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Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 46  

post #1351 of 2847
[quote=mark_1080p]I wish it were so ...

Check out the people in your neighborhood driving to the supermarket in a Yukon or Expedition. Is someone with the mentality to drive a Yukon going to pay a bit more for an energy saving TV ?
QUOTE]

Yukon is the disease, and Hybrid is the cure that many are now taking. Not all, just a fair amount of the populace who recognize that energy is going to become scarcer and far more expensive. There is a growing green product demand, but it has to be linked to superior performance qualities. That is why I stressed the superior image replication factor coupled with energy saving, and a marketing campaign to spell out the benefits. Their is still a window of opportunity. HDTV is still not dominating the developed world, and the vast majority of TV is still SD, and a lot of the US market will not be awakened to the need, until the analog telecasts are ended. No facts here, just my conjecture. Let us hope that we have not reached a point in history where we stop questing for breakthroughs. It would be sad if Roger Bannister had stopped because someone said to him, what's the point Mr. Bannister, isn't a four minute mile bloody well good enough.
post #1352 of 2847
Originally Posted by rogo
SED is a bit player even if everything goes right from here. Let's hope it's the Acura/Infiniti/BMW of flat-panel screens

Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity
So how long will it take before I can pick-up one of these puppies off the shelf from my local Wal-Mart, Sam's Club, BJs Wholesale Club, etc... :D
As soon as Acura churns out a rear wheel drive sedan. :D
post #1353 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland
None of the recent postings have provided me with any further facts, which would dissuade me from this wait and see strategy. I am still going to use CES 2007 as the lab report that I will incorporate into my purchase now or later decision.
I was using CES 2006 as my lab report and SED failed to show anything different. They had promised a production of 55" sets for August 2005, so CES 2006 was it for me and the promising SED. But alas, no such set appeared and now we learn late 2007! What? Give me a break.

Good luck with CES 2007, er 2008....whatever. It will be a long wait indeed.

My 1992 RCA 36" CRT SD set is long overdue for a replacement, and I am not going to wait much longer..... the well proven and reliable PDP, or LCD sets are the way to go for someone in my position that really does need to upgrade :D
So, I have decided at this point to go with the Pany 65" PDP. :cool:

For me I have waited and while the SED was promising and I was willling to give it a chance in 2005/06 to see if it actually panned out, to continue to wait for another 4-5 years to have price, reliability and availability in my ballpark, cannot be justified.
post #1354 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by torch
As soon as Acura churns out a rear wheel drive sedan. :D
Even better, the RL is AWD :D

Maybe SED will sell better (when it finally arrives) if it also adds AWD :eek: :p

The world's first all-weather traction display!!!!! :D
post #1355 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by klownloach
Well this is my first post but i judge and respect by what is said not by how many posts or how senior one is. I have long followed i-fire closely and have read this forum for a long time and have seen rogo take many shots at i-fire such as "borderline stock fraud" and even wondering if they truly have a pilot plant. I can assure all that they do have a pilot plant and are turning out "flawless" {thier words not mine} panels. They also plan on a public unvieling "well before thier upcoming AGM" which should be very soon, perhaps even this week in san diego.

Now i'm not saying they will be a hit in the stores, this tech like sed and many others is prone to failure but to make such judgements and statements without real knowledge of what is really going on is not worthy of respect. The chair of the BOD is very worthy of respect and owns millions of shares that he bought with his own cash.

So westaim corp. is a small canadian startup who was spun off from sherritt corp., a company with a long history in cuba, lots of reasons to slam them i guess.

I will let my eyes and wallet be the judge.
klownloach,

I live in the San Diego area, any disclosable further info on a i-fire demo?
post #1356 of 2847
I don't know if you guys are being serious or not, but I'd be surprised if many people use power consumption as a primary motivating factor for selection of a TV. And I own a hybrid too. :p

Maybe for industrial usage power consumption is more important when there are 50 TVs on 24/7, but for home use not so much.

