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Poor man's SDI - Page 3  

post #61 of 744
Well... being one of the first people to bring the concept of SDI to this forum its amazing to see so many people aware of how to do SDI. Right down to chip level.

Ive been doing SDI out from DSS, DVD and many digital devices for 4 years. However I have no time to drop down to chip level, but im real tempted by this post.

I deal with devices that cost 5 figures that take analog HD component and spit out HD-SDI. It sure puts a few chips and a little solder into perspective cost wise. $30 bucks in chips + 1hr of work with a scope. Hmmmm ..

I send my customers stuff over to Cinematrix. These guys are serious pros. They make a kewl board, i don't know what it costs by itself. The next generation board has many new toys on it..


Many things come to mind reading this thread.

A few general notes.

SDI out does still depend on the MPEG decoder chip on the DVD/DSS device. I have three of the same DVD players at our place that span about a year of production. They are based on three different models of transports. The differences between them are the MPEG decoders on 2 of them and the serializer on the third. All have SDI out of course. I plop these on top of each other, put in DTS DVD #4 and cue up the eagles clip. The players are connected to a Teranex and then a Vision 1 X. The three players all look different. YES its a all digital signal chain, however the MPEG encoded bits on the DVD need to be decoded and then turned into parrallel digital video then serialized and converted to 270Mbits / sec. This process varies for different chip combo's.

Many people forget that SDI doesn't extract the "exact" bits from the disc. There are still things in the way that muck up the picture.

Computers & SDI..Yes MANY MANY people make SDI out cards. This is a standard card for doing any type of post production work in video. Keep in mind SDI is 270Mb/sec, this is a SERIOUS bit rate to support via PC bus.

HD-SDI. Sencore makes 2 interesting products. They make a HD-SDI / SDI out HDTV ATSC Tuner. They also have a new product which im still confuzed about. Its a sat reciever that can pull in Echostar and spits out HD-SDI. Well it might be able to do that. Its a test equipment reciever that will work on Echostar !. Hmm it doesn't appear to have a access card yet it might recieve and display pictures ?, hmmmmmm... Both these devices will output SDI when you switch to a 480P channel. Both spit out digital AES/EBU digital audio.

Man, you guys make me wanna go DIY inside various boxes I got laying around. Just for fun really. Mostly i want to reclock and dejitter the video bus.

Im really impressed by the members in AVS. Chip level design of serializers. Impressive.

Now you guys ARE including macrovision in your SDI out right http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
post #62 of 744
HD-SDI, you should forget about this immediately for HT.
I understand that all are getting very excited about a pure digital link and SDI is a practical cheap solution for
HT gear. Not so HD-SDI, the components are quite expensive and there is no real application for it besides broacast usage. As long there is no HD-DVD standard.......
Putting HD-SDI in a satellite receiver or D-VHS tape might theoretically be possible but where are the
HD-SDI displays ?
I have seen a big !! DVD-player at Infocomm with an ouput labelled HD-SDI. That is what I call
guerilla marketing. That would require a chip inside that upconverts 480p to 1080i and I still miss the sense changing a native progressive source back into an interlaced format.
DVI is the way to go and that is what you will see soon.
I hope that there are many SDI output DVD players soon.
Anyway I will test the first production sample of the PMDT-SDI card Tuesday and then if posititve announce the general availability.

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make it so
spatz
post #63 of 744
Quote:
Mostly i want to reclock and dejitter the video bus.
I asked about this previously as I suspected this may be an issue. I imagine boards with a short internal connection, ala CINEMATRIX, do not suffer from this potential problem.

Quote:
Now you guys ARE including macrovision in your SDI out right.
And we are all a bunch of no good pirates, correct? How rediculous! To think of all the money I have supported Hollywood with by purchasing 650 DVDs! And then to have Macrovision shoved up my arse! I think we all know what Macrovision can do... go take a flying leap off a cliff for their dumb, useless, 'copyprotection'. Jerks!

