Poll: Who doesn't own The Rock and why? - Page 3  

No need for the $5k side bet. Tommy is getting a clearmatrix rock. I assume there's nothing else "earthshattering" TAW is working on with its deinterlacing algorithm; they can tweak it from here but short of bug fixes this is it.

This should be a definitive review.

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Alex

I want the $5000 cash, that's MY NEED! Tommy is also getting a corrected version of the NR DILA, with corrected red issues and NO rolloff. Let's see what he finds.

LOL

Paul

ericbee,

I see you admit you meant "deinterlacing" not "scaling". You weren't clear in the first place! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif And I don't think you mentioned which ROCK you saw, probably an older unit with Version 1.x.x firmware. If you did, then I would have not bothered to respond except a brief comment about the word "never".

//////

I won't take upon the bet if you constrain to "deinterlacing" only. There is insufficient knowledge about DCDi versus ClearMatrix, but I know Faroudja has WAY MORE experience in video-based deinterlacing. Faroudja has been in the market for over 10 years. I haven't compared ClearMatrix and DCDi myself.

We have pulled off miraculous feats in less than half a year, with massive picture quality improvements. We also have the advantage of Moore's law more cheaply than Faroudja has, and we have the option of taking advantage of future parallelism, over the next few years. The ROCK has been out for only a bit more than 3 months, and look at the picture quality improvements it has already experienced. Yes, it may require a mere upgrade in a year (while Faroudja wants you to replace the unit!) if we release a massively better algorithm than ClearMatrix in next year or two. Even if DCDi was better than ClearMatrix (which I haven't compared), we already know we blow away Faroudja in several areas Faroudja does the same in others. It's the whole package that counts. You'll see we're closer to the same level than you think.

On the other hand, I am tempted to take upon the bet if you mean "overall picture quality experience" on movie DVD's. I am tempted to take upon your bet. Now if the CRT projector is configured to 72 Hz, then I would be more likely to ask you to sign me, but it also depends on the Faroudja. Clearly I would decline if you suggested the Faroudja 5000 which cost several tens of thousand of dollars.

It's easy for Faroudja to win the bet on a certain feature, while it's easy for ROCK to win the bet on a different feature. All one needs to do is focus on said feature. We believe there are more features and characteristics that ROCK would win the bet on, than Faroudja. Your car comparision is inaccurate - do you know how cheap some of the chips inside a Faroudja unit is, in the name of mass manufacture. Yes, their casing may be more propritary than ours - and they may have more custom circuit boards than ours. They would win in that category. And the common 8-bit limitation is an easy target to aim at too. And yes, Faroudja may have fancier case designs - but there are several stylish designs coming over the years.

HOWEVER, in the name of good sportmanship, and in the name of business ethics, I do not partake in any betting contests. Even if the odds are in my favour, I will decline because of these reasons.

My primary point is that you'd be pretty surprised at how *overall* balanced Faroudja vs ROCK is, these days. It's the whole package that counts...

Eventually, whoemever you saw that ROCK from, will eventually upgrade it to a ROCK Plus. (Unless it was returned, of course!) Yes, what you saw was probably an older ROCK and with Firmware 1.x.0 ... I'm not surprised at your early impressions which are understandably realistic if referring the an older unit, but more and more portions of your impressions are less and less true as time passes... I am not going to repeat the teething problems (early DOA, green push, Firmware 1.x.x, pre-ClearMatrix deinterlacing, EMERALD preannouncements, etc.) but you very well know them. Give us credit for the massive improvements over the last few months! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

It's a shame it would go down to petty things like betting contests on this. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif ... I guess I struck a nerve with ericbee?

After all I agree with ericbee on the picture problems of preproduction ROCK's with ROCK firmware 1.x.x but not about his use of word "never". You said you saw a ROCK. Is that your ROCK? The ROCK Plus is a far more mature version of our ROCK product. If so, it's an inexpensive upgrade to a ROCK Plus - it's like getting a new scaler, a 4-figure or 5-figure price leap in picture quality. Then you would be more qualified to make comparisions. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-13-2001).]