I think the two big factors are going to be:

1) Image quality
2) Cost

It seems that most agree that image quality of the prototype SEDs was pretty damn great. Thus what it all comes down to is cost.

The differences in opinion here are what are people going to pay for somewhat better image quality and viewing angle etc? I'd pay a small to moderate premium. Others will not. More people at 55" will spend the premium, but I'm a 42" class customer and if they don't offer 42" SEDs then it's a moot point for me.

Also perhaps there's a 3rd factor: resolution. LCD offers the 2006 advantage of 42" 1080p becoming mainstream. So even if SEDs do come in a 42" size, if they can't offer 42" at 1080p they they've probably lost me as a customer there too, especially if SED costs more.

However, all of this is just conjecture at this point. What I really want to see is what late 2006 and CeBit 2007 brings.
post #1357 of 2847
Like the rest of you guys I am disappointed to hear SED is in trouble and/or being delayed. Guess I need to start saving up for one of those Panasonic 1080p plasmas - hope they make a 50 incher I can afford. Now, having said that, I just wish posters here were as passionate about improving the sorry state of broadcast TV, including the miserable quality of most SD sources and the 4:3 aspect, as they are about splitting hairs over quality of the latest/greatest displays, which will still be showing the same old crapola unless the FCC grows a pair and starts mandating higher broadcast standards for digital TV. Yeah I know all about HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVDs, but I think most of us use our TVs to watch broadcast shows far more than we do DVDs.
post #1358 of 2847
I care about power consumption. That is why I haven't looked much at plasma. That along with burn-in, phospor deterioration, price, weight.

If SED or OLED doesn't pan out, it will probably have to be an LCD panel on a VESA arm for the bedroom.
post #1359 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonypaul
klownloach,

I live in the San Diego area, any disclosable further info on a i-fire demo?
Don't know about a public demo, it is overdue IMO, Don Carkner, VP product planning is presenting "TDEL in pilot production" session 9, oleds and emerging techs, day two, 3:25pm

I tried to post a link but got a "Your post contains one or more URLs or image calls, please remove them before submitting your message again. To prevent the abuse of spam, we have set this restriction in place untill after you make 5 posts"
post #1360 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81
I care about power consumption. That is why I haven't looked much at plasma. That along with burn-in, phospor deterioration, price, weight.

If SED or OLED doesn't pan out, it will probably have to be an LCD panel on a VESA arm for the bedroom.
How much do you care about power consumption?

If everything else was equal on a 55 incher, but the higher power unit was $500 less, which would you buy?

Despite my hybrid-owningness, I'd buy the higher power unit no question.
post #1361 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy
How much do you care about power consumption?

If everything else was equal on a 55 incher, but the higher power unit was $500 less, which would you buy?

Despite my hybrid-owningness, I'd buy the higher power unit no question.
It would depend on how much of a power savings was involved: If the lower powered unit has a superior picture, and one could recoup the additional cost in power savings over a decade, that would make a difference.

Regarding your Hybrid, did you pay more for it than you would have to for the non hybrid model of the same car, and what was the motivating factor for your purchase?.
post #1362 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland
It would depend on how much of a power savings was involved: If the lower powered unit has a superior picture, and one could recoup the additional cost in power savings over a decade, that would make a difference.

Regarding your Hybrid, did you pay more for it than you would have to for the non hybrid model of the same car, and what was the motivating factor for your purchase?.
1) I liked the design, and it's roomy inside (Prius hatchback)
2) I like gadgets, and the Prius is sort of like one big gadget in some ways.
3) Gas savings, but just as importantly, tax credit. ie. It costs more, but you get a lot of that back from the government.
4) Women love it. (Seriously, they do, although that's not why I bought it. ;))

Maybe if we got tax breaks on SEDs, there'd be more incentive for Canon/Toshiba to produce them and for us to buy them. ;)

Now, although not all LCDs are lower power than all plasmas, my understanding is that LCDs are on average lower power than plasmas. If SED were to come out at the 42" size (which is what I'm interested in), it'd be competing against LCDs in terms of power usage. At 55" it'd likely be competing against plasma. So, in the smaller sizes, SED would be hard pressed to convince many people of the power benefits. They could have more success at the bigger sizes, but in truth, never once have I heard anyone (except on this board) say they were choosing TV A vs TV B because TV A uses less power. For 99.9% of consumers, it's basically a non-issue. Unless Toshiba/Canon were able to really market this angle well, I don't think it will matter much to the success (or failure) of SED in the consumer space.

