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Poor man's SDI - Page 2  

post #31 of 744
6/25/01 at 5:50pm
I have a Pioneer DV-07 300-disc DVD changer which I'd be willing to let one of you EE wizards try and upgrade, if someone can confirm it is a viable candidate...

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post #32 of 744
6/25/01 at 6:07pm
It may be a candidate but it probably has the red chroma bug. If that doesn't bother you I'd get the service manual and see if it can be modified.

Tom
post #33 of 744
6/26/01 at 3:17am
tommyboy2:
i haven't seen a wiring diagram for the PMDT, but I would assume that the D0-D7 and clock plus power ans ground could be accessed directly from the edge connectors of a simple plug-n board with the sdi interface on it? is it that easy?
Also, i noted that you hinted that the new releases of the dune would be capable of two sdi inputs. Will the older releases be capable as well?

thanks.
jlm
post #34 of 744
6/26/01 at 8:04am
I have a modded Pioner DV-737 (the DVD MAX player). Yes, it has the chroma bug; for some reason, it's not bothering me like I've seen on previous setups. Only if I carefully look for it on certain scenes can I see the jagged borders the chroma bug creates. The picture is so pristine otherwise that one is easily distracted away from the bug. Personally, I think the bug is overrated and will concentrate my own modification efforts on satellite receivers. So if you want to mod Pioneer players, you will still be rewarded with a great picture.

After researching this a bit, I believe I've uncovered the main issue with doing the mod: many video components use the ITU601 (or BT.601 or CCIR601) standard for the parallel YUV bus. This standard, while similar to ITU656, does not implement the full SAV/EAV embedded signals that the ITU656 spec. is expecting. I am searching for a satellite receiver that uses the ITU656 parallel bus so the mod can be easily done. This is proving to be difficult.

I have confirmed with Uwe at Vigatec that the deserialized video from the SDI receiver chip must conform to the ITU656 spec.

The best way to tell if you have a good modification candidate is to look for the NTSC/PAL encoder I.C. (usually made by Analog Devices, Conexant, Sony, etc.) and get the datasheet on it. If it accepts _only_ ITU656, you're in luck. If it accepts both ITU656 and ITU601, then you will need to determine which parallel bus scheme is being used. The easy way to tell is to look for pins on the I.C. which select which mode the part is in. The hard way is to actually look for the embedded SAV/EAV signals with a logic analyzer (or just hook up the serializer and pray for video to come out the other end). In any event, you will also encounter some encoders which only accept ITU601, in which case you should either search for another candidate or build a programmable logic device like Bob Cobler is doing to convert '601 to '656.

-Dylan


P.S.: If anyone would like to help me, I have a lead on DSS receivers. A reputable magazine showed a home theater install which had a Sony SAT-A55 receiver modded for SDI. If anyone has a SAT-A50 or 55 and a screw driver, I'd love to know which NTSC enocder is being used. So far, in looking at sat. receivers, I've only found ITU601 implementations.
post #35 of 744
6/26/01 at 8:44am
Well I'm definitely interested in an SDI mod for the Dish 6000. At least with the Dish Network, everything is the same, while Direct TV has many different manufacturers. For us Dish 6000 owners, I hope we can get this done... I imagine there are a lot of Dish 6000 owners out there.

Thank-you all for your efforts. I know I'll be waiting anxiously for the Dune version with 2 SDI inputs.

BTW, apparently Theta SDI outputs are not compatable with Vigatec, from what I have heard... I wonder why?

Too bad the new Panasonic RP91 DVD player can't be modified, or can it? (combined chip with no access?)



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Pictures: The Worm Hole Theater featuring the Black Hole Subs and Death Star Platform
post #36 of 744
6/26/01 at 10:58am
Am I correct in assuming that the SDI efforts are aimed at improvement in a good (relatively uncompressed) channel? It would seem that SDI output of a heavily compressed channel would just give a clearer picture of ugly compression artifacts.

Thanks

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Noah
post #37 of 744
6/26/01 at 3:04pm
Jay L,
If you add SDI it's like getting 'digital SDTV'. So an HDTV channel will only be viewable as 480i through an SDI connection.

damon,
If the Dish6000 spec sheet lists "CCIR601", then it will be more difficult to get SDI to work, i.e. a conversion to ITU-656 will be needed.

Noah,
SDI allows you to bypass many of the ugly things that happen when digital YUV video is converted to analog and NTSC encoded. I've watched a lot of DVD content through SDI into a Vigatec. The color palette is much richer than NTSC. It would still be worthwhile to do this on a sat. receiver.

-Dylan
post #38 of 744
6/26/01 at 4:04pm
Thread Starter 
Health Nut:

There seems to be a lot of interest in mod'ing the 6000 and the TIVO. If you can shoot an (inside) hi-rez photo of the 6000, I will see how it looks. I could also do a similar look-see at the TIVO if somebody wants to get me a picture of that.

