output card for the Meridian 800, and some very notable upgrades planned for the Vigatec, I couldn't resist.

I really hope the PSM-2 is capable of working in more players. As was noted in another thread, a gentleman from France routinely modifies quite a few DVD players with PSM-1 cards. I hope the PSM-2 is at least as friendly and hopefully more so, in terms of being able to be placed in a variety of players. I am still using a Sony 7700 with PSM-1, Cinematrix. This is a great bang for the buck and very easy to use. I anxiously await more info on the PSM-2. I hope MSB technology can offer some PSM-2 mods. If not, getting it done abroad is worth it IMO.

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Pictures: The Worm Hole Theater featuring the Black Hole Subs and Death Star Platform
post #44 of 188
I'm not going to stand in the way of people posting reasons why they won't buy a ROCK. Go right ahead and bring the thread back on topic.

I just had to point out the information regarding ROCK being a "toy". That deserved a response - if ROCK is a toy, then so is Faroudja http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK
post #45 of 188
Mark -

There are many reasons something might be called a "toy", so it doesn't follow that the Faroudja must be a toy if the Rock is. For example, "Compared to the Faroudja the Rock looks like a toy." is fair enough.

- Marc
post #46 of 188
To be fair, it all started with Jeffy's post selling his HTPC. Sort of like Yves Faroujda posting why he didn't buy a snell and wilcox. It was a good, friendly exchange and we all learned something new.

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Alex
post #47 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by mblank:
but is anyone else here bothered by Mark R. appearing in this thread and SELLING the Rock?? - Marc
I'm not.

As a matter of fact, I'd be interested in a continued dialog with Mark where he disputes people's reasoning for passing on the Rock. It would help in my decision making process by breaking out the marketing jargon from the real benefits.

Without Mark, it's an interesting conversation but also one-sided. Besides, how can anyone say anything positive about the Rock and not be accused of selling it. Let's cut him some slack.

--Les
post #48 of 188
Quote:
Hey, I haven't made any trouble here lately , but is anyone else here bothered by Mark R. appearing in this thread and SELLING the Rock?? Isn't this thread supposed to be about the reasons people haven't bought the Rock?

But his appearance in this particular thread will tend to dissuade dissenters from posting. Therefore, I think he shouldn't post here.

I got blasted when I asked why non-Rock owners were posting in the thread Poll:Who owns a Rock, so I guess turnabout is fair play. If the "dissenters" (as you call them) have free reign to post in the "Poll: Who owns a Rock" thread, then I think Mark R. is entitled to defend his product here.

Sorry, can't have it both ways!



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DMan
The Academy Home Theater
post #49 of 188
I never posted on the "Who Owns a Rock" thread and I agree that it would have been wrong for a non-Rock owner to do so. However, as I'm sure you learned a while back, two wrongs don't make a right ... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

- Marc

p.s. By the way, DMan, you really should do something about those teeth.


[This message has been edited by mblank (edited 07-12-2001).]
post #50 of 188
No deletions (yet) or edits (yet). But please be very careful not to let this turn into another mud fight. I see nothing wrong with Rock owners discussing what motivated them to buy the Rock, nor do I see any issues with folks that haven't bought the Rock discussing why they did not - provided that both threads remain civil and respectful of those posting their respective reasons for buying/not buying the Rock.

Tom

Whew, just read what I wrote and even I'm confused! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif The gist was quite simply PLAY NICE!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by tommyboy2 (edited 07-12-2001).]
post #51 of 188
Again (and finally), my reason for thinking that Mark R. is wrong to post in THIS thread is that it should be possible for folks to answer the original question without fear of being contradicted by TAW. Just as those who were asked why they DO own a Rock shouldn't be subjected to contradiction from other manufacturers. This is simply a matter of courtesy.