P.S. Car analogies always suck. :D
post #1363 of 2847
Per published reports, including the current Consumer Reports, Hybrids are more expensive and may not save energy, when all things, including battery replacement, are considered. Few if any get the super mileage posted per the EPA calcs. Driving small diesels would actually save more energy and money. Maybe one day we'll see a hybrid diesel. With the current rules on low sulphur diesel fuel about to kick in, and the new pollution controls, diesels may soon pollute less than gassers.

SED has problems. Credibility is just one of them. First due out in 2005, then 2006, now 4th quarter 2007? Enjoy an HDTV now, don't wait, consider an SED if and when it hits market.
post #1364 of 2847
I can understand the feelings of those who are tired of waiting for SED, and need to, or want to upgrade now. Some of them having been tracking SED for a considerable time, and have grown weary of the litany of deferred product achievement dates. I did not start really looking into upgrading from my HD CRT until the last few months, so perhaps I have not suffered the same amount of expectations burnout that others have. That is why I am willing to wait until the next CES to see if the will have a 55 inch strutting it's stuff, or not.

That said, I need some historical product introduction data perspective from those of you have long tracked the emergence of Plasma, Large LCD, DLP and OLED displays. What I am interested in looking at, is what was the prevailing large screen technologys at the time each of them was introduced. For example: did DLP enter as a challenger to rear projection CRT, what was the initial price difference between comparable sizes of each, and did people pay a goodly amount more to get the DLP, and if so, what was the motivations for enough people to purchase DLP to have it make such quick market inroads.

Same thing for Plasma. What did it go up against, and what was the first generation price difference between it and what it was to supplant.

LCD same questions.

What I am looking for is information that would help in judging the recent declarations posted on this thread that SED will have to compete against Plasma, and LCD at the same price level, even if the picture quality is vastly superior to either. Did people pay a premium in the past for new display technology, over existing or did DLP, Plasma, LCD etc, have to come a the same price as the existing technology.

I am not posting this to solicit conjecture, I just would like those who have facts on the pricing history of the various displays, to put things in a pricing history perspective for me.
post #1365 of 2847
PQ is not that important to most people. Witness the sales of early LCDs. Poor, smeary PQ- and they actually cost more! But they were thin & flat.
post #1366 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy
1) I liked the design, and it's roomy inside (Prius hatchback)
2) I like gadgets, and the Prius is sort of like one big gadget in some ways.
3) Gas savings, but just as importantly, tax credit. ie. It costs more, but you get a lot of that back from the government.
4) Women love it. (Seriously, they do, although that's not why I bought it. ;))



P.S. Car analogies always suck. :D
Now you are making sense: Chick dig those who can go for a long time without running out of gas: ;) ;) Nudge Nudge, Know What I Mean eh, ;) ;) Nudge Nudge.

And do those you refer to in your #4 point, always provide the same result as your analogy? :eek: :o :eek:
post #1367 of 2847
Quote:
I did not start really looking into upgrading from my HD CRT until the last few months, so perhaps I have not suffered the same amount of expectations burnout that others have.
Same here. I have an HD CRT, and the image quality is very good. The only reason I started looking for a new TV is:

1) 1080p is here. It took long enough, but it's truly becoing mainstream now, even on smaller (< 40") units.
2) Intel Mac mini: It's fast enough to display most (but not all) 1080p H.264 material. I may buy the next iteration of this little unit. ie. I don't have one yet.
3) Blu-ray/PS3 (or HD-DVD), neither of which are available yet.
4) LCD actually looks half-decent now. I wouldn't have dreamed of saying that just 2 years ago.