Send the photos to: cobler@jps.net
post #39 of 744
6/26/01 at 4:39pm
Why can't we simply pass the native digital signal via the SDI connection, whatever it may be? Why can't we pass HBO HDTV, OTA HDTV (Nature channel http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif), etc... through the SDI connection?

Robert,

I'm still waiting for my Dish 6000 to arrive... But in any case, there is nobody doing mods for the 6000 yet it seems. I don't think I can handle any DIY project at this time because I start a new job this coming monday, in addition to needing to study a little for a 2 day long USMLE step 3 exam. Further, I'd still need a Vigatec capable of 2 SDI inputs as well as UWE completing the card for a Meridian 800 SDI output. And I don't think I'll be getting the Meridian 800 until October anyway. Uwe hasn't mentioned a timeline for having the Meridian 800 SDI card available. I sure hope all this works out because my plan is to have a Dish 6000 SDI output, a Meridian 800 with Vigatec SDI card, and a DUNE with 2 SDI inputs. Sounds very tasty if you ask me! I just hope everything just mentioned comes to fruition.

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Pictures: The Worm Hole Theater featuring the Black Hole Subs and Death Star Platform

[This message has been edited by Health Nut (edited 06-26-2001).]
post #40 of 744
6/26/01 at 4:41pm
Heck with Health Nut and his 6000!! How about a real HDTV Sat. receiver, the DTC100?!? I can have a digital picture of its guts to you in minutes!

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-Mark
***** Digital Vortex *****
The Digital Electronic Site
www.digitalvortex.com
post #41 of 744
6/26/01 at 4:44pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Knight:
Heck with Health Nut and his 6000!! How about a real HDTV Sat. receiver, the DTC100?!? I can have a digital picture of its guts to you in minutes!

Make it so! I've been afraid to take mine apart...or too lazy. Whatever, post away! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Tom
post #42 of 744
6/26/01 at 4:47pm
Jeeze! give me a second to edit my post! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif I edit my post and two more responses pop in!

Time to go watch "Save the Last Dance" with the girlfriend... I'm getting yelled at for being on the computer.

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Pictures: The Worm Hole Theater featuring the Black Hole Subs and Death Star Platform

[This message has been edited by Health Nut (edited 06-26-2001).]
post #43 of 744
6/26/01 at 4:50pm
So were do I post the picture? Do I put it up on my site or should I mail it to someone or what? I have no problem taking mine apart and have my digital camera right next to me so let me know as it really would only take a second or two and also let me know if there is something I should be looking for whilst I have it apart as then I could take a cloe up shot of that part.

------------------
-Mark
***** Digital Vortex *****
The Digital Electronic Site
www.digitalvortex.com
post #44 of 744
6/26/01 at 4:51pm
.................Should read "close up shot" ^

http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
-Mark
***** Digital Vortex *****
The Digital Electronic Site
www.digitalvortex.com
post #45 of 744
6/26/01 at 5:43pm
1) Anyone have any idea if this would work with digital cable boxes?

2) Anyone know if SDI input cards exist for PC's, say for possible DScaler use?

- Tom

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Getting started:
HTPC FAQ , DScaler , Xcel's Links , and
What's Wrong with Copy Protection .
post #46 of 744
6/26/01 at 6:44pm
Thread Starter 
Photos of SDI candidates:

I would like to see a hi-rez photo of the main PCB in the area of the S-video connectors. Frame the picture so the rear of the unit is at the top and the S-Video connector is centered. Include about an 8 X 8 inch area of the PCB.


Re Hi-def: We are only addressing SD at this point. The main reason is SD is what needs the processing the most (e.g., DVD). Chips for HD serializing are not available yet.
post #47 of 744
6/26/01 at 6:56pm
Mark send it to me and Ill host it. Ill then send you a link
so you can add it to your post.

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Alan Gouger
Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com
post #48 of 744
6/26/01 at 7:12pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Robert Cobler:

Re Hi-def: We are only addressing SD at this point. The main reason is SD is what needs the processing the most (e.g., DVD). Chips for HD serializing are not available yet.
Actually I think Gennum's HD-Linx will do the trick. The problem is the current crop of Vigatec's cannot handle a 1.485GB/S SDI input!

Tom
post #49 of 744
6/26/01 at 8:27pm
I looked inside the RCA DTC100 HD receiver for DTV. It uses a Phillips SAA7120 encoder which conforms to CCIR656 according to the datasheet. I cant gaurantee it will work. But, I am going to try the mod in conjunction with the vigatec. If anyone else has tried this, please let me know if it works. Also, I was wondering if there is a way to get the 1.5G HD out. However, Im not sure if the vigatec is capable of accepting it.
post #50 of 744
6/26/01 at 8:34pm
Thread Starter 
Tom: Although Gennum may have an HD chip, I would caution people about jumping to HD. It's an entirely different game when working at 1.5GB. SD from satellite and DVD is what needs addressing now, i.e., further processing.