Moores's Law?? Parallelism???

Ok, I'm lost - can we please keep this thread to words of less than one syllable for those of us who are a bit thick!
Thank you

Paul

Why not? Another Sun Tzu moment http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Alex

Moore's Law: Ever faster and faster CPU's become available on market as time passes.

Parallelism: The ability to run multiple inexpensive off-market CPU's or even add-on DSP boards in parallel inside the same box.

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Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-13-2001).]

I'm the ogre who invaded the "Who owns a Rock?" thread. It was a bit off-topic, this thread is on-topic.

I don't know Phil but made a comment based on his closing parts of the TAW forum to reading. It really got to Dman, sorry about that.

I still can't justify spending $5K for a scaler. I can understand the CRT advocates because they have to deal with scan lines. I use a DTC100 and the RGB or VHDC300 component output. It makes no sense to send things to s-video.

I've sent stuff through dScaler and have seen little improvement in quality outside of some minor motion artifacts.

Mark responded talking about pulldown ratios. Maybe I'm immune but I have a hard telling the difference in pulldown. Most NTSC broadcast stuff is so pitiful that worrying about pulldown is secondary IMO. Putting a $5K processor in the datapath is not like going from 480p to 1080i in quality.

For $5K, I'd much rather spend the money on a better projector.

The main reason I'd consider a processor is for aspect ratio control.


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Ken Elliott

So now that we have cleared the air on who DEINTERLACES better, please tell me a single category where the ROCK fares better? And you know the NR does not do 72hz so why even make that request. I told you to compare a 60 hz 720p NR to the identically set up ROCK and tell me ONE SINGLE CATEGORY WHERE THE ROCK BEATS THE NR? Clear enough?

Good trap, ericbee. Good one. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif Now people will think I have something to hide because my answer would be a blatant advertisement, which will cause people to complain about me.

The air hasn't been cleared, because I do not know if ClearMatrix deinterlaces better than DCDi ... Even if DCDi is slightly better on most video material, I know we have the advantages of incremental improvements that aren't possible without mailing a Faroudja unit BACK to Faroudja.

I can think of plenty where the NR wins and ROCK wins. And because there are differences that shine one way or another, it also depends on the DVD.

I think everybody knows I'll be marketing the ROCK if I reply to ericbee's post. We can compare notes offline if you'd like - you can of course, help us improve our products. Email me at marky@ottawa.com and I'll reply with a reply to the post. I do not want to reply here because my reply will predictably be marketing ROCK.

Just so that I have nothing to hide, please email me at marky@ottawa.com .

I give ericbee some credit for highlighting a shortcoming in many Faroudjas' products. Many of them cannot do 72 Hz. Yes, ROCK with 2.2.x firmware ( list of improvements ) will win more unamiously for film material at 72 Hz because of the advantages of 72 Hz. You dodged that one, but you also revealed a Faroudja shortcoming.

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Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-13-2001).]

Hi Ken

Artifacting can be pretty obvious with DVD when you have a big screen and are sitting close to it. Thats really what a good scaler does for you, lets you sit closer without saying yuch.

High refresh rates are for us crt heads. I have an nec 135, and am getting a g90 soon. I sit 12' away from an 8' wide screen.

With a crappy signal, I agree its all lost in the noise (literally). But even with digital cable (and a big screen) you'd be surprised.

Problem with deinterlacing artifacts is that it really does look bad and detracts from the illusion that you're looking at film (even though it may only happen occaisonally).

On the scaling side, cheap units definetly soften the image, as well do other smudgy things.

I'll also add that on my first generation plasma, none of this really makes a difference. I wonder how different things are on the newest units.

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Alex

[This message has been edited by work permit (edited 07-13-2001).]