- Marc

[This message has been edited by mblank (edited 07-12-2001).]
post #52 of 188
Back on to the topic. Reasons for not buying a Rock:
*GREEN TINT
*LIMITED PROCESSING POWER TO DO YC CONTROLS AND OTHER FUNCTIONS SIMULTANEOUSLY
*BELOW AVERAGE TO POOR DEINTERLACING ON FILM AND VIDEO
*COLOR BANDING
*QUALITY CONTROL ISSUES (SAID TO HAVE BEEN BETTER AS OF LATE)
*BUILD QUALITY IS FLIMSY AND POOR (WEIGHS NEARLY NOTHING)
*ALL AROUND BAD ATTITUDE FROM MANUFACTURERS

Now let me continue. The fact they shut their forums down to the public is just part of the attitude. Personally, I don't care and have no reason to go there. Besides, there are more Rock owners posting here anyway, so I can get all of the dirt pretty quick. Shutting down the forums indicates to me, that there is something to hide from the public. Don't tell me it is due to flamers and bad posts, they are present on every single type of forum on the net and people already know that. If I were a ROCK owner, I would be pretty pissed right about now knowing that a new and improved unit will be replacing my ROCK rendering it inferior when in fact, I was promised it to be fully upgradeable. No upgrade will give it the HP to do multi functions simultaneously but, it seems important enough that the new unit can do it, why is that?
As I have said many times before, if a scaler can't do deinterlacing it isn't worth spit. I have no need for an outboard scaler to show me stairstepping and jagged lines, I can use my displays internal scaler and save alot of money and cables. The Rock can never and will never be able to scale like a Faroudja, not now, not ever and software version 3009.23 won't do it either. That stuff cannot be bought off the shelf and is proprietary to companies like Faroudja. This is not another comparison thread, been there and done that. I am simply stating that better deinterlacing is available and that is the MAIN reason any of us buy scalers. I find the ROCK to be a glorified HTPC and I could build a better unit from aftermarket parts, if that was my intention. You started the thread and asked for resons, those are mine. I will not reply to slams and stupidity, if you have a comment make it but, be an adult, I was.
post #53 of 188
Please, lets not get this thread closed.

Mark simply responded to a rival manufacturers statements.

I was the one who started the "who owns a rock thread". Its the child of another thread I started and deleted when I discovered my topic question offended some people. My followup has generated useful information.

This thread has useful information.

Thats all we're here for

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Alex
post #54 of 188
eric

Your comments imho are certainly on topic and useful. I hope this doesn't degenerate into mud slinging.

*GREEN TINT
Since key digital has programmable green and red push, maybe new rock has solved this problem through software

*LIMITED PROCESSING POWER TO DO YC CONTROLS AND OTHER FUNCTIONS SIMULTANEOUSLY
Solved with Rock+?

*BELOW AVERAGE TO POOR DEINTERLACING ON FILM AND VIDEO
Clearmatrix?

*BUILD QUALITY IS FLIMSY AND POOR (WEIGHS NEARLY NOTHING)
Western Electric (Lucent) used to put a big paperweight in their telephones to give it "a more solid feel". I admit, though, I bought a big ass-heavy 4U rackmount chasis cause I like the look.

*QUALITY CONTROL ISSUES (SAID TO HAVE BEEN BETTER AS OF LATE)
They've been cut alot of slack because its preproduction pains, and they have fixed problems. Will admit, if this was from a regular consumer product company they'd get a lot more heat for it.

*ALL AROUND BAD ATTITUDE FROM MANUFACTURERS
Potential for mudslinging. Will admit objective fact that they seem to generate more then their share of animosity.

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Alex

[This message has been edited by work permit (edited 07-12-2001).]
post #55 of 188
ericbee,

No comments about how people may feel about TAW Inc. but, there is something I need to point out:

>>"The Rock can never and will never be able to scale like a Faroudja"

Now, that's a pretty strongly biased statement. There are many people who will disagree with you, including Vern Dias and Patrick Bennett. I do consider Faroudja a worthy competitor. They are more close to the same level than you think now. You can simply ask tommyboy when he compares the latest Faroudja NR and the latest ROCK Plus. Hyperlinks to several Faroudja-ROCK comparisions reviews are available if you look for them.