Quote:
Putting HD-SDI in a satellite receiver or D-VHS tape might theoretically be possible but where are the
HD-SDI displays ?
I don't understand. There are 1080i/720p HD broadcasts OTA and things like Showtime HBO... As long as there are displays capable of 720p or greater, which there are plenty, why would this not be beneficial? You bypass the D/A-A/D step on the Vigatec I imagine, just as you would a DVD player...? Any idea when the Meridian 800 SDI card will be ready?

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Pictures: The Worm Hole Theater featuring the Black Hole Subs and Death Star Platform
post #64 of 744
digesting these threads with respect to vigatech/PMDT/DTC-100 owners:

the vigatech scaler will accept a single SDI input, (with an optional input board installed);
vigatech is about to relase an SDI output board which will plug into the PMDT;
mods are available to convert the DTC-100 to give an SDI output for sdtv.

and here is the final tidbit: vigatech is going to provide a scaler upgrade that will provide two SDI inputs.

It looks like I'm going to have some extra component and S-video cables!

jlm
post #65 of 744
I was just bring attention to the fact that 'one-box' solutions, as in audio processors, do not seem to suffer from Jitter, while outputting a digital to an outboard processor, whether it be an audio preamp processor, or video scaler, seems to introduce jitter. Anyone feel free to expand upon that. The point being that 'one box' solutions with internal digital connections seem to have negligible jitter. Again, feel free to expand upon that. Further it eliminates the need for copyprotection. This was one of the reasons I was hoping Meridian would just make a combined 800 and 861 unit that removed the need for copyprotection, reduced jitter, and removed the redundancy (duplication of the same circuitry) between the two units. This would still have the same modularity as the current 800/861.

However, with a quality, affordable scaler like the Vigatec, I'm very happy to see that an SDI card is being developed by Vigatec for the Meridian 800 for use with the Vigatec scaler. I'm sure the results will be incredible and probably equal in picture quality to the SDI encrypted card available from Snell and Wilcox for the Meridian 800(and certainly much more affordable). I'm not sure if Snell and Wilcox re-clocks/de-jitters the SDI output/input--funny thing is they probably don't, but charge you as they did http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

I just brought up the Cinematrix because of its internal digital connection. The Genesis chip is of course vastly inferior to the DVDO, which is inferior to the Faroudja. For $1500, a Sony 7700 with a Cinematrix and 5 BNC connectors on the back, providing a very nice image is still a great bang for the buck, no doubt one of the best. A PSM-2, Cinematrix 2 with a Faroudja de-interlacing chip, which also hides the chroma bug, would make for a powerful one box solution.

The only problem is that the only choice from MSB and other places in Europe seems to be a SONY DVD player. They were supposed to be able to install the Cinematrix in a variety of DVD players, but I've only seen it done with the Sony DVD players. Would I get a Cinematrix 2 (PSM-2) if they used a Faroudja deinterlacing chip? Possibly. I would like to see a PSM-2 come to fruition and work with a variety of players, but I don't know how likely this is to occur. I guess one of the growing problems is the fact that more and more DVD players are using the integrated MPEG decoder/encoder which has no way to 'tap' the SDI output of the decoder. In any case, a PSM-2 would be a huge band for the buck, have negligible jitter, and if the Faroudja deinterlacing chip was used, would be an incredible option.

I'm sold on DVD-Audio, and because I already have a Meridian 861, I've decided to get the Meridian 800 now that Vigatec is coming out with the SDI output card. A dual SDI Dune Vigtec scaler should take care of everything for me. And as mentioned above, say goodbye to analog component cables forever!

Quote:
If the Dish6000 spec sheet lists "CCIR601", then it will be more difficult to get SDI to work, i.e. a conversion to ITU-656 will be needed
So, is this confirmed?


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Pictures: The Worm Hole Theater featuring the Black Hole Subs and Death Star Platform

[This message has been edited by Health Nut (edited 06-30-2001).]
post #66 of 744
Chris Stevens wrote
Quote:
Computers & SDI..Yes MANY MANY people make SDI out cards. This is a standard card for doing any type of post production work in video. Keep in mind SDI is 270Mb/sec, this is a SERIOUS bit rate to support via PC bus.
Actually that worries me a bit. Most HTPC buses can handle that right now, and it's enough for 480i but not for 480p.