Everyone knows and can read above, what my feelings are regarding the Rock. I didn't dodge a bullit but, you are trying to. I asked you to tell me where the Rock outperforms the Faroudja, no sale pitch required just tell me (us) where. I never said the Rock would look better at 72hz I said the Faroudja is not designed for 72, or 56 or 99 or 107, it's designed at 60hz like almost everything else is, so comparing anything but a 60hz configuration is unfair. Let me go on record now, that I feel there is not a single area where the Rock outperforms the Faroudja NR not even the 3000 or 5000, the NR. Please tell me an area or areas where it does. I am requesting information, you are not hawking it, please tell us.

Mark: I won't hold it against you if you give us your thoughts.

Eric: To be fair, we should compare what a rock can do to what a faroujda can do. If the rock can do 72hz and FA can't, well, tough. If 72hz looks better, give that advantage to the rock in your $5000 shootout.

Hey, even Trinidad loses a few rounds. He even gets knocked down.

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Alex

[This message has been edited by work permit (edited 07-13-2001).]

>>"I didn't dodge a bullit but, you are trying to."

That's debatable; I am sure there are people here that would disagree.

First, one needs to adjust Chroma Delay in ROCK, as not all ROCK's are optimally calibrated for Chroma Delay from the factory. Use the AVIA Y/C pattern for that. This is the most common complaint, especially with older ROCKs, that Y/C needs to be calibrated first. Otherwise, the image can look too soft and/or fringed.

////

There are many I can point out, but I will start with one and see how you approach with an answer. (I'd love to see you do so). AVIA Resolution Test Pattern - Faroudja 3000 cannot do 6.75 Mhz properly artifact-free. The ROCK can do that one artifact-free. What do you say to that?

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Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-13-2001).]

Work permit,

Since digital projectors and STBs have scalers, just not perfect ones and sometimes cruddy ones, the level of artifacting is highly variable.

I've used dScaler and it does help with high motion video, but I don't find the normal picture that objectionable.

I've seen some really horrible artifacts at HDTVs at Best Buy.

Most digital projectors are seeing improved scaling especially as new models appear. It is becoming much more difficult for custom scalers to be a differentiating factor worth $5K.

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Ken Elliott

Ericbee wants you to compare to an NR, not a 3000.

Maybe afraid Lenox Lewis is out of shape http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Alex

People seem to forget what the NR is. It is a set/fixed rate scaler. Forgetting how it looks, that is the design and it's sole purpose. To tell me it doesn't do multiple refresh rates, scaling rates or any other rates is not and "advantage" or "disadvantage". It is not supposed to do those things. The point I am trying to make is that there is no reason to buy ANY ROCK if your display device is one rate and you don't plan on changing it. In this situation, which I feel is most situations, the NR does EVERYTHING better than a Rock. I am trying to use an NR rate, any one but a DILA for now, and compare that exact rate on a ROCK. Tweak all the sttings you want on the ROCK to get it as good as possible and I say it will be worse than the NR. Alter the contrast, hue, tint, whatever, the NR out of the box will look better. The scaling, deinterlacing, pulldown etc. The NR does not have an SDI input so, if you need one get something else. Compare a v6 to a v6 not a v8. To say a v8 is faster may be true, but it is supposed to be, it is a v8. I am saying the NR betters the Rock on any identical scaling/refresh rate. Can I be more clear?

REPLY TO MARK: The 6.75 test circle is sharper on my 720p NR than it was on a ROCK set to 720p, look at my photos and you will see. Maybe a peek at TK CHAN's 6.75 photos on his 3000 might keep you quiet as well. Search for them and ye shall find. Also, you didn't mention it but you should have..the fact that you can adjust Y/C delay is definately a plus for the ROCK. The fact you can not use the proprietary deinterlacing at the same time is a minus, so I wash those 2 out as an even. How can you tout your 2 best features, YC and deinterlacing, when they can't even be used in conjunction with each other? Don't start talking about the Rock plus, cause I will chime in on the new Chroma fix for the NR's due out in 2 weeks.

[This message has been edited by ericbee (edited 07-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by ericbee (edited 07-13-2001).]

Hey ken.

Its really tough question to answer, is quality x worth $5000. Everyone has their own utility function.