Correction to your misinformation #1: The only place where the processing power is limited is SOLELY to Y/C delay and ClearMatrix ... No other function are disabled! You can do Y/C delay or you can do the improved ClearMatrix algorithm. ROCK Plus allows you to do both.

Correction to your misinformation #2: The ROCK is fully upgradeable to ROCK Plus. We haven't misadvertised the ROCK's hardware and software upgradeability. We are actually following up on that with a generous upgrade discount to existing ROCK owners. Many of our ROCK owners are ecastic that they are able to upgrade their ROCK to ROCK Plus to inexpensively get the extra processing power that they need for this feature. People have noticed that the picture quality leap between ROCK Firmware 1.x.0 and ROCK Firmware 2.2.1 is actually bigger than the upgrade from a very old Faroudja LD-series line doubler to a Faroudja 3000, even including improved sharpness caused by the ability to make Y/C adjustment that didn't exist in 1.2.0 firmware. Pratically all ROCK owners don't share your sentiment. And when/if RADEON becomes pratical and stable for our needs, we'll most definitely offer that upgrade down the road.

Correction to your misinformation #3: Faroudja are excellent scalers and we do consider them one of our primary competitors. We are happy to be able to compete with them. You make it sound like we're so far behind Faroudja. Your arguments make it sound like you're comparing an old ROCK to a top-of-the-line 5-figure-priced Faroudja 5000 scaler, which is not an apples-to-apples comparision! Instead, please let the professional reviewers rip apart the good and bad of ROCK and Faroudja. You'll see that the two are much more balanced than you think, with some favours going to one and others going to the other. I am going to refrain from elaborating any further, since I would sound like I am marketing the ROCK - I stop only to correct your misinformation. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

Correction to your misinformation #4: "scale" could be construed as a generic word so there is room for misunderstanding. Taken literally, you mean the interpolation in adding scanlines beyond 480p. If this is the case, why did some people find that the current ROCK units sharper in this than many of Faroudja units including Faroudja 3000 in its ability to do interpolation, especially for film mode? Why is the clarity of the 6.75 Mhz pattern better looking than Faroudja 3000's own? On the other hand, did you mean one carefully-selected characteristic of the ROCK scaling that compares poorly to Faroudja - Did you mean Deinterlacing or scaling? Realtime image processing? (noise filter, chroma, sharpness, etc)? Film mode? Video mode? Antialiasing? Which ROCK compared to which Faroudja? You may want to point out if you're comparing a super-top-of-the-line Faroudja 5000 to a super-early pre production ROCK. Depending on which Faroudja unit, we clearly know one of the units is clearly better in some categories and the other is clearly better in other categories. Obviously, if you meant Firmware 1.x.0's video deinterlacing or the early combing problems, yes, that really clearly and obviously sucked compared to Faroudja current catalog of units. But you didn't specifically point which part of ROCK's scaling capabilities was so terrible compared to Faroudja. It's the overal picture quality experience that counts the most.

No comment to any of the other things you said, except most of it is behind us now, and I no comment to people's opinion of TAW in this thread... You're pretty much describing an early pre-production ROCK with Version 1.0.0 firmware. You've clearly missed the massive picture quality improvements offered by the firmware 2.x.x for both film mode and video mode.

ericbee, I get the hint that a Faroudja engineer who looked at an older ROCK, have been feeding you some exaggerations. .... (This is just an impression, that's all - no offence intended to Faroudja themselves, I'm just observing an impression). They probably wouldn't update you on any positive changes they observed when they upgraded to Firmware 2.2.1 .... While Faroudja units are most certainly respectable, neither unit is perfect, but what you've said seems to insert a false interplanetary distance between ROCK and the sub-$20,000 Faroudja units.

Normally I won't be posting in this thread, yes we clearly had teething problems, but very good portions of your post contains very clearly obvious misinformation! People can make a more accurately informed decision to buy Faroudja / ROCK, than that!