DScaler for instance outputs 720x480p @ 60 fps (possibly scaled higher) in a 2 byte YUY2 format. That's about 320 Mb/sec. But it only inputs about half that.

- Tom

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Getting started:
HTPC FAQ , DScaler , Xcel's Links , and
What's Wrong with Copy Protection .
post #67 of 744
Thanks for dropping by Chris. Always informative.

About Cinematrix: Do you have to have the PSM-1 option to get an SDI output mod? Not at all very cost effective if this is the case.

All that I found at the site was reference to a DVI output option , & I know you are quite aware of the difference.
http://www.cinematrix.de/psm1/psmframe.html

"This upgrade offers digital vieo output adhering standard DVI specifications. The user can connect the DVD output directly to existing DVI inputs on digital displays."

I also thought that the Genesis video chip had some inherent problems , but this may be only at HDTV levels.

The Electrograph SDI output DVD player is apparently also using the genesis.

What available DTC-100 mods are JLM referring to?

The AJA site is back up. Here is the link to the SDI input card. What is the SDI output for? http://www.aja.com/AJASDNTV.htm

Thanks, Mark



[This message has been edited by damon (edited 06-30-2001).]
post #68 of 744
Quote:
Originally posted by Health Nut:

The only problem is that the only choice from MSB and other places in Europe seems to be a SONY DVD player. They were supposed to be able to install the Cinematrix in a variety of DVD players, but I've only seen it done with the Sony DVD players.
For the moment, we install PSM1 in Pioneer DV717 (same as DV09 Elite), Toshiba SD500 (Dual tray, DVD-A), Sony DVPS335 (DVPS300 I think). We are working on Pioneer DV737, Denon 2800 and next generation Philips (based on STi 5508 Chips).

Quote:

A dual SDI Dune Vigtec scaler should take care of everything for me. And as mentioned above, say goodbye to analog component cables forever!
Yes, this is the solution ! SDI is the best system for a scaled picture. We are now working on implementing SDI in european sat receivers, more DVD players (affordables) and DVR/DVHS.


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____________________________________________________________ _______
Booster Corporation
Multiregion solutions & DVD enhancements

http://boostercorp.com
12-14, rue des Mimosas , F-06400 Cannes
post #69 of 744
"...vigatech is going to provide a scaler upgrade that will provide two SDI inputs"

Make that three (3) SDI inputs now! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif Uwe figures if he is going to make a new daughter board for dual input, he may as well just make it 3 inputs since he has 3 composite BNC inputs on the back anyway. BTW - each of the three inputs can still be used as composite inputs as well.

Tom
post #70 of 744
tommyboy:
great news, but out of curiosity, what would be feeding the third sdi input, after dvd and sat/sd?

by the way, any news on release time for the firmware updates providing plasma native rates?

jlm
post #71 of 744
Thread Starter 
Re SDI input boards for PC's:

I am not personally chasing SDI input for PC's, however here is a possible source: www.linsys.ca

This is a small Canadian company that makes several PC modules including a board for ASI signals. ASI is VERY similar to SDI. I suggest people searching for PC SDI contact them. Their pricing is very reasonable. Good luck!
post #72 of 744
I am clearly not understanding what the genesis chip that cinematrix employs has to do with getting a SDI output? Can someone clear this up? Does Cinematrix offer an SDI mod without also paying for a chip which upconverts & outputs in analog?
post #73 of 744
So do we have a procedure and parts list for the addition of SDI to a Panasonic based DVD and the DiSH 6000 IRD?

Currently I have a EAD TheaterVision P and hooked up to a native 480P display device it is jaw dropping. When my Dune finally arrives I would like to have the best quality signal to scale fed to the unit. If I could somehow add SDI to the DiSH 6000 SD output... that would be great.
post #74 of 744
But it is already closed?

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-Mark
***** Digital Vortex *****
The Digital Electronic Site
www.digitalvortex.com
post #75 of 744
Try this...
http://www.ubid.com/actn/opn/getpage...tionId=5115880

...then if that closes go back and search for it again as they will keep opening new auctions until they run out.

Tom
post #76 of 744
Can anybody recommend a good soldering kit and solderless breadboard for these ICs that would be good for this type of very minute work? I hope to do some testing of various ICs...