I expect to have my SAV/EAV adder running within a couple of weeks. Hopefully this addition to the EVK board will allow a lot more units to be modified. I need it for my own satellite receiver.

I said in an earlier post I would be happy to look at the layout of a 6000 and a TIVO if somebody wants to send me photos as described previously (cobler@jps.net)
post #51 of 744
6/26/01 at 9:41pm
I agree with Mr. Cobler on the HD-SDI issue. Let's keep the thread on standard SDI. Besides, if you can afford to schlep around HD-SDI signals in your home theater, you don't need to be messing with DIY mods to save a few bucks.

lizard32,
The DTC-100 strikes again! The SAA7120 encoder is CCIR656-only. This is exactly what we're looking for. It specifically mentions needing SAV and EAV to operate. There are no HSYNC and VSYNC inputs (a tell-tale sign that CCIR601 is employed).
Thanks for the very promising lead. I have a DTC-100 and will look into the viability of doing a mod. I am still waiting on parts.

-Dylan
post #52 of 744
6/26/01 at 9:49pm
such a thing as a SDI Switch??????


If you SDI mod a HD rec then you are only getting the SD output on SDI, yes?????????
post #53 of 744
6/26/01 at 9:49pm
Does'nt this spec. from the Dish 6000 list

"CCIR 601 or Square Pixel operation"

mean that no sav/eav will be present?
post #54 of 744
6/27/01 at 2:51am
Quote:
Originally posted by dahester:
I agree with Mr. Cobler on the HD-SDI issue. Let's keep the thread on standard SDI. Besides, if you can afford to schlep around HD-SDI signals in your home theater, you don't need to be messing with DIY mods to save a few bucks.

lizard32,
The DTC-100 strikes again! The SAA7120 encoder is CCIR656-only. This is exactly what we're looking for. It specifically mentions needing SAV and EAV to operate. There are no HSYNC and VSYNC inputs (a tell-tale sign that CCIR601 is employed).
Thanks for the very promising lead. I have a DTC-100 and will look into the viability of doing a mod. I am still waiting on parts.

-Dylan
Yea! Great news Dylan. Now I'll have to pop the cover on mine.

BTW - I agree with the priorities - I was just pointing out that parts do exist but it matters not since the Viga couldn't handle it anyway.

BTW2 - Uwe if you are reading this, you better have that dual-input SDI PCB done soon! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by tommyboy2 (edited 06-27-2001).]
post #55 of 744
6/27/01 at 5:24am
So then we take the RGBHV output of the Dish 6000, HD-15 I believe, and connect it to the HD-15 input on the Vigatec for HBO HDTV, 720p/1080i...

Then when watching SDTV (480i) on the Dish 6000, we simply switch the input choice to the SDI connection?

Chris

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Pictures: The Worm Hole Theater featuring the Black Hole Subs and Death Star Platform
post #56 of 744
6/27/01 at 6:33am
Ok, Alan I sent you 2 Hi-Rez images. Should be in you In-Box. Very large, sorry but they are Hi-Rez! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

After Alan gets them posted if any other pictures are needed just let me know as I left the cover off just incase.

------------------
-Mark
***** Digital Vortex *****
The Digital Electronic Site
www.digitalvortex.com
post #57 of 744
6/27/01 at 11:27am
Quote:
2) Anyone know if SDI input cards exist for PC's, say for possible DScaler use?
Tom,

I've been wondering the same thing. So far in my search, I've found Gordon-Cross' VideoPump , Matrox SDI , Osprey-500 . They are all over $2000, though. I wonder if we could convince Key Digital to build a low-cost SDI capture card.
post #58 of 744
6/27/01 at 11:27am
Tom,
There is a card with SDI, can't find the link but AJA video makes one. I think they must be working on their site.
post #59 of 744
6/27/01 at 2:10pm
Quote:
There is a card with SDI, can't find the link but AJA video makes one.
I spoke with someone in sales there. Their card is $1600. I have also spoken to Osprey Video, and they are looking into volume pricing of their card as well as the need regarding an SDK. (AJA has a free SDK for their card btw). I'm going to cross-post this into the HTPC forum to judge potential interest.
post #60 of 744
6/28/01 at 9:28pm
I am in the process of doing a mini shoot-out with my RCA DTC-100, against the Sony SAT HD-100 and the new Panasonic TUHDS20 into a FR NR 768P. I am contemplating a new vigatec with the SDI. So far the Sony interface and ease of use wins hands down, but I am willing to sacrifice these for an eaiser time putting in an SDI mod. so I'm waiting for further postings here. I could take some digital photos of these units if anyone would like to see them.
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