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Fabric Frames - Page 28

post #811 of 897
For those of you that have done it- would you recommend pre built frames or make them yourself ??

What's the difference in cost?

What is the difference in time ?

Would you do it different the second time ?
post #812 of 897
To do what I did (and most folks in this thread) you can't do with prefabricated panels, because the panels have to be sized exactly according to a layout based on the dimensions of the room (and columns, doors, ceiling height, working around risers and stage, etc. Plus with prefab you have limited choices on depth, mounting, and most of all fabrics.

For the "hang on the wall" type panels, it makes more sense to compare buying vs. building them yourself. I'd still do it myself though, because (1) I'm a cheap bastard, (2) I like woodworking, and (3) I want things "just so" in terms of fabrics and specific sizing.

It took me 2-3 weeks of a few hours a night on weekdays and at least a half day on weekend days to build the frames, and another week maybe to cover them with fabric. So definitely time consuming.
post #813 of 897
Awesome reply. Thanks for advice makes perfect sense. I'm probably more like you
post #814 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

For those of you that have done it- would you recommend pre built frames or make them yourself ??

What's the difference in cost?

What is the difference in time ?

Would you do it different the second time ?

I spent maybe $2,000 on fabric and materials (plywood, batting, compressed fiberglass, staples, brads, glue, etc...) for the Fabric Frames. I have been told that to have the same thing done professionally would have been $15,000 to $20,000. That is a big difference.

Time wise, i built and installed all the fabric frames in a week and a half over Christmas vacation. Then there is the time to source and acquire all the materials. This happened over a period of 2 or 3 months while the theater was under construction. I would think a professional would take 2 to 3 weeks also to do the install.

I would build the frames again if I was building a theater. I would most likely mix it up with different size frames next time. Another thing I would look at is the plastic track systems, that are available now.
post #815 of 897
I wanted fabric on the walls to help hide the acoustic treatments, minimize light reflections, etc. I looked at building frames... even built a test frame (god what a pain) and that experience left me looking for other solutions...

Eventually decided on the fabricmate track system... and since I didn't want to staple these directly to the drywall (wasn't sold on how well that would hold and wanted something that would be easy to remove later) I ended up using the 1/2" fabricmate track stapled to 1" wide 1/2" thick plywood strips. The combined 1/2" plywood and 1/2" fabricmate track strips I then screwed to the wall (horizontal strips screwed to the studs, vertical strips using anchors or screwed to the studs depending on where they ended up) in the pattern I wanted and then rolled in the fabric (GOM 701). After rolling in the fabric in the first "panel" I was very comfortable with the install of the fabric (it really is quite easy) and the whole project took only a couple of days with excellent results (much better than I think I could have achieved with the frames solution). You can lay out the "panels" nearly any way you want (working within the restrictions of the width and length of the fabric you buy). I guess it cost me a bit more than the frames (~$500) would have but the amount of work involved was much less.
post #816 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfm View Post

I wanted fabric on the walls to help hide the acoustic treatments, minimize light reflections, etc. I looked at building frames... even built a test frame (god what a pain) and that experience left me looking for other solutions...

Eventually decided on the fabricmate track system... and since I didn't want to staple these directly to the drywall (wasn't sold on how well that would hold and wanted something that would be easy to remove later) I ended up using the 1/2" fabricmate track stapled to 1" wide 1/2" thick plywood strips. The combined 1/2" plywood and 1/2" fabricmate track strips I then screwed to the wall (horizontal strips screwed to the studs, vertical strips using anchors or screwed to the studs depending on where they ended up) in the pattern I wanted and then rolled in the fabric (GOM 701). After rolling in the fabric in the first "panel" I was very comfortable with the install of the fabric (it really is quite easy) and the whole project took only a couple of days with excellent results (much better than I think I could have achieved with the frames solution). You can lay out the "panels" nearly any way you want (working within the restrictions of the width and length of the fabric you buy). I guess it cost me a bit more than the frames (~$500) would have but the amount of work involved was much less.

Picture ???
post #817 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPowers View Post



I spent maybe $2,000 on fabric and materials (plywood, batting, compressed fiberglass, staples, brads, glue, etc...) for the Fabric Frames. I have been told that to have the same thing done professionally would have been $15,000 to $20,000. That is a big difference.

Time wise, i built and installed all the fabric frames in a week and a half over Christmas vacation. Then there is the time to source and acquire all the materials. This happened over a period of 2 or 3 months while the theater was under construction. I would think a professional would take 2 to 3 weeks also to do the install.

I would build the frames again if I was building a theater. I would most likely mix it up with different size frames next time. Another thing I would look at is the plastic track systems, that are available now.

Thank you for a really helpful and intelligent reply. What is the advantage/disavantage of the plasic track system ?
post #818 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Picture ???