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Dan

[This message has been edited by dschmelzer (edited 07-04-2001).]
post #77 of 744
The Denon DVD3300 is up on UBID for $429 at http://www.ubid.com/actn/opn/getpage...tionId=5115878

As mentioned in a separate post, this is the player Alan and I have had modified to output SDI. The price is WELL below dealer cost.

Tom
post #78 of 744
So does the Denon DVD3300 have the SAV and EAV signals in the bitstream? In other words, can I just buy the Denon and the EVK board and be good to go?

Thanks,

------------------
Jay

"Can I please just watch this the way it is supposed to be seen?"
post #79 of 744
Quote:
Originally posted by J_Nemeth:
So does the Denon DVD3300 have the SAV and EAV signals in the bitstream? In other words, can I just buy the Denon and the EVK board and be good to go?

Thanks,

Yes.
post #80 of 744
Tommyboy,

Any chance you can pop the lid on your Denon and post a few pictures?

Thanks in advance, Peter
post #81 of 744
I would also like to see an internal photo and a procedure for the SDI addition.

Is the 3300 based on the Panasonic 61?
post #82 of 744
I tried to order the EVK board today, all the internet sites said "out of stock". I called Pioneer Electronics (not the dvd people) and they said it was on a 22 week lead time for delivery. Anyone have any ideas for a faster source? 5 months is a long time. I hope these things don't turn into another DISH HD Modulator fiasco.


------------------
Jay

"Can I please just watch this the way it is supposed to be seen?"
post #83 of 744
No promises, but I can try and take some pics sometime. Its a bit of a pain because the MPEG decoder PCB is shielded and the data leads are soldered to the bottom of the PCB. This means I'd have to take it apart just to get some pics.

As for the EVK SDI eval board, I'm having trouble getting it as well. I ordered from AVNET and they told me it would be at least 14 weeks. Then when I sniveled about the long lead time they abruptly cancelled my order!

Tom
post #84 of 744
Tom,

I ordered a Denon 3300 betting we will be able get the SDI board. No I'm getting scared that it will be tough to get my hands on. Does the modified unit you have use this same eval board, or can we get a different solution, possibly something from Vigitec?

Greg
post #85 of 744
Thread Starter 
More detailMs on the National SDI board:

Several people have asked to see the National SD-020EVK board. This is the $100 item containing everything needed to implement SDI in a DVD player, satellite receiver, etc., providing the host device can provide CCIR 656 digital video w/27 MHz clock to feed the board. This is the case in many devices. If only CCIR 601 video is available, a suitable programmed logic device (the socketed chip) must be inserted in the data path to add the SAV and EAV signals. Some SDI candidates utilize a combined MPEG decoder/analog encoder chip. SDI is not possible in such cases.

The board shown is attached to the rear of a Hughes "Platinum" satellite receiver using the mounting threads of the 2 BNC connectors on the board. The ribbon cable is fanned out to individual wires at the connection point. These wires are most easily attached to 1/8 watt 75 ohm resistors soldered to the data input pins of the encoder chip. This is easier than soldering directly to the IC pins and the resistors serve to terminate the data bus.

I should stress once again that this modification is best accomplished by a skilled technician with experience working with small surface mount devices. If you are determined to do this yourself, practice on something else first.

http://home.earthlink.net/~rogercc/_uimages/evk-5d.jpg



[This message has been edited by Robert Cobler (edited 07-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Robert Cobler (edited 08-06-2001).]
post #86 of 744
post #87 of 744
What is the EDH that this board does?


SDO021EVK link:
http://www.national.com/appinfo/inte...01,489,00.html



[This message has been edited by damon (edited 07-07-2001).]
post #88 of 744
Thread Starter 
damon:

Specifically I don't know what EDH is, however it can be disabled. I wouldn't worry about it.
post #89 of 744
Thread Starter 
See Damon's post;

Looks like the National SD021-5EVK board is just an enhanced version of the SD020-EVK board. It may be easier to find. Price is still $100.
post #90 of 744
TommyBoy,

I have searched but cannot find any reviews of the performance improvements you and Alan have noticed with the
your modded DVD player in the chain. Thanks, Mark
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