Furthermore, I didn't at all expect SED to see the light of day in 2005 anyways. I was hoping for 2006, but I was suspecting that even it did come out in 2006, it would be out of my price range. It's the nature of the beast.

Quote:
What I am looking for is information that would help in judging the recent declarations posted on this thread that SED will have to compete against Plasma, and LCD at the same price level, even if the picture quality is vastly superior to either. Did people pay a premium in the past for new display technology, over existing or did DLP, Plasma, LCD etc, have to come a the same price as the existing technology.
Well, what did surprise me is that LCD in 2006 in the < 40" size is already being commoditized. I went shopping the other day and was struck by the fact that it's quite difficult to find good quality widescreen HD CRTs now. LCD is the new HD low end, and the prices are dropping quickly. It would appear this surprised Canon/Toshiba as well.

Better for us in that prices are lower, but it will be bad for us if it means SEDs won't be in this market, because this is where the bulk of the TV market lives.
post #1368 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy
Same here. I have an HD CRT, and the image quality is very good. The only reason I started looking for a new TV is:

1) 1080p is here. It took long enough, but it's truly becoing mainstream now, even on smaller (< 40") units.
2) Intel Mac mini: It's fast enough to display most (but not all) 1080p H.264 material. I may buy the next iteration of this little unit. ie. I don't have one yet.
3) Blu-ray/PS3 (or HD-DVD), neither of which are available yet.
4) LCD actually looks half-decent now. I wouldn't have dreamed of saying that just 2 years ago.

Furthermore, I didn't at all expect SED to see the light of day in 2005 anyways. I was hoping for 2006, but I was suspecting that even it did come out in 2006, it would be out of my price range. It's the nature of the beast.


Well, what did surprise me is that LCD in 2006 in the < 40" size is already being commoditized. I went shopping the other day and was struck by the fact that it's quite difficult to find good quality widescreen HD CRTs now. LCD is the new HD low end, and the prices are dropping quickly. It would appear this surprised Canon/Toshiba as well.

Better for us in that prices are lower, but it will be bad for us if it means SEDs won't be in this market, because this is where the bulk of the TV market lives.
Well it sounds like you are all set up for excellent HDTV viewing, as soon as you are able to dig you and your hybrid out from under that Chick Avalanche. :D

I guess what I was really looking for was some specifics on what the first generations of large Screen displays were been sold for, compared to what to what existed, and how much of a premium did the early adopters pay. I am just trying to get a sense of would that potential still exist for a SED display that was as great as this year's CES eyeballs reported it to be.
post #1369 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland
There is a growing green product demand, but it has to be linked to superior performance qualities.
What I look forward to is the day when people will demand green even if some performance is sacrificed.
post #1370 of 2847
I looked at a plasma 5-6 years ago... Sorry, I wasn't interested in spending $15000 on a TV which I felt had worse image quality than a $2500 CRT, even if the plasma was bigger.

I looked at LCD not too long after... The image quality simply sucked, and it was also horrendously expensive compared to CRT. Only now is LCD image quality becoming acceptable (and it's still not as good as CRT in many ways).

SED is the first new technology that is claiming to be truly superior in image quality at launch as compared to the previous technologies. Of course much of that is hype, but at least the prototypes seemed to live up to the hype. And I expect it to be very expensive at launch too, but some will buy them (assuming they do actually make it to retail). The question is how many people will buy. If it's too horrendously expensive, then few. If it's moderately more expensive, then I suspect many will buy it, especially they can break into the smaller screen sizes not too long after the first 55" monsters are released.

P.S. I can't say much about DLP, because I never really considered them. I've never liked any sort of rear-projection TV (and front projection is impractical for me). I like direct view TVs, and hence my interest in plasma, CRT, LCD, and SED.