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Alex

Eric:

Its fair to compare the rock at only a single resolution to an NR at its native rate. That's what you're saying: for a given display device you only need a single optimum resolution. But the refresh rate is different, just cause faroujda doesn't have it doesn't mean it can't add value.

To use your analogy, you should compare a six cylinder car to an 8 cylinder car with two of its cylinders clogged up.

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Alex

He said ">>Let me go on record now, that I feel there is not a single area where the Rock outperforms the Faroudja NR not even the 3000 or 5000, the NR. Please tell me an area or areas where it does." which is even more of a debatable statement. So I pointed out one thing that shatters this statement. Problems with this 6.75 Mhz pattern also affects aliasing artifacts on movie DVD's (especially super-sharp Columbia-Tristar DVD's). We've even had a comment that ROCK with the fixed green push, after calibration, does actually look more filmlike than the Faroudja 3000 picture which looks slightly more videolike. And at 72 Hz, there is really no contest especially during fast motion scenes and panning scenes, including the flyover scene on Titanic, high speed car chases in Ronin, the space fighting intro on Lost in Space, the flying cars zooming by in Fifth Elements. I think there is no contest with Faroudja here, in those particular scenes to a 72 Hz ROCK on a CRT projector. In an A/B test, the ROCK is no doubt more filmlike in motion in these fast movie scenes. Yes, you can find material (ie orange cloudy intro in Gladiator DVD, good banding test) where the Faroudja 3000 shines, but that is an exception. I dare you to compare. Of course, I am talking purely about movie DVD's, which most non-HTPC people mainly use scalers for. Again, I apologize if I sounded like I was advertising ROCK. But I needed to correct misinformation. See for yourself with an actual Faroudja 3000 and an actual recent-caliber ROCK (or a ROCK Plus).

I don't have as much experience with Faroudja NR as I do with observations of Faroudja 3000 to say much about the Faroudja NR, but from what I've heard from people comparing the two, what you've said have been too much of an exaggeration. Anyway, I'm getting tired of the politics, and I'm beginning to be afraid I'm overdoing pushing ROCK.

My closing words is that I dare tommyboy to do a honest fully in-depth comparision of both Faroudja NR and ROCK+ packages. I'm confident that he will highlight the good and bad in a bias-free manner in the more defect-free versions of the Faroudja and ROCK products. He will do it fairly, pitting the best of ROCK versus the best of NR, in a fair apples to apples comparision.

Reply to Ericbee: Yes, I do know that the NR 6.75 looks better in Ericbee's photos on NR versus the first-generation ROCK. But here's my photo of the ROCK+ 6.75 Mhz pattern, taken from a computer monitor in my development room. Despite the computer monitors' phosphor pattern, see the difference, ericbee?

http://www.marky.com/misc/screenshots/rock/675mhz.jpg
Rock+ rendering of 6.75 Mhz (Lowly Toshiba SD1200 player)

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Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-13-2001).]

Have a good night sleep.

And buy yourself an nr in the morning, it can only help your development effort

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Alex

Yeah, time to hit the sack http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

I have access to scalers at some fellow home theater homes, and I do travel from time to time, so I don't really need to own any of the scalers. I also go to conventions, sometimes Faroudja is there. The next one I am going to be at is at CEDIA. Personally, I'd rather reinvest a few thousand dollars of my own income in ROCK customer satisfaction than on a Faroudja NR.

Not going to bother anymore with this thread, it's too off topic already. Several magazine reviews will be hitting later this summer. And yes, online reviews such as tommyboy.

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Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-13-2001).]

Then get phil to spring one for you...

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Alex

Just in case someone got the wrong end of the stick, I'm not selling anything. You won't see any Krytons up for sale, frankly it would come out too expensive.

Mark,

Wasn't it better when you just did this stuff for fun ?! If the TAW thing doesn't work out I'm sure that the DScaler team would have you back with open arms. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Jeff

I still do it all for fun. I have no intention to stop working on the ROCK and other TAW projects. The politics and defending of the product can get quite time consuming sometimes, but the fun of the programming I do for the ROCK outweighs everything else! It's great to be paid to do what I find fun!