A quick crappy picture of the front corner of our theater to give you an idea of what I did with the fabricmate track... My approach was definitely plain Jane... basically a simple two-tone 2 panel outline (black on the bottom about 3 ft high with brown on top) that runs the length of the back and side walls with the front false wall all black snuggled up to the Carada Masquerade screen. The panel below the screen is removable so that I can get to the speakers and subs. The front corners are at a 45 degree angle. With the track you can pretty much do anything but the smaller your "panels" are the more costly it will be (because more track will be needed). Even with the larger "panels" I used (largest being 18 feet by 5 feet) I was able to install the correspondingly large fabric piece by myself in rather short order.


post #819 of 897
Can you make different size depth frames with the track system?
post #820 of 897
I'm leaning towards making wooden frames myself. Thanks for the helpful info posted in this thread !
post #821 of 897
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Thank you for a really helpful and intelligent reply. What is the advantage/disavantage of the plasic track system ?

Depends on the person budget and skill set.

If you are a skilled woodworker and have the tools, then Fabric Frames have the advantage. The flip side is you need the confidence to build the fabric frames, and the tools.

Plastic tracks offer more opportunity to do curves and more completed designs. Plastic Tracks also do not require woodworking skills or as many tools. But will cast more.
post #822 of 897
Anyone ever use the Acoustimac prebuilt frames?
post #823 of 897
Depending on your complexity of frames it can be done very easily with minimal knowledge or something like a Fabricmate track might be a better option. For me the cost of the track was more than I wanted to spend and in hiding my windows I would have needed to build a frame for the track to go on anyway so....

I already needed a table saw and nail gun/compressor for the rest of my woodwork and I just used a speed square to line up the pieces and nailed them in.

One of the easier parts of my build IMO.
post #824 of 897
Thread Starter 
+ 1 on the speed square for making things easier...
Edited by GPowers - 5/22/13 at 1:59pm
post #825 of 897
Id guess a finish nail gun off an air compressor too ...
post #826 of 897
Yes, a pneumatic brad nailer and stapler is *almost* mandatory - I actually built my first 6-8 frames using a hammer and boxes of brad nails - way too slow, broke down and bought the brad nailer, and my next door neighbor gave me a spare compressor. biggrin.gif
post #827 of 897
My dad has a few brad nailers and I own a compressor. I've used it many times for other projects. smile.gif. Nice indeed.

It's too easy for some stuff. I always end up using twice as many nails as I should ... Lol
post #828 of 897
Wait til you start stapling fabric! I think I used somewhere north of 30,000 staples
post #829 of 897
Lol holycrap!
post #830 of 897
So last night I began wrapping the frames around my screen wall in FR701 (Black) ... horrible. Don't get me wrong, they turned out great; however I forgot how horrible FR701 is to work with. Difficult to cut, ravels, dulls razors quickly .. just not a user friendly product. Thankfully I'm only using it on my screen wall which is nearly complete.

My father started and ran a large(ish) upholstery business for 30+ yrs, so you would think I would have an advantage; however after making a mistake and having to pull stables out I remember why I hated working there ... biggrin.gif

Warning .. do not buy the cheap surebonder staple gun from amazon for ~$25. Its jammed no less than 20 times on 4 frames. I just ordered a good one to finish the room.
post #831 of 897
I used a rotary cutter and a straight edge and it worked well for me. Of course I didn't use GOM so you mileage may vary.
post #832 of 897
+1 on the rotary cutter.
post #833 of 897
I would love some help on the best way to build my fabric frames. I am planning to cover all of my walls in fabric frames and I have been researching intermittently how to do this. Well, now the time has come and I am still confounded. So here are a few specifics. (And there is a link to my build thread in my sig.)

-Room is 15x19x8.
-False wall with an AT screen and fabric frames covering false wall.
-Sound treatments will be 2'' thick.
-Surround speakers will be 3 15/16'' deep. I will have 4 of them. I am planning on going with in wall surrounds to maintain this relatively shallow profile.
-At this time my plan is to not do columns in my room and hide the speakers with deeper 4'' panels in those 4 locations.
-Therefore most of the room will need just over 2'' fabric frames to cover the 2'' of OC705 on the walls and 4 locations will have smaller panels deep enough to cover my 3 15/16'' surrounds.

Here is an idea of what I am going for.



The thicker panels in this room would be used to cover the surround speakers and would stick out approx 2'' further than the rest. I do plan to utilize sconces in those locations close to the surround speakers like in the picture.

I would like the panels to be removable to allow me to change the placement of my sound treatments during professional calibration. It seems there are lots of ways to do this but I need some help determining what is best for my application. I also have questions about what methods work best for the construction of the panels themselves.

I have some carpenters helping me with the fabric frames. I will be working with them during the whole process as well to speed things along.

So a few questions:

1. Can I assume that some type of "nailor" is necessary if I want them to be removable? This may disgruntle my help but it is what it is. They have bid the project as a whole so it is not by the hour.