/////

Disclaimer: Portions of my post may look like that I am advertising the ROCK. Really, I'm not trying to get anybody to buy a ROCK from this post. Faroudja is a pretty good competitor and they contribute quite an amazing amount to the home theater market. I respect them for that, in the good sportmanship manner. I am defending against the following chasm-like generic statement: "The Rock can never and will never be able to scale like a Faroudja" ... My goal here is to defend against misinformation. Leave it to the professional reviewers, not biased information from me or a Faroudja engineer!

------------------
Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-13-2001).]
post #56 of 188
Not a joke! Incremental bucks vs. one time cost.

I bought a DC-1, later upgraded to MC-1 (yummy!). The CG I bought used about 1/2 price.

Dropping 4-5K on a scaler is just not in the budget for me. I bought a Quadscan at a powerbuy price and have been very happy with it, but now needing more scalability due to upcoming panamorph (also bought at discount on pre/power-buy).

Lesson: it pays to hang around this forum. Saves quite a bit of money. Of course that "savings" still empties my bank account http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/eek.gif



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Lex MC1/Sunfire CG/Hales Rev3's x3/M&K SS150 tripoles/Quadscan/Plus UP1100/Homemade screen
post #57 of 188
I just stood on my digital scale, and weighted my HTPC when I picked it up (while still running, I like to live dangeruosly!) It clocked in at 45 lbs. There's a bigass sticker on the front, stolen from a DVD package. It says "security device enclosed'. Where do I pick up my prize? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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goosystems.com

Ken Hotte
kbk@cyberfreak.dhs.org
post #58 of 188
Ok, here's the link for the new Cinematrix DVD player, the Delphi, which uses the PSM2. Looks real nice!
http://www.itccomp.nl/htwebf/ITCHT/d...dvd_speler.htm

There is also a PDF file showing an illustration of the front of the player. Frank Doorhof will hopefully be able to provide more info soon! No price, no specs as yet.

Paul
post #59 of 188
quote: mblank
---------
"Hey, I haven't made any trouble here lately"
-----------


you're right, there were no closed threads for awhile....

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Mike Parker
post #60 of 188
Mark, if you truly believe that Faroudja tech's (who to this day I have NEVER spoken to no matter how many times I have tried) have ever actually even seen a ROCK than, you have been staring into your monitor too long. I am sure you will take offense, but comparing a Faroudja to a Rock is like asking A mercedes engineer if he has seen the new Ford Escort, please be serious. The deinterlacing algorithm is inferior so much so in fact, that I will once again place a wager. You Rock guys put up $5000 to my $5000, in cash. We will use any Rock, Emerald, Rock plus, Emerald, Emerald Deluxe, Rock Plus Jr. version 5.0 whatever. If a group of independant viewers says that the Rocks deinterlacing is better than the Faroudja, you got my $5000. We can use your cables, display device, projector anyway you want. But, if the Faroudja deinterlaces better you lose your $5000. Be very careful before you bet, because I will broadcast this test on the Net like it's the superbowl and someone is gonna lose. If I lose it's $5000 if you lose its $5000 and the whole Rock "facade". Put up or shut up, now's your chance. I have no interest in rebutting every one of your comments to my comments, that can go on forever. Let's just say those are my reasons for not buying a Rock, I have seen one in person and I stand pat on my statements. What happens when Tommyboys Rock plus arrives DOA. Another coincidence? Or when the deinterlacing still lacks, what then? Rock Superplus delux with even more CPU power? Will you guys ever stop this? Unfortunately I think not. No matter what you test, it can be improved. No matter how improved, there will be a next generation that is even better. Tommy tested the Rock and accurately told of it's faults. Go ahead, send him another, send him a new model, it won't change the deinterlacing algorithm unless you put a Faroudja in the box and don't tell anyone. I really hope you take my bet, I would love the credit for putting you guys down and out once and for all.

Just one addition: The same scale rates must be used, you can't run a 480 faroudja with a 960 Rock, and this bet applies to the LOWEST priced Faroudja NR scalers not the megabuck models.

[This message has been edited by ericbee (edited 07-13-2001).]
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