You may have noticed that I'm still contributing code to the DScaler team from time to time, if you've been watching the DScaler mailing list! By the way, you might find a few of my years-old AVSFORUM posts useful for your Kryton unit, such as this HTPC Pronto .ccf file that I made.

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Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
www.marky.com/hometheater
Lead Software Engineer for The TAW ROCK

[This message has been edited by Mark Rejhon (edited 07-13-2001).]

Jeffy:
Sorry, I misunderstood the website I read and your post about a show at in Glasgow.

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Alex

Eric, knock off the competitiveness please. If you want a winner go watch NASCAR - this is home theater where there is almost never a clear winner.

Marky, please let your product stand on its own. Did you really think your narrative responses would change the minds of those posting in this thread?

I'm asking you both to cool things off now.

Tom

Hi Tom,

I hope you won't close the thread. Actually as Eric/Mark pushed each other "to the limit" http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif , I am learning a few things. eg The leak of 6.75 test pattern of Rock + above.

As AVS posters hurled "missiles" TAW's way, it's only fair to let TAW defended its baby. And I love it when manufacturer is pushed to "talk". http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif Mark has done it always in a tasteful manner. Not like some other TAW person.

Regards,
Can

I don't own a Rock or any scaler simply because I'm an HTPC hobbyist who enjoys the tinkering.

But I also enjoy threads like these. I hope it doesn't get closed. As long it doesn't degenerate into name calling I think high spirited debate by knowledgeable individuals is some of the most interesting material on this board.

On slightly different note, Work Permit wrote Possibly not for the next release, but there is no reason to believe the Rock has reached it's deinterlacing limit, even for current hardware. Software algorithms continue to evolve and as improvements are released in DScaler or other places there is no reason to believe the Rock won't also benefit. After all, real-time HTPC deinterlacing has only been feasible for a year or two. I think we are all only starting to find out what works when optimized for current processors.

- Tom (an occasional DScaler guy)



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Getting started:
HTPC FAQ , DScaler , Xcel's Links , and
What's Wrong with Copy Protection .

Mark, I have no idea what you are talking about.

"Problems with this 6.75 Mhz pattern also affects aliasing artifacts on movie DVD's"

There are NO problems with the 6.75 pattern on the NR or the 3000 and I specifically told you to see my images and TK Chans images. I don't agree with your statement that the "6.75 pattern affects aliasing artifacts". The reason being that dvd's are not even capable of that resolution. This isn't even the point. I don't even want to go there, let's just say on this we disagree. However, I just can't comprehend how you can rant about the 6.75 test patch on the Faroudja being poor when in fact it is perfect. Anyone reading this thread please see the photos for yourselves. Here is my link:

http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/ericb...2bScaler%2bPho tos%26.src=ph%26.view=t


Here is TK CHANS link:

http://ryoko.telhope.com/~tkchan/test/6.75MHz.jpg

It's like me saying I don't like the rock because it's front panel is pink. What the hell am I saying, look at the front panel it's not pink it's black. I say it's pink and I don't like it. I am at a loss for words, look at the photos and see if the 6.75 pattern looks worse than the Rocks. NEXT.

"72 Hz ROCK on a CRT projector"

Once again, you know the Faroudja does not do 72hz and big gun CRT's require higher scaling rates than are available on the NR series. Do your apples to apples test with the ROCK and the Faroudja 3000/5000. You have yet to reply to my request for a single improvement the rock has over the cheapest Faroudja NR. The 6.75 pattern is perfect and the NR cannot do 72hz or 1024 rates. The fact that you, as a senior software guy, cannot even interpret my question properly, let alone defend your product with a single area where your Rock shines over the NR, leaves me with another reason not to buy a ROCK. Which is the reason this thread started in the first place. Please add: Poor techical department and Poor customer service to my list.

[This message has been edited by ericbee (edited 07-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by ericbee (edited 07-13-2001).]