P.P.S. The three major purchases I've made in my life that really impressed the women were:

1) Hybrid car <-- I bought before the big deluge of hybrid buyers.
2) Motorcycle <-- I bought an old crappy one, and the women still loved it.
3) iBook <-- I bought before the big deluge of Mac buyers.

Too bad the female interest in the hybrid and the iBook have waned now. Too common I guess. As for the motorcycle, I no longer have it. :( Completely impractical for me.
post #1371 of 2847
Known, my comments regarding iFire are fact, not opinion. Even if everything goes flawlessly from here, it's 2 years before you can buy a TV. There's simply no way around it. That's the minimum of how long it takes to go from sample panels to production television. While iFire's technology may be revolutionary, it hasn't invented a way to shorten product development cycles.

Bugs, green, etc. power consumption is not so cut and dried. There are already a number of tests showing the efficient plasmas at or below same-size LCDs in power consumption. The Sharp 65-inch with the backlight driven anywhere near sufficient for daytime use is an absolute power pig. Again, the lack of any production SED TVs makes it hard to take seriously claims they'll be lower powered than whatever they are competing with. That said, less power = good (imho). I drive an SUV, but it's a hybrid and get 70% better mileage than my last one (if we all did that...). I also have solar PV providing 2/3+ of my electricity...

Finally, the last comment about SED promising top-notch PQ at launch vs. plasma/LCD. While that's true, it's also one of those feats that has "never been done before." I hope they have the best picture on the market at launch, but absent a production model, it's again hope and conjecture that they will. And whatever they do, repeating Toshiba's LCOS fiasco (good picture, horrendous product quality) would be a rapid end to SED. So let's hope it's something very different.
post #1372 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by navychop
PQ is not that important to most people. Witness the sales of early LCDs. Poor, smeary PQ- and they actually cost more! But they were thin & flat.
Is it important to you?.
post #1373 of 2847
Just wanted to say I think you are all doing a great job of keeping this SED thread going. Please keep it up for the next two years, and then we can really talk about the new SED sets on the market :rolleyes:

Of course, any more announcements from Toshiba/Canon like the last one and you may have to keep it going for...say three, four years... :D

Bob

PS I drive a Corvette Z06 and it does burn some gas, BUT I don't have a power hungry plasma..... yet ;)
post #1374 of 2847
Reality is important to me. A product I can actually buy is important to me. A product I can watch in daylight is important to me. PQ yes, but not an elusive "real soon now" non-product. One should only wait for "the next big thing" if you have a way of enjoying HD today. Because there will always be another "next big thing." Endless waiting means losing out the enjoyment of what is available today.

Of course, you should understand I got burned by Samsung and their DLPs. Product delays, cancellations and delivery of a model that did not have the announced features. After the 4th purchase decision went south due to non delivery, I moved on. So I've been thru this route before. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. And burned it.

Several months ago I bought a JVC D-ILA (LCoS)- better than DLP because I don't have to worry about my family or guests developing headaches or rainbow sensitivity. The JVC is 61" of great picture. And around 2010 I'll buy a better, cheaper, maybe larger HDTV, and it'll probably hang on the wall. It might be SED- not much hope OLED will be out there. If SEDs actually arrive in any quantities in 2008, they may be down in price in 2010 or so. But the repeated delays bring back unpleasant memories and introduce doubt as to it's viability in the marketplace.
post #1375 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy
I looked at a plasma 5-6 years ago... Sorry, I wasn't interested in spending $15000 on a TV which I felt had worse image quality than a $2500 CRT, even if the plasma was bigger.

I looked at LCD not too long after... The image quality simply sucked, and it was also horrendously expensive compared to CRT. Only now is LCD image quality becoming acceptable (and it's still not as good as CRT in many ways).

SED is the first new technology that is claiming to be truly superior in image quality at launch as compared to the previous technologies. Of course much of that is hype, but at least the prototypes seemed to live up to the hype. And I expect it to be very expensive at launch too, but some will buy them (assuming they do actually make it to retail). The question is how many people will buy. If it's too horrendously expensive, then few. If it's moderately more expensive, then I suspect many will buy it, especially they can break into the smaller screen sizes not too long after the first 55" monsters are released.

P.S. I can't say much about DLP, because I never really considered them. I've never liked any sort of rear-projection TV (and front projection is impractical for me). I like direct view TVs, and hence my interest in plasma, CRT, LCD, and SED.

P.P.S. The three major purchases I've made in my life that really impressed the women were:

1) Hybrid car <-- I bought before the big deluge of hybrid buyers.
2) Motorcycle <-- I bought an old crappy one, and the women still loved it.
3) iBook <-- I bought before the big deluge of Mac buyers.

Too bad the female interest in the hybrid and the iBook have waned now. Too common I guess. As for the motorcycle, I no longer have it. :( Completely impractical for me.
Well that is actually encouraging for SED potential. You would not pay the enormous prices for the early plasma and LCD sets.
Yet, enough consumers must have so that they were able to establish a market beachhead.

Regarding women's waning interest; 'twas ever thus, except for their enduring infatuation with expensive pieces of polished carbon.Status is encoded in the DNA. Toshiba should adopt the marketing slogan: Never go to bed with a man who doesn't own a SED. :D
post #1376 of 2847
"...Never go to bed with a man who doesn't own a SED. ..."

Now that could cause us a LOT of trouble.


And might sell a LOT of SEDs.
post #1377 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by navychop
"...Never go to bed with a man who doesn't own a SED. ..."

Now that could cause us a LOT of trouble.


And might sell a LOT of SEDs.
Yes; that is why I coined the slogan. SEX trumps common sense.

I agree with you on DLP. I can not watch one. It seems to me that unless they do bring the triple LED sets, which are suppose to replace the lamp and color wheel, to market, that they will not remain a viable product for very long. Well,keep the faith. Past crop failures tend to make us doubt the coming harvest. We are in the midst of a digital media revolution, and in some ways the tail has been wagging the dog. The digital transmission and storage technology was ahead of the display development. With the HDTV conversion drawing near, but still a lot of non HD product being transmitted, a lot of people are in limbo. The manufacturers know that there is a killing to be made, so they have rushed a lot of unrefined product to market, and many who have been burned by it, are understandably reluctant to rush into proposing to what might turn into another run away bride. SED might be the love of one's life, or it may already have purchased a one way Greyhound ticket to God knows where. If she doesn't show up at CES, I am not going to buy the ring.
post #1378 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by aud19
Even better, the RL is AWD :D

Maybe SED will sell better (when it finally arrives) if it also adds AWD :eek: :p

The world's first all-weather traction display!!!!! :D
The wait for a RWD Acura will make the waiting time for SED seem like minutes. I guess what I am trying to imply is that there will likely never be a RWD Acura. :)
post #1379 of 2847
http://www.monitor4u.co.kr/english/n...=1253&contdiv=

Quote:
Fujii describes the SED TV''s picture quality as "having more potential than any other TV panel technology," and expects the pricing to receive "a 10-20% premium over the price of PDP and LCD TVs." On the other hand, to realize a panel with the SED''s genuine picture quality and a cost no more than a 10-20% premium over PDP and LCD TV prices, "The Hiratsuka pilot line is not productive enough," he said.
post #1380 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by navychop
PQ is not that important to most people. Witness the sales of early LCDs. Poor, smeary PQ- and they actually cost more! But they were thin & flat.
and these are the types of people Toshiba want, NOT a small minority of videoplhiles.

They want the potbellied middle-aged man at costco, the bored housewife with a mid life crisis seeking to validate her meaningless existence with a plasma housing pixels the size of dimes

They want critical mass

"They can't make it at a price they can sell it at" is an economic reality.

Why did everyone get out of manufacturing CRT projectors? Was it because a superior technology intervened?
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