2. I would like to hear what peoples experience is with different types of attachment related to ease of application, and absence of rattles. I will have a very capable JTR Orbit Shifter in use as a main sub not to mention balancing subs so this is very important.

a. Velcro. I am a little concerned with how well it adheres but I think the industrial stuff is up to the challenge. I am mostly concerned with how quiet it is when the walls start flexing due to the extreme LF energy. If all of the panels started to make even very tiny "velcro noises" it would be disastrous.

b. Speaker Grill ball and sockets. I read how Brad did his in his "Pimp my Garage" thread and it looks promising but might be a lot of extra work.

c. Friction fit. I am not sure if this would work at all. If any of the panels are anything less than straight I can see big problems.

d. Fabric Mate- this is more money so I would probably ask the carpenters to discount to rate to offset the cost. Otherwise it is just not worth it.

e. Screws? I am not sure if they could be hidden though.....

f. ? What other methods are out there ?

3. What is the best way to construct the frames to get the depth I need and to have enough strength to prevent the frames from bowing? I don't mind adding mid span supports if needed. I see many people here fastening several layers of mdf together and this seems like a tedious process. So why is that necessary? Somebody school me please. Is there a reason that 2x2's or even ripped down 2x4's cannot be used? Is it a cost thing? Do they bow out? Is it because it is difficult to find straight lumber?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Grant
Edited by jedimastergrant - 6/4/13 at 1:20pm
post #834 of 897
Thread Starter 
+1 on the pneumatic stapler & brad nailer. The pneumatic stapler is the only way to go when stretching the GOM fabric over the frame. It is hard enough trying to get the correct tension and not create ripples. Using a manual stapler would just be that much more difficult.

Plus you can get a pneumatic stapler & brad nailer for around 100 bucks each, not bad considering what you're saving making the Fabric Frames.
post #835 of 897

I agree with GPowers, the pneumatic stapler is necessary.  It is so much easier.  Keep in mind that on an average size room you may be using 20,000 + staples.  You won't want to do it any other way.

 

As far as attaching to to the wall, to get a good clean fit, I think a brad/pin in each corner is the best way to go.  I put a very small spot of glue in each corner and put a pin in to hold it while the glue dried.  Removing them should be pretty easy, yet they aren't going to just fall off.

post #836 of 897
For panels 2" thick, I probably wouldn't use ball/sockets, due to the extra added weight of the panels. However, you could do deeper furring with 1" thick panels and still use them. I'm quite happy with how they've worked for me, I have a pair of THT LPs as subs, no rattles from any of the panels (closet door is another story, I need to weatherstrip to keep it from going in and out against the jamb on LFE bursts - "Pulse" comes to mind). However, I only listen up to -10 really, so YMMV.

One other method to consider is french cleat, if you want the panels to be removable - with ball/sockets or industrial velcro at the bottom corners.
post #837 of 897
I am using industrial strength velcro to attach my panels. So far (with the two that I have up) it is holding really well. I wanted to be able to take mine down to repair them in the event that one gets damaged.
post #838 of 897
GP,

I am all over the pneumatic stapler thanks to you and this thread. I opened it up yesterday.





Thanks again for creating this thread!
post #839 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

I agree with GPowers, the pneumatic stapler is necessary.  It is so much easier.  Keep in mind that on an average size room you may be using 20,000 + staples.  You won't want to do it any other way.

As far as attaching to to the wall, to get a good clean fit, I think a brad/pin in each corner is the best way to go.  I put a very small spot of glue in each corner and put a pin in to hold it while the glue dried.  Removing them should be pretty easy, yet they aren't going to just fall off.

Nick,

Just so I understand do you mean putting a brad nail and a small amount of glue (liquid nails?) on each corner to make sure it sucks in to the wall. And then you evidently think that I would be able to fairly easily remove the panels and redo the brad nail and glue to put it back on. I actually never considered this but if I can remove the panels without breaking anything then putting them back on should not be that difficult and if it ensures a good fit this might be the way to go. It would be easier than dealing with the ball and socket and or velcro too.
post #840 of 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

For panels 2" thick, I probably wouldn't use ball/sockets, due to the extra added weight of the panels. However, you could do deeper furring with 1" thick panels and still use them. I'm quite happy with how they've worked for me, I have a pair of THT LPs as subs, no rattles from any of the panels (closet door is another story, I need to weatherstrip to keep it from going in and out against the jamb on LFE bursts - "Pulse" comes to mind). However, I only listen up to -10 really, so YMMV.

One other method to consider is french cleat, if you want the panels to be removable - with ball/sockets or industrial velcro at the bottom corners.

Brad,

I don't think it would be a problem making deeper furring so the ball and socket is still and option as far as I know. Good to hear that the method does not produce rattles for you even with the THT's.

Your method is very "clean" and would appear to be easily removable. It does however at first glance make me think it would take quite a bit of extra time. Maybe I am wrong. Any idea how much time we are talking about